List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[armpit]

So the umps favoured us because we left GAGF alone? Yeh maybe! I understand they would have been aware of him but I was asking for a good old fashioned tag like what DeBoar is doing or Banfield last year. To have GAGF running around accumulating possessions and confidence and being cheered for every one of them especially in the first, was wrong and pissed me off. Didn't have to be anything illegal but being worn like a glove. Big error I thought.

Gagf had to play the game of his life out there being untagged, didn't he. If he hadn't they would have lost seeing as shut was shut down.

Did you see him being interviewed after the game? He was an emotional/ physical wreck. It was a cruel and unusual punishment. I think they did the right thing.

 

[wayToGo_]

Our last game was clearly a younger team. Seems like cherry picking the week that suits your argument.

Why are people so prepared to minimise what we should expect from our team.

I'm comparing us to a team that won 4 games last year and I'm still getting grief about it not being a fair comparison.

What are people afraid of with this comparison?

I wasn't cherry picking. Brisbane have played an older and more experienced team all year - as the stats youmewe posted (it was a massive difference). But what I was showing is that the differential is also important. West Coast is the only team both Brisbane and Freo have played against - so that's the only one I could use fairly.

I'm a bit over this stupid conversation to be honest. If you don't think our team did well on the weekend given who we were up against and who we had on the park available (plus Hamling going down mid game) then nothing is going to convince you otherwise. We played well given the circumstances - but there is plenty we need to improve. We played really well against North. We played ok against Saints given they are in pretty good form and Fyfe got injured mid game. We played atrocious against Gold Coast. Nobody should be excluding any of those games as outliers - not the North game, not the GC game. On balance we are doing ok. If people are truly on the negative ledger still then they should find a new team to support for their own mental well being.

 

[armpit]

Way to go. I'm not surprised you're over it. Grinding the same wheel over and over. Get new material negative ledgerists or take the advice of way to go.

If not for your mental health then your blood pressure.

 

[Square Peg]

I wasn't cherry picking. Brisbane have played an older and more experienced team all year - as the stats youmewe posted (it was a massive difference). But what I was showing is that the differential is also important. West Coast is the only team both Brisbane and Freo have played against - so that's the only one I could use fairly.

I'm a bit over this stupid conversation to be honest. If you don't think our team did well on the weekend given who we were up against and who we had on the park available (plus Hamling going down mid game) then nothing is going to convince you otherwise. We played well given the circumstances - but there is plenty we need to improve. We played really well against North. We played ok against Saints given they are in pretty good form and Fyfe got injured mid game. We played atrocious against Gold Coast. Nobody should be excluding any of those games as outliers - not the North game, not the GC game. On balance we are doing ok. If people are truly on the negative ledger still then they should find a new team to support for their own mental well being.

The issue raffrox raises though is that if you can look at any suite of stats for long enough you'll find an excuse for failing. Lyon could coach us for the next twenty years, fail to deliver a flag, and if I wanted to I could still find an excuse as to why it is due to some external factor. Sooner or later though he has to realise "We are a results based industry" as someone wise once said.

 

[Bicco]

I wasn't cherry picking. Brisbane have played an older and more experienced team all year - as the stats youmewe posted (it was a massive difference). But what I was showing is that the differential is also important. West Coast is the only team both Brisbane and Freo have played against - so that's the only one I could use fairly.

I'm a bit over this stupid conversation to be honest. If you don't think our team did well on the weekend given who we were up against and who we had on the park available (plus Hamling going down mid game) then nothing is going to convince you otherwise. We played well given the circumstances - but there is plenty we need to improve. We played really well against North. We played ok against Saints given they are in pretty good form and Fyfe got injured mid game. We played atrocious against Gold Coast. Nobody should be excluding any of those games as outliers - not the North game, not the GC game. On balance we are doing ok. If people are truly on the negative ledger still then they should find a new team to support for their own mental well being.

Imagine some of our supporters following Geelong. A team of no excuses and still struggling to get the job done.

 

[Nothing]

Nah, nothing in it. Brisbane are nowhere near a full year older. In any case these age and experience stats mean diddly squat unless there’s a massive difference, (particularly in players under 30 games experience)which there’s not between these 3 teams.

