Opinion Who is currently our best midfielder?

[WCErevival]

I thought Gaffs game was average despite his good workrate and high disposal count. Half of his disposals were around the corner hack floaters. Priddis used to get strips torn off him for that.

 

[BeornJ]

Can someone please explain player ratings to me.

They have Gaff down as the fifth worst player of the collingwood game. Fifth worst out of both teams!

He got equal high contested possessions.... I just don't get it

 

[avishka5]

Maybe not with one possession. But when he gets it 10 more times than the other two guys and 13 of those touches are contested, his overall impact is top -shelf.

Gaff getting 13 contested possessions is like boots/ Yeo doing 15km in a game. It will happen a couple times but not consistently.

 

[Candiru]

Gaff getting 13 contested possessions is like boots/ Yeo doing 15km in a game. It will happen a couple times but not consistently.

If consistency is your thing, probably worth noting that Gaff is also the most consistent of the three. Maybe give it a month or so for people to remember what Gaff brings to the table.

 

[WCErevival]

Can someone please explain player ratings to me.

They have Gaff down as the fifth worst player of the collingwood game. Fifth worst out of both teams!

He got equal high contested possessions.... I just don't get it

They measure impact and effectiveness on each disposal. So if you have an ineffective disposal its actually counted as a negative. Their rating kind of backs up my opinion although I definitely wouldn't have rated him that low. More midrange like our other mids. His lack of goals, assists and tackles hurt his rating too.

 

[BeornJ]

Oh that makes sense. Cheers.

Yeah I would have had him mid range too. Def not his best game.
His role means he will often get low rating. The amount of times he is the outlet, someone shovles the ball to him and he kicks around the corner as someone pelts him... That is important but wont get him a high rating

 

[WCE_phil]

I think of Gaff as a game saving midfielder. He busts his gut, gets to space, gets the outlet ball and generally disposes of it tidily. His role is very important to our structure but the role in itself is nowhere near as hard to replace as the roles of a burst midfielder, an intercept key defender like mcgovern or a dominant key forward.

In so many ways if you have great runners who work hard defensively and a mature side you can overcome the loss of gaff or players of a similar ilk. I thought we were done last year when nicnat went down, then i thought we were done when gaff went down and i was certain of it after we lost shep. The truth is that guys like Masten, Redden, Sheed or even say Josh Smith can play the role that Gaff plays. They may not play that role quite as well but the defensive side of his game in particular is about being an outlet and then releasing the ball to more dynamic players. I listed Masten and Smith as examples of runners who will play a similar role and also because both are not a touch on gaff however masten in particular if you discount his abhorrent ability to overestimate the amount of time he has and his ability to out-muscle other players (it's his technique that is wrong not overall strength) can play the role just as well. We have seen Sheed and Redden combine to play a combination of inside mid + gaff's role while gaff was out and perform at a level as good as or better than gaff does.

It is why this role is consistently played by less dynamic players with less hurt factor than the primary central mids. In the same way that Priddis was very vanilla as an inside mid and it allowed him to be run off by his opponent, coaches will try and tag Shuey or Yeo instead of gaff because they see him and his role as being of less importance and less influence on the result. Very much in the same way as taggers themselves are lesser players than the players they guard.

Please I don't want people to think that i see gaff as a poor player, someone who should be fazed out or anything like that. I see him as being close to the best at his role in the league but I just don't see his role winning us games directly. Shuey, Yeo, Hurn, McGovern, Kennedy, Nicnat directly win us games. I just have Gaff pegged as being at the top of the next tier down. Along with guys like Darling, Sheed and Sheppard their absolute best can have this effect but imo can't be relied upon to win games. It's 5-15 on a list importance rather than top 5 imo.

 

[stinger05]

That's an excellent post. You're right on every point.

 

[Candiru]

I think of Gaff as a game saving midfielder. He busts his gut, gets to space, gets the outlet ball and generally disposes of it tidily. His role is very important to our structure but the role in itself is nowhere near as hard to replace as the roles of a burst midfielder, an intercept key defender like mcgovern or a dominant key forward.

Underselling it.

