Player Watch Pick #16 (2016) - Todd Marshall

[El_Scorcho]

That comes down to poor ball delivery by our mids.

LOL.

#carn

 

[JUSTWORK]

Our mids should be up for criticism for poor delivery but there has always always always been a direct correlation between having no tall forwards and poor inside 50 entry. Especially at port Adelaide.

I Don’t disagree, but this is one of Marshall problems, he isn’t playing Tall. He doesn’t make leads into space I50 nearly well enough, drops to many marks and isn’t a contested marking player.

That’s where the comments about them seing him as a general forward comes from. If we want a sting marking target in Dixon’s absence Frampton is ahead of Marshall at this point in time. Billy holds more contested marks and Crashes packs.

Do we remember the job AJ did on McGovern last year at AO ? Stopping tall defenders taking intercept marks isn’t as simple as picking more talks.

Don’t get me wrong, I want Marshall back in the AFL side as soon as possible, but he has things he needs to work on, especially if we want him out #1 (tall) Forward.

 

[edgie]

The best part is too, when Butcher was kicking goals in the SANFL, it still wasn't enough for the club or some supporters to want him brought back...

 

[JUSTWORK]

LOL.

#carn

Of course it does, if you have a tall defender on a small, you don’t bomb it long and expect them to out mark them 1V1, put out it out in front and play to your team mates strengths not the opposition defender.

Same goes for Marshall when we works his way back into the side, should be using his pace and mobility to get in leads then hold his over head marks.

 

[Snake Charmer]

U18 level was his first year of playing footy. Still has a lot to learn.

Marshall has played all his life. Focused on cricket for a season and half. Before that was playing both sports.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I Don’t disagree, but this is one of Marshall problems, he isn’t playing Tall. He doesn’t make leads into space I50 nearly well enough, drops to many marks and isn’t a contested marking player.

That’s where the comments about them seing him as a general forward comes from. If we want a sting marking target in Dixon’s absence Frampton is ahead of Marshall at this point in time. Billy holds more contested marks and Crashes packs.

Do we remember the job AJ did on McGovern last year at AO ? Stopping tall defenders taking intercept marks isn’t as simple as picking more talks.

Don’t get me wrong, I want Marshall back in the AFL side as soon as possible, but he has things he needs to work on, especially if we want him out #1 (tall) Forward.

He doesn't actually need to take mass contested grabs every week though. He just needs to play his role and keep a tall defender worried about him enough that they can't peel off and do what they like in the D50, and he did that in both games. He'sa developing 3rd tall. He's not going to dominate, he's not going to do as well as Ryder or Westhoff most weeks.

At 17 other clubs, after his first 2 games this year, Marshall would have been retained in the side for round 3, because every other club understands the value of structure, and every other club understands what developing a key forward takes.

 

[JUSTWORK]

Marshall has played all his life. Focused on cricket for a season and half. Before that was playing both sports.

You’re sure ? I’m sure i read somewhere that he only took it up late.

 

[Snake Charmer]

You’re sure ? I’m sure i read somewhere that he only took it up late.

Yep, from Deniliquin my self. Was always a pretty good junior. Focused on cricket when he was 15 for a season or 2. Then played U18s with the bushrangers

 

[JUSTWORK]

Yep, from Deniliquin my self. Was always a pretty good junior. Focused on cricket when he was 15 for a season or 2. Then played U18s with the bushrangers

Cheers

 

[Snake Charmer]

He comes from a very very talented afl family.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Of course it does, if you have a tall defender on a small, you don’t bomb it long and expect them to out mark them 1V1, put out it out in front and play to your team mates strengths not the opposition defender.

Same goes for Marshall when we works his way back into the side, should be using his pace and mobility to get in leads then hold his over head marks.

The entirety of modern football defensive strategy is based around putting pressure on the ball carrier so he doesn't have all the time and space in the world to simply hit up a target. Your analysis here is so simplistic and completely ignores all the other factors which go into a forward entry and how it might be defended.

When we go in undersized up forward, we give the opposition an advantage at every contest, because 95% of balls come in through the air. When those players are dominating in the air, they don't have to stress about sending multiple defenders to every contest because they know their player will at least halve the contest, so they can peel off and setup for the counter, and they can leave their man to take a simple uncontested intercept mark.

If we play adequate talls, the opposition tall defenders have to follow someone around and get sucked into contests because they're worried about our marking ability, so space opens up everywhere.

Brisbane were able to kick long and direct into their forward 50 to good effect because they had 3 genuine talls up there. We put their kicks under pressure just like they did to us, but they could enter the forward line with confidence knowing that they had an advantage. We couldn't do that and it affected us all game.

 

[RangaInTeal]

Call me old fashioned, but it would be pretty hard to relate to Matthew Nicks, Nathan Bassett and Ken Hinkley as a key forward. Those three know the pitfalls and perils of being a young lad learning the craft...

 

[jac147]

Currently why can’t we develop tall, skinny players like Hipwood? Can only think of Westy at the moment who would get a very high pass mark.

 

[GoPorts]

I'm sick of reading 'if his form warrants it'. His form warrants selection unless and until there's somebody in better form IN HIS POSITION. If that's Frampton, then I still think on the long run we're better off sticking with the blue chip prospect, but in the short term at least it's fine. But it's definitely not Sam Gray.

If Ryder (Dixon) copped an injury and Lycett (Marshall) had a couple of 'mares in a row, do we drop Lycett for Sam Gray and not bother with a ruck? Of course we don't. So why should KPF's be treated any differently?

