Player Watch Pick #16 (2016) - Todd Marshall

[Butters Made Me Do It]

Macca19 We weren't calling Marshall lazy before he was drafted by/conditioned by Port either. He was a hard worker with good follow up after any failed attempt.

 

[OneGreatClub]

It shows that Brisbane backed Hipwood in for a string of games to get to that 50 mark and are now reaping the rewards.

The parent thing is a tragedy but not hugely relevant to anything I said.

I don’t think this is true. Maybe first preseason unencumbered by cricket?

Marshall was a highly rated prospect right throughout his draft year.

We have dropped him for only one game so far this year. Last year.. we’ll you know the story there

 

[Powerade 08]

Hipwood was drafted at the end of 2015, selected halfway through the 2016 season and has missed 2 games since. That's what backing in a developing key forward looks like. We haven't had a developing key forward play more than 5 games consecutively in the Hinkley era.

Yes ‘backing in’ a guy who has averaged almost 3 shots at goal a game from day dot, who is showing year-on-year improvement and who has been their leading goal kicker from debut to now is a real master stroke. Took a lot of courage.

As for this Rutogolea from Geelong, he will be back in the VFL soon too.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Yes ‘backing in’ a guy who has averaged almost 3 shots at goal a game from day dot, who is showing year-on-year improvement and who has been their leading goal kicker from debut to now is a real master stroke. Took a lot of courage.

As for this Rutogolea from Geelong, he will be back in the VFL soon too.

He's shown year on year improvement because he's been played in every game. He's hardly been dominant week in week out like you're suggesting either.

He finished his first season with 4 goalless games, averaging 3 marks and 1 goal a game over 10 straight games to finish the season.

He started 2017 with a couple of reasonable 2 goal games, followed by rounds 3 and 4 where he had 2 and 4 touches respectively. You can't tell me with a straight face that he would have held his place in the side after those 2 performances under Hinkley. But at Brisbane he was backed in and found some form before becoming their spearhead and one of the more promising key forwards in the league.

Marshall has had some mitigating circumstances over his first couple of seasons, but he's fit, it's time to back him in and give him the gametime he needs for his development. If we can't take the good with the bad, then we'll never develop a KPF again. In the meantime, playing him will actually help us win games.

 

[Papa G]

Aside from being tall, Hipwood and Marshall are nothing like each other. Hipwood plays on edge. Marshall is miles away from that.

This is similar to Butcher though for different reasons. Marshall is a much more talented player, but is 10 times as laconic as Butch was. Noone could ever call Butcher lazy.

Todd needs to seriously work on his forward craft otherwise he'll go the same way. He needs to learn to get involved, stay in the game, to actually ******* lead and do something other than be 3 seconds too late to react to things that are happening around him.

I hope he gets back in the side in the next few weeks

This is bullshit. Hinkleyesque type bullshit. The kid needs to be backed in. The kid needs to be pumped up. We are a better side with him in it. Dropping him to the SANFL achieves nothing. Playing Sam Gray in his spot achieves nothing. He must play every game.

 

[JUSTWORK]

Butcher's problem was confidence. He had an awkward action but they went through the middle. He developed the yips, hardly an uncommon affliction, and spent the next 4 years under Hinkley having the confidence systematically beaten out of him so that Jake Neade and Kane Mitchell could rack up a combined 101 games for the club.

We were always structurally better with Butcher in the side, because he was a packmarking behemoth who would demand the ball at the hot spot and suck in extra defenders to the contest, creating heaps of space for the likes of Gray and Wingard to do their magic in. Despite his obvious and undeniable set shot kicking problems, his presence made us a better football team.

He never played more than 5 games consecutively for the club.

Other clubs just back these guys in and they sort it out. Not at Ports.

Id love to come out and blame hikley and think he was the reason Butcher didn't male it, simple truth is he wasn't good enough and didn't want it enough.

You know what, we probably we're structurally better with Butcher and if Marshall could mark the ball like that and command the ball he'd absolutley be in the side but he isn't going close to doing that.

And Hinkleys love afair with Sam Gray and Neade is hardly just at the expense of young talls, how about Impey over Trengove for the WCE final ? How about the opportunities they got over say Trengove last year ? Or guys like Palmer or Snelling ?

Just picking you up on this.

Bullshit.

Key forward is the most difficult position to develop on the ground. The time to develop a key forward is when you don't already have 3 of them playing at a good AFL standard, which has been our entire AFL journey if we're honest.

If we had a fit and firing Dixon, we should STILL be picking Marshall in a tall forward line consisting of Dixon, Marshall and Ryder as the resting ruckman, with Westhoff released to play on the wing where he is the most dangerous.