 

[WCErevival]

I think of Gaff as a game saving midfielder. He busts his gut, gets to space, gets the outlet ball and generally disposes of it tidily. His role is very important to our structure but the role in itself is nowhere near as hard to replace as the roles of a burst midfielder, an intercept key defender like mcgovern or a dominant key forward.

In so many ways if you have great runners who work hard defensively and a mature side you can overcome the loss of gaff or players of a similar ilk. I thought we were done last year when nicnat went down, then i thought we were done when gaff went down and i was certain of it after we lost shep. The truth is that guys like Masten, Redden, Sheed or even say Josh Smith can play the role that Gaff plays. They may not play that role quite as well but the defensive side of his game in particular is about being an outlet and then releasing the ball to more dynamic players. I listed Masten and Smith as examples of runners who will play a similar role and also because both are not a touch on gaff however masten in particular if you discount his abhorrent ability to overestimate the amount of time he has and his ability to out-muscle other players (it's his technique that is wrong not overall strength) can play the role just as well. We have seen Sheed and Redden combine to play a combination of inside mid + gaff's role while gaff was out and perform at a level as good as or better than gaff does.

It is why this role is consistently played by less dynamic players with less hurt factor than the primary central mids. In the same way that Priddis was very vanilla as an inside mid and it allowed him to be run off by his opponent, coaches will try and tag Shuey or Yeo instead of gaff because they see him and his role as being of less importance and less influence on the result. Very much in the same way as taggers themselves are lesser players than the players they guard.

Please I don't want people to think that i see gaff as a poor player, someone who should be fazed out or anything like that. I see him as being close to the best at his role in the league but I just don't see his role winning us games directly. Shuey, Yeo, Hurn, McGovern, Kennedy, Nicnat directly win us games. I just have Gaff pegged as being at the top of the next tier down. Along with guys like Darling, Sheed and Sheppard their absolute best can have this effect but imo can't be relied upon to win games. It's 5-15 on a list importance rather than top 5 imo.

Complety agree. Good player and is a decent cog in our team. But when people start saying things like he is a top 5 AFL mid and is our most important player etc I wonder if they are watching the same player I am.

 

[Godfather32]

Underselling it.

Well we won a grand final without Gaff so that kind of proves he's fairly easily replaced

 

[Candiru]

Well we won a grand final without Gaff so that kind of proves he's fairly easily replaced

Like Naitanui?

It shows that winning the flag last year was a truly remarkable achievement. It doesn't demonstrate that Gaff is meh.

 

[Godfather32]

Like Naitanui?

It shows that winning the flag last year was a truly remarkable achievement. It doesn't demonstrate that Gaff is meh.

Never said Gaff is meh. Just proves the point that his type of midfielder is more easily replaced than a Shuey/Yeo type.

 

[Candiru]

Never said Gaff is meh. Just proves the point that his type of midfielder is more easily replaced than a Shuey/Yeo type.

But you don't know what would have happened had Gaff played and Yeo been absent. Do you assume we'd have been worse off?

Does it also prove that Naitanui is easily replaced? We won it without him so he can't be that important.

 

[Godfather32]

But you don't know what would have happened had Gaff played and Yeo been absent. Do you assume we'd have been worse off?

Does it also prove that Naitanui is easily replaced? We won it without him so he can't be that important.

Yep because Yeo is a better player than Gaff.
As much as I love Nic Nat we did replace him (albeit with a different type of ruckman).

 

[Candiru]

Yep because Yeo is a better player than Gaff.

As much as I love Nic Nat we did replace him (albeit with a different type of ruckman).

Your opinion that Yeo is better is its own proof: "Yeo is better because we won it all without Gaff and we couldn't have done that without Yeo because Yeo is better." For the record, I also voted for Yeo here but I'm not certain about it. I guess I look at his two B&Fs and run with that.

But I don't think we should draw any conclusions about how important players are based on what happened in the last four weeks of last season. The fact we won it without Gaff or Naitanui doesn't mean they're less important. It means it was an exceptional performance to win it without them.

I think it's an open question who is our most important player, but that's not necessarily the same as best, which is also an open question. I don't think any of the arguments either way on either of those questions can be resolved by simply pointing to the last three games of 2018.