2015-2018 suggests that we would happily forgo a dedicated ruckman if ours were injured/ suspended or otherwise. The modus operandi in that situation is to take away your tall forward to play Ruck and then replace that player with Gray/Neade/Amon et al. Not the best example

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[Tibbs]

Overall I agree, but the problem is the SANFL. It's a league where everyone kicks at an amateur level but they play well organised team defence, and the result is a congested, low scoring quagmire. Trying to find space to work as a developing KPF in that league is incredibly difficult.

Now we're in a position where Marshall had a nothing game against South, but we're in desparate need of another tall forward at AFL level. So what do we do? Do we swallow our pride and admit that we need another tall and select him against form, or do we continue to sacrifice our ability to win at AFL level until he can manage a passable game at SANFL level?

Or do we pick Frampton or Howard as a KPF? Neither is setting the world on fire.

I agree we need a tall in for structure. But, yes, I reckon I would give Frampton a go. I like his agro, and IMO while he doesnt have the skills of Marshall, he imposes himself better than Marshall. When he came in last year for that token game, he just lifted a gear. IMO, he is one of those players that will play a better game at AFL level than in the snafl.

Might also light a fire under Marshall!

 

[Tibbs]

Todd doesn't only need to develop his game. He needs to develop his body. The PAFC website lists Todd at 87kgs which is too light for a 198 cm key forward. Todd gets to the arial and ground contests OK but he is too easily pushed off the ball. Another 4-5 kgs would make a big difference.

Todd's situation is a bit like that of Justin Westhoff a dozen years back. Westhoff was an absolute bean pole when drafted and Choco played him as a forward flank because he did not have the body weight to hold down a key position These days Justin weighs in at 94kg and consequently holds his own in the marking duels and at ground level. If Todd can add a few kgs of muscle over the next few years he might he a replacement for Westhoff.

I agree, he needs a bigger upper body especially. However, as a comparison, Eric Hipwood is a skinny been pole. Now at his heaviest weight at 90kgs, and he is 202cm-203cm (depending what site you visit!), and was 85kgs when he debuted.

I reckon that Todd has to just make a few tweaks to his game to influence matches more. He is not far away IMO, and I reckon a few weeks of no pressure in the snafl will do him good.

 

[Macca19]

I didn't bring up Hipwood, but my point is that he's been backed in throughout some poor games of football where he's had absolutely no impact.

If Marshall was at any other club and plays exactly as he did in rounds 1 & 2, he keeps his spot for round 3. Not here.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of young key forwards who get dropped all the time. Just look at McKay, Moore, Cox and Fogarty as two examples. Hipwood is different as Brisbane literally had noone else. Schache wanted to quit so wasn't going to get a game, Walker was playing as a defender, as was McStay. If they dropped Hipwood, they would have had no key forwards. We at least have the "luxury" of having Westhoff and Ryder up there so Marshall can be the third wheel. Hipwood was their number 1 banana. He was their only tall to kick more than 9 goals for the season. He was never getting dropped.

I understand the chagrin around his selection and I do agree with it. I don't want to see him dropped either. Him playing SANFL this weekend did nothing. But forgive me if I want to see him make himself undroppable. It's up to him to do that.

 

[Macca19]

The comment that we don't see him as a KPF is scary. Whilst I can see how he plays like a tall medium forward, looking at his development with that lense is hugely detrimental to his development and speaks poorly of our list management.

I'm pretty sure they said at this point he isn't a KPF, not that he will never be seen as a KPF. And its true.

Is he a lead up marking KPF right now? No.

Is he a contested marking KPF right now? No.

He is literally playing like a 198cm Jake Neade. Not because the club wants him to, but because that's just how he's playing at the moment. He doesn't lead, he doesn't take contested marks, he rarely goes up for any marks, he doesn't command the ball and he has little presence out there at the moment. That's the facts.

He's in a rut and will work himself out of it.

 

[El_Scorcho]

But forgive me if I want to see him make himself undroppable. It's up to him to do that.

Oh I totally agree, he absolutely needs to continue to improve and to take his chances, but it just seems like key forwards at every other club get way more opportunity to do that. We need to be able to ride him through the quiet weeks a little bit and back him in instead of dropping him at first opportunity.

It's even worse when it had a negative structural impact.

 

[Slammer]

Marshall has played all his life. Focused on cricket for a season and half. Before that was playing both sports.

Marshall needs to be back in the Magoos, he has not fired a shot this season, or most of last season. With all respect, I hope not he's not "John Butcher Mark II".

 

[philthy05]

Not necessarily. There are plenty of young key forwards who get dropped all the time. Just look at McKay, Moore, Cox and Fogarty as two examples..

I don’t know if they’re the best examples lol

Not an established forward of the lot

Fogarty isn’t even nick salter level

Darcy Moore? was a rubbish forward who Hinkley would have dropped so many times. Also he’s racked up heaps of games when he was available I don’t remember pies dropping him. Now a backman. Just checked 57 games at the age of 23.

Cox? Which one? Freos or pies?

Mackay? Blues Mackay? Doesn’t he have like 5 games under his belt now from being a stick long term prospect working in the gym? I would be willing to bet large amounts of money he doesn’t get dropped from Carlton’s side anytime soon even if he has an average game.

 

[Dylan8]

Marshall needs to be back in the Magoos, he has not fired a shot this season, or most of last season. With all respect, I hope not he's not "John Butcher Mark II".

His start to last season was great, kicked a couple of bags then got concussed and obviously then had to take leave after his dad passed away.

 

[Macca19]

I don’t know if they’re the best examples lol

Not an established forward of the lot.

My point exactly. Marshall isnt established yet

 

[FishingRick04]

Does Charlie Dixon count?

Has he developed?

 

[Forzaport]

Has he developed?

He's a first choice KPF and (was) a second choice ruck when fit so I'd say so.