If you want a debate on how these teams are different, you need to look elsewhere. Quality of team. Game plan . Win/loss. Percentage.

Brisbane are on average 6 months older and 19 games more experienced. They have had one less player under 50 games too. if you think that is nothing in it you don't understand the averages across the league. They are one of the middle aged and experienced teams, we are one of the younger teams. Next year, all being equal that excuse will disappear, but at the moment Brisbane are ahead of us in their rebuild (as they should be after being in rebuild for 10 years).

Win/Loss they are 1 game ahead. Percentage we are miles in front. No doubt the injuries are are non-factor in your mind too.

 

[raffrox]

I wasn't cherry picking. Brisbane have played an older and more experienced team all year - as the stats youmewe posted (it was a massive difference). But what I was showing is that the differential is also important. West Coast is the only team both Brisbane and Freo have played against - so that's the only one I could use fairly.

I'm a bit over this stupid conversation to be honest. If you don't think our team did well on the weekend given who we were up against and who we had on the park available (plus Hamling going down mid game) then nothing is going to convince you otherwise. We played well given the circumstances - but there is plenty we need to improve. We played really well against North. We played ok against Saints given they are in pretty good form and Fyfe got injured mid game. We played atrocious against Gold Coast. Nobody should be excluding any of those games as outliers - not the North game, not the GC game. On balance we are doing ok. If people are truly on the negative ledger still then they should find a new team to support for their own mental well being.

How about you find a new team to support?

We didn't have Ballas (still a best 22 player apparently), Fyfe or SHill last game. I looked at the Brissy injury list and they are playing their best 22 except for Adams.

Our best 22 is older than our current 22 but Brisbane's isn't.

If people are going to be scared to compare us to Brisbane then I have concerns. I'm not even saying that they are better or worse ffs.

I'm just making a statement that we should compare our progress against teams at a similar stage in their rebuilds. What's wrong with that and why is that negative?

You're worried because there is a strong chance that they have gone past us.

 

[Nothing]

How about you find a new team to support?

We didn't have Ballas (still a best 22 player apparently), Fyfe or SHill last game. I looked at the Brissy injury list and they are playing their best 22 except for Adams.

Our best 22 is older than our current 22 but Brisbane's isn't.

If people are going to be scared to compare us to Brisbane then I have concerns. I'm not even saying that they are better or worse ffs.

I'm just making a statement that we should compare our progress against teams at a similar stage in their rebuilds. What's wrong with that and why is that negative?

You're worried because there is a strong chance that they have gone past us.

Do you think the results would have been the same with Fyfe and Hill (plus Ballas if you want)? Unfortunately for you, the coach can only pick from those available. If we had our best team on the park, we would win more games (like Brisbane have).

 

[raffrox]

Do you think the results would have been the same with Fyfe and Hill (plus Ballas if you want)? Unfortunately for you, the coach can only pick from those available. If we had our best team on the park, we would win more games (like Brisbane have).

Sounds like injuries are being used as an excuse already.

Sure. I'd say we'd have an extra win. The juicy start of this year was never going to be the problem. Now we see where we are at.

I'll watch this with the same interest as you. Brisbane may have injuries as well but don't tell me their not someone we can track our progress against regardless.

 

[Nothing]

Sounds like injuries are being used as an excuse already.

Sure. I'd say we'd have an extra win. The juicy start of this year was never going to be the problem. Now we see where we are at.

I'll watch this with the same interest as you. Brisbane may have injuries as well but don't tell me their not someone we can track our progress against regardless.

We are talking about age of list and it has been mentioned that with Fyfe and others we would be older/more experienced. I'm agreeing but saying we would have won more too.

You can track your progress against anyone. But you need to ensure your expectations are reasonable. Brisbane have started well, as mentioned they have arguably one best 22 player out currently. We have between 3 and 6 depending on your best 22 (Fyfe, Blakely, Hill, Sandi/Darcy, Bennell, Ballas) Add any two of those and our age and experience goes up but our winning chance does too, IMO covering the GC loss and improving the win against Saints. At that point we are 3-1 with the best percentage in the league. I wonder how Brisbane would have gone losing Neale for half a game against Port without Stef (or Archie Smith), Zorko and Hodge.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Nah, nothing in it. Brisbane are nowhere near a full year older. In any case these age and experience stats mean diddly squat unless there’s a massive difference, (particularly in players under 30 games experience)which there’s not between these 3 teams.