Because Hinkley has not made developing a key forward a priority, we now have 0 natural tall forwards in the side, and our marking targets are made up of an aging ruckman and an ageless tall utility who is wasted there. So because we've been ~so focused on winning~ over the past 4 years where we've played 1 solitary final, we managed to lose again, kicking the ball straight to a middling Josh Walker 11 times in the process.

Its Marshalls form Justifies selection absolutely if not then no.

 

[Macca19]

Macca19 We weren't calling Marshall lazy before he was drafted by/conditioned by Port either. He was a hard worker with good follow up after any failed attempt.

I know we weren't. He was also a naturally big contested mark too which he's shown zero of. He'll get there, probably.

 

[Macca19]

He started 2017 with a couple of reasonable 2 goal games, followed by rounds 3 and 4 where he had 2 and 4 touches respectively. You can't tell me with a straight face that he would have held his place in the side after those 2 performances under Hinkley. But at Brisbane he was backed in and found some form before becoming their spearhead and one of the more promising key forwards in the league.

They are different circumstances. I'm not sure why we are comparing the two to be honest.

 

[Macca19]

This is bullshit. Hinkleyesque type bullshit. The kid needs to be backed in. The kid needs to be pumped up. We are a better side with him in it. Dropping him to the SANFL achieves nothing. Playing Sam Gray in his spot achieves nothing. He must play every game.

Its fact. I'd prefer him stay in the side and work on what he needs to work on.

 

[Macca19]

I'd also add that the reason Brisbane have Hipwood is largely because the Lions use multiple ok round picks on key forwards and shifted on the ones that weren't working for them (eg Schache).

Port's KPF drafting strategy over our AFL journey has been `use one late first rounder every 7 years and hope'

Whilst I agree 100% with your thoughts on our drafting strategy, the reason Brisbane have Hipwood is because he was an academy player. He was never going anywhere else.

 

[Janus]

Howard was bumped out because he is not expecting the contact (dumb football) not because hipwood is any kind of monster forward with any strength.

You need core strength to move a 90+ kg off balance.

Having core strength doesn’t mean you have to be a monster forward, it means your COG becomes lower which improves your balance.

If two objects of the same height but one with a lower centre of gravity collide, the object with the higher COG will be thrown off balance regardless of mass if the other object hits with any sort of velocity at the right angle. Basic physics.

That’s why being a key forward isn’t necessarily about being super strong, but about positioning. But you do need a strong core and a low COG, especially if you are tall.

I don’t care about contested marks - to me they are gravy. The meat is being able to position yourself one on one and use core strength to edge a player under the ball at the right time and mark it uncontested. It’s being able to create separation from your opponent by using core strength to push off from them on a lead.

Marshall has shown me enough to suggest he is tracking fine. Playing against key backs that he’ll have to play on for the next ten years while he’s out of form would have hindered his development IMO - it was bad enough that Carlton’s backs took him to the cleaners on a day that was set up for him to be amazing.

I’m not worried at all.

 

[bomberclifford]

I don't want this to come out the wrong way but does anyone think Marshall has lost motivation for the game due to the loss of his parents. I mean in terms of him maybe having possible depression due to his grief.

No doubt he would be in a depressed state still due to grief.
These things can take a long time to heal, and sometimes they don't ever.

While I generally agree with the consensus that we needed to back him in, this is based purely on football thinking.
There is a possibility that giving him some time out is part of the club's management of his mental health.

 

[Capital Power]

Imagine if we'd backed Todd in vs Brisbane to help rebuild some confidence/motivation. Let's say he kicks 0.0, manages only a handful of involvements, and we lose by 17. Are we better or worse off in this scenario?

I'd suggest this is a normal part of KPF development. The off days outnumber the on. All we've done instead is further dent his already fragile (through absolutely no fault of his own) confidence.

 

[MrMeaner]

No doubt he would be in a depressed state still due to grief.
These things can take a long time to heal, and sometimes they don't ever.

While I generally agree with the consensus that we needed to back him in, this is based purely on football thinking.
There is a possibility that giving him some time out is part of the club's management of his mental health.

If we are managing his mental health by playing him in the SANFL, we should lawyer up for a OHS claim.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I'm sick of reading 'if his form warrants it'. His form warrants selection unless and until there's somebody in better form IN HIS POSITION. If that's Frampton, then I still think on the long run we're better off sticking with the blue chip prospect, but in the short term at least it's fine. But it's definitely not Sam Gray.

If Ryder (Dixon) copped an injury and Lycett (Marshall) had a couple of 'mares in a row, do we drop Lycett for Sam Gray and not bother with a ruck? Of course we don't. So why should KPF's be treated any differently?