 

[Godfather32]

Your opinion that Yeo is better is its own proof: "Yeo is better because we won it all without Gaff and we couldn't have done that without Yeo because Yeo is better." For the record, I also voted for Yeo here but I'm not certain about it. I guess I look at his two B&Fs and run with that.

But I don't think we should draw any conclusions about how important players are based on what happened in the last four weeks of last season. The fact we won it without Gaff or Naitanui doesn't mean they're less important. It means it was an exceptional performance to win it without them.

I think it's an open question who is our most important player, but that's not necessarily the same as best, which is also an open question. I don't think any of the arguments either way on either of those questions can be resolved by simply pointing to the last three games of 2018.

I don't think Yeo is a better player because we won it without Gaff, I think Yeo (and Shuey who I voted as our best) is better because I believe they have more impact on the game than Gaff. Us winning without Gaff just reinforces (in my mind) that the type of player Gaff is can be replaced more easily than a more dynamic and damaging type (Yeo/Shuey).

 

[Candiru]

I don't think Yeo is a better player because we won it without Gaff, I think Yeo (and Shuey who I voted as our best) is better because I believe they have more impact on the game than Gaff.

So winning it without Gaff is neither here nor there.

 

[WCE_phil]

So winning it without Gaff is neither here nor there.

This may actually genuinely upset people but in so many ways opposition coaches would have seen the way we played and had structures in place countering the way gaff in particular plays and his running patterns because they have seen it multiple times before. They hadn't really had an opportunity of seeing how we structure up our midfield and who plays what role and in what manner without him due to his durability and ability to back up week after week. Gaff being out both due to emotional motivation to do it for him, nicnat, shep etc as well as through our opposition not being able to coach as well through lack of past experience may have directly led to us winning the premiership.

It's all with 20/20 hindsight which makes it impossible to compare as you don't know what happens if the chips are put down the other way but if you take the grand final and all those one on one contests between schofield and de goey and replace schofield with Shep then I genuinely believe that Shep doesn't perform at the level schofield did on the day. In a straight one on one with it coming in overhead Schoey is stronger, taller and just as athletic. The ball coming in long and high suited schofield and shep being out suited us in that situation.

 

[Candiru]

This may actually genuinely upset people but in so many ways opposition coaches would have seen the way we played and had structures in place countering the way gaff in particular plays and his running patterns because they have seen it multiple times before. They hadn't really had an opportunity of seeing how we structure up our midfield and who plays what role and in what manner without him due to his durability and ability to back up week after week. Gaff being out both due to emotional motivation to do it for him, nicnat, shep etc as well as through our opposition not being able to coach as well through lack of past experience may have directly led to us winning the premiership.

So now we were actually better off without Gaff. OK.

 

[Godfather32]

So winning it without Gaff is neither here nor there.

It's all there in my post, I can't be arsed going round in circles with you

 

[avishka5]

I agree with WCE Phil but Gaff is being a undersold a bit above. His tank and work rate set him apart from most outside players. He genuinely plays multiple roles for us throughout a game. He not only the outlet from defence for us but he would also play a vital role in the chain going forward. Not many players have one player doing that. Adelaide for an example have T.Lynch as that linkman going forward and Laird getting out of defence.

Gaff also goes into stoppages and can wi his own ball and have an impact at stoppages.

That said Boots and Yeo are way more important to our side.

 

[Candiru]

I agree with WCE Phil but Gaff is being a undersold a bit above. His tank and work rate set him apart from most outside players. He genuinely plays multiple roles for us throughout a game. He not only the outlet from defence for us but he would also play a vital role in the chain going forward. Not many players have one player doing that. Adelaide for an example have T.Lynch as that linkman going forward and Laird getting out of defence.

Gaff also goes into stoppages and can wi his own ball and have an impact at stoppages.

That said Boots and Yeo are way more important to our side.

Who is the most consistent of the three?

 

[dave123]

Comparing gaff to Shuey is hard ...both different

For mine but maybe I’m old school gaff is our best midfielder

Just my choice

 

[avishka5]

Who is the most consistent of the three?

Gaff but he's not our best.