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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
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twotooto

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Humans being attracted to the opposite sex is intrinsically linked to the human race's continuing existence, amongst other things. It is biological. It is not a social construct.

Humans making themselves more attractive to the opposite sex is also biological. It is also not a social construct.

How humans go about making themselves attractive and the manner in which they make themselves more attractive could manifest itself due to, and be influenced by, social norms and standards, or, if you like, social constructs.
 
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Humans being attracted to the opposite sex is intrinsically linked to the human race's continuing existence, amongst other things. It is biological. It is not a social construct.

Humans making themselves more attractive to the opposite sex is also biological. It is also not a social construct.

How humans go about making themselves attractive and the manner in which they make themselves more attractive could manifest itself due to social norms, or, if you like, social constructs.

And the very values we assign males and females with respect to one another is also a social construct. And going further by looping back to the thread premise, the values of those 'in between' or transitioning between the sexes. I think we are all human, ergo we all have the same base value. A transgendered person is not worth less or more than me in the eyes of society and never should be. Ditto females. Ditto everyone else.

EDIT: I did not mean to infer that twotooto held the belief that females or transgender were worth any less than males. My mistake and I apologise for any misunderstanding.
 
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Oct 2, 2007
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It's sort of weird how archaelogists looking at Paleolithic grave sites can quickly tell whether a body is male or female simply based on what they are buried with. How do they do that if it is all constructed!

Are you genuinely that stupid? Are you arguing that human burial rites are not socially constructed?

AFL is socially constructed, as is NRL. I can tell the two things apart by looking at the type ball they both use. Presuming I know the social construction of what that football represents of course.

If Humans became extinct, and what that ball represents became extinct with us, then how could they tell the value of that ball or what it represents? Its a stitched together bit of animal hide.

I can dig up a grave now of a child that died in the last 30 years, and if the child is buried with a pink dress and barbie dolls, I can be fairly confident it was a girl, because I understand that in the context of that childs death (culture and historical period), at that time and place we socially constructed 'pink dresses and barbie dolls' to mean 'girl'.

I'm finding this thread hilarious. You're singling out socially constructed things in an effort to falsify social construction.
 

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Are you genuinely that stupid? Are you arguing that human burial rites are not socially constructed?

AFL is socially constructed, as is NRL. I can tell the two things apart by looking at the type ball they both use. Presuming I know the social construction of what that football represents of course.

If Humans became extinct, and what that ball represents became extinct with us, then how could they tell the value of that ball or what it represents? Its a stitched together bit of animal hide.

I can dig up a grave now of a child that died in the last 30 years, and if the child is buried with a pink dress and barbie dolls, I can be fairly confident it was a girl, because I understand that in the context of that childs death (culture and historical period), at that time and place we socially constructed 'pink dresses and barbie dolls' to mean 'girl'.

I'm finding this thread hilarious. You're singling out socially constructed things in an effort to falsify social construction.
At what point in human (pre-)history did things stop being biological and start being socially constructed? If they are exhibited in burial rites of 10,000 years ago then what does this tell us? Tribes of no more than 50 people had socially constructed gender roles? Please.
 
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No, I am saying that the qualities are not fundamental, and they don't need to be, they just need to be relative to each other.

If the qualities are not fundamental properties of the object itself (such as mass, or size) then they're socially constructed.

Gold has mass. Gravity exists independent of human social existence right. However the value of gold (in terms of dollars) is a socially constructed property of gold. It has no meaning outside of human social construction and agreement. It's not some inherent property of gold.
 

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If the qualities are not fundamental properties of the object itself (such as mass, or size) then they're socially constructed.

Gold has mass. Gravity exists independent of human social existence right. However the value of gold (in terms of dollars) is a socially constructed property of gold. It has no meaning outside of human social construction and agreement. It's not some inherent property of gold.
Gold is rare in the earths crust, highly ductile, malleable, and does not corrode. And it is the only yellow metal. Its value absolutely depends on its innate physical properties.
 
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At what point in human (pre-)history did things stop being biological and start being socially constructed? If they are exhibited in burial rites of 10,000 years ago then what does this tell us?

Huh?

Lions prides are social groups with their own social rules. There is an Alpha, and everyone knows who it is. Ditto wolf packs, and ditto ants nests, which have their own social rules. Ditto a flock of birds.

You do get that right? Homo Sapiens are incredibly socially complex creatures, but we arent the only creatures that exhibit social rules and norms and social behaviors.
 

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Huh?

Lions prides are social groups with their own social rules. There is an Alpha, and everyone knows who it is. Ditto wolf packs, and ditto ants nests, which have their own social rules. Ditto a flock of birds.