 

[Andre]

If Ryder (Dixon) copped an injury and Lycett (Marshall) had a couple of 'mares in a row, do we drop Lycett for Sam Gray and not bother with a ruck? Of course we don't. So why should KPF's be treated any differently?

Since when? Jackson Trengove, Westhoff and Dixon in the ruck all say hi. Any position requiring a tall is only filled if there's a clear standout, smalls can be carried though. Lycett would only stay in, in this hypothetical because there's a premium attached to traded in players, that the coach feels ownership there, where as drafted players is the work of the scouts and others across the year, so Hinkley rule 1 - A small unless absolutely can't be avoided, is mitigated.

 

[El_Scorcho]

They are different circumstances. I'm not sure why we are comparing the two to be honest.

I didn't bring up Hipwood, but my point is that he's been backed in throughout some poor games of football where he's had absolutely no impact.

If Marshall was at any other club and plays exactly as he did in rounds 1 & 2, he keeps his spot for round 3. Not here.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Macca19 We weren't calling Marshall lazy before he was drafted by/conditioned by Port either. He was a hard worker with good follow up after any failed attempt.

At the Member's Convention this year in one of the videos, Marshall's workrate at training to chase and follow up to create a goalscoring opportunity was used as an example of the importance of this part of the game. This sort of workrate is being positively reinforced.

So he's not being coached to be lazy.

Sometimes players go out of form and they stop doing the little things that matter. It happens across all sports. Then it clicks and they get back to doing everything that will make them a success.

 

[Jonts]

The comment that we don't see him as a KPF is scary. Whilst I can see how he plays like a tall medium forward, looking at his development with that lense is hugely detrimental to his development and speaks poorly of our list management.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I didn't bring up Hipwood, but my point is that he's been backed in throughout some poor games of football where he's had absolutely no impact.

If Marshall was at any other club and plays exactly as he did in rounds 1 & 2, he keeps his spot for round 3. Not here.

I understand the cold logic of what they did (even if it is differentially applied), but I agree he should have stayed in the side.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Butcher was a dud I wouldn't give him 5 consecutive games at Hope Valley FC.

Todd has the talent he'll bounce back I reckon he looks a tad lost at the moment understandably.

 

[drcollossimo]

I'm sick of reading 'if his form warrants it'. His form warrants selection unless and until there's somebody in better form IN HIS POSITION. If that's Frampton, then I still think on the long run we're better off sticking with the blue chip prospect, but in the short term at least it's fine. But it's definitely not Sam Gray.

If Ryder (Dixon) copped an injury and Lycett (Marshall) had a couple of 'mares in a row, do we drop Lycett for Sam Gray and not bother with a ruck? Of course we don't. So why should KPF's be treated any differently?

Because I said so and have said so for 6 years

 

[LFC2010]

Todd needs to develop in the AFL. No point doing in it the SNAFL comp.

Look at the Brisbane side we just played and Hipwood for instance.

Hipwood has been mostly been developed in the AFL and Brisbane are just starting to reap the rewards with by doing that, be patient with some of these kids and they'll eventually come good through experience.

 

[Tibbs]

I disagree with dropping him for SGray, but Marshall has been terrible in the first two games. IMO dropping him to the Maggies was the right thing. Hinder his development? .... C'Mon! He didnt sit on the sidelines. He would have been clearly told what was expected, and asked to go perform against Souths ... That's part of developing a player! How did he go?

The decision to replace him with Gray was dumb IMO, it takes us back to 2018 and the nonsensical selections that disrupted team structure, time, and time again! We still should have won on Saturday, but that would have been despite the poor selection policy.

Going by our 2018 selection form, Marshall will probably come straight back in against Richmond ... a shorter side than Brisbane.

Go figure!

 

[Papa G]

I disagree with dropping him for SGray, but Marshall has been terrible in the first two games. IMO dropping him to the Maggies was the right thing. Hinder his development? .... C'Mon! He didnt sit on the sidelines. He would have been clearly told what was expected, and asked to go perform against Souths ... That's part of developing a player! How did he go?

The decision to replace him with Gray was dumb IMO, it takes us back to 2018 and the nonsensical selections that disrupted team structure, time, and time again! We still should have won on Saturday, but that would have been despite the poor selection policy.

Going by our 2018 selection form, Marshall will probably come straight back in against Richmond ... a shorter side than Brisbane.

Go figure!

Marshall was fine against Melbourne. He was playing quite well in fact. Got absolutely crunched in a contest (where he showed considerable courage) and that may have slowed him down. He was quiet against Carlton, I'll grant you that (but so was Westhoff and Ryder), wasn't a great day for the big men.