You do get that right? Homo Sapiens are incredibly socially complex creatures, but we arent the only creatures that exhibit social rules and norms and social behaviors.
So ants nests, with queens, drones and workers, are socially constructed?
 
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You think it was a thing in the Neolithic? Dunno if they had time for paraphilias back then.

https://www.academia.edu/10360960/P...rt_Genital_Scarification_Piercing_and_Tattoos

...European Paleolithic art shows decoration explicitly representedin a high proportion of portable art objects with a phallic form that have survived to our day. Decorative rituals of male genital tattooing, piercing and scarification may have been practiced during Paleolithic times.

Drawings, carvings and sculptures from the Upper Paleolithic showing human beings are scarce with fewer than a hundred males depicted, of which approximately a third are represented in erection. Moreover, a few phalli carved on horn, bone or stone with variable morphology have survived to our day and are all represented in erection. This collection also reveals the existence of a culture beyond frontier limits that explicitly worshipped the male genital organ.

Although the evidence available throughout millennia is still sketchy, erection appears clearly represented in Paleolithic art in almost all un-equivocally masculine figures and in many everyday, decorative, portable art objects. These pieces show evidence of a culture that favored preputial retraction... [/quote]
 

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https://www.academia.edu/10360960/P...rt_Genital_Scarification_Piercing_and_Tattoos

...European Paleolithic art shows decoration explicitly representedin a high proportion of portable art objects with a phallic form that have survived to our day. Decorative rituals of male genital tattooing, piercing and scarification may have been practiced during Paleolithic times.

Drawings, carvings and sculptures from the Upper Paleolithic showing human beings are scarce with fewer than a hundred males depicted, of which approximately a third are represented in erection. Moreover, a few phalli carved on horn, bone or stone with variable morphology have survived to our day and are all represented in erection. This collection also reveals the existence of a culture beyond frontier limits that explicitly worshipped the male genital organ.

Although the evidence available throughout millennia is still sketchy, erection appears clearly represented in Paleolithic art in almost all un-equivocally masculine figures and in many everyday, decorative, portable art objects. These pieces show evidence of a culture that favored preputial retraction...
[/QUOTE]
Is that a fetish? Looks more like ritualistic scarification, like circumcision.
 

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Hahaha!

Now you're attributing 'valueable' as an objective quality to gold, that exists outside of our social agreement that it's valuable!

This is hilarious!
If two distinct groups of humans, separated by millennia and oceans, each determine gold to be the highest store of value, what does this tell us about the intrinsic nature of gold?
 
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If two distinct groups of humans, separated by millennia and oceans, each determine gold to be the highest store of value, what does this tell us about the intrinsic nature of gold?

Absolutely nothing!

It just tells us that two groups of humans both agreed that gold was 'valuable'.

The monetary value of an object is a subjective evaluation of the object. It's reached via social consensus, it's self evidently not an objective property of the object!

Good Lord, and to think you claimed to be a Scientist.
 
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Is that a fetish? Looks more like ritualistic scarification, like circumcision.

Some of it is ritual decoration. They have also uncovered instances of worship. Back then it would have been almost intrinsically a biological thing; Strength, power, virility. That is what mattered back then, to that society in that point of time. They built a mode of worship, including ritual scarifications and circumcision, around it.

Again, biology was the seed, but human thought made it far bigger than what it was. We gave it value.
 

twotooto

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And the very values we assign males and females with respect to one another is also a social construct. And going further by looping back to the thread premise, the values of those 'in between' or transitioning between the sexes. I think we are all human, ergo we all have the same base value. A transgendered person is not worth less or more than me in the eyes of society and never should be. Ditto females. Ditto everyone else.

Sure, we can assign any values we like with respect to one another. However, biologically, these social constructs/values mean sweet barry o.

In terms of biology. In terms of reproducing so that the continuing existence of the human race is assured, it is a biological imperative that a male and female are required in order to produce a child. 'Social construct' has zero to do with it. It is therefore biological.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not really sure where you're going with that. Pretty sure I have never said a transgender person, or female, or anyone else isn't human or any 'more' or 'less' than anyone else.

I think wires are being crossed here. Maybe go back and read the post of mine that you quoted again.
 

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Absolutely nothing!

It just tells us that two groups of humans both agreed that gold was 'valuable'.

The monetary value of an object is a subjective evaluation of the object. It's reached via social consensus, it's self evidently not an objective property of the object!

Good Lord, and to think you claimed to be a Scientist.
Why would they separately reach such a conclusion if there wasn’t an intrinsic quality to gold?

Whether other species understand that quality is immaterial. Other species can’t count or understand the Boltzmann equation.
 
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