If you want a debate on how these teams are different, you need to look elsewhere. Quality of team. Game plan . Win/loss. Percentage.

Using my stat showing the number of players in the starting 22 that have 50+ games for the club, Brisbane Lions had 10 on the weekend. Freo had 5.
Remember, history (last 20years) says you need 13+ (preferably 16+) in the finals to win a premiership.

I expect by the end of the season, Brisbane Lions could have as many as 15 in their starting 22. I estimate likely about 12.
I would suggest Brisbane Lions supporters should be hoping to see improvement this year with the hope of playing competitive finals in 2020 when they can realistically expect 15+ experienced players in the team each week.

I expect Freo to have about 9 by the end of the season. But that assumes ongoing injuries woes to our experienced players. In theory, with luck and low injuries, Freo could have a team with more than 13 come finals (this season). But if Freo look like they aren't going to make the finals, I expect Ross will lean towards playing more youngsters to continue the fast track of our rebuild ... and that will mean our starting 22 will still have low numbers of 50+ club game players and Freo will have more losses (but get some more good draft picks).

 

[Scham]

Brisbane are on average 6 months older and 19 games more experienced. They have had one less player under 50 games too. if you think that is nothing in it you don't understand the averages across the league. They are one of the middle aged and experienced teams, we are one of the younger teams. Next year, all being equal that excuse will disappear, but at the moment Brisbane are ahead of us in their rebuild (as they should be after being in rebuild for 10 years).

Win/Loss they are 1 game ahead. Percentage we are miles in front. No doubt the injuries are are non-factor in your mind too.

All teams have injuries, it’s a part of the game.

What we need to do is compare all of this at seasons end. Brisbane are ahead of us in their rebuild and GC are way, way behind both. All 3 are similarly aged and experienced. List quality, Bris and Freo are on a par with Brisbane having the most potential upside, GC’s list is again miles behind both in terms of quality.

Which of the 3 clubs wins a premiership first will be the most interesting thing.

 

[Nothing]

All teams have injuries, it’s a part of the game.

What we need to do is compare all of this at seasons end. Brisbane are ahead of us in their rebuild and GC are way, way behind both. All 3 are similarly aged and experienced. List quality, Bris and Freo are on a par with Brisbane having the most potential upside, GC’s list is again miles behind both in terms of quality.

Which of the 3 clubs wins a premiership first will be the most interesting thing.

All teams get injuries, but Brisbane don't have any now (well one best 22 but that's less dramatic).

I agree with almost all of what you have said. Until season's end... we wait. See you in 4 months.

 

[theGav56]

Let's not include Sandi in the conversation I reckon as I don't think he will be a main part of our team this year. He's been amazing and deserves to be seen as a modern ruck great but we can't count on him far as the rebuild goes other then a six to 10 game spell this year imo.

Fyfe though we had for the GCS game. I'm not sure if anyone can dodge that this years Brisbane Lions are a fairly equal comparison to us.

We should be able to watch how they go to assess our rebuild.

Similar number of players under 50 games. Similar number of players under 24.

Well you included Sandilands and we are discussing list/team ages, so lets include him in the conversation. He may not be with us next season and we may trade in an experienced ruck. Seems my answer didn't fit for you, but there is no doubt that having Fyfe in the derby game as opposed to say having Schultz would make for a significant impact. I mean, what we are talking about is a young rebuilding team taking it up to the premiership side. But the Lions are doing well. Good on them. I think we'll finish around the same area of the ladder, and probably feel like they will be the higher team. Not overly a concern for me. They could also be serious finals contenders from next year, which is also where I expect us to be.

 

[Bicco]

"WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS! "

 

[raffrox]

Well you included Sandilands and we are discussing list/team ages, so lets include him in the conversation. He may not be with us next season and we may trade in an experienced ruck. Seems my answer didn't fit for you, but there is no doubt that having Fyfe in the derby game as opposed to say having Schultz would make for a significant impact. I mean, what we are talking about is a young rebuilding team taking it up to the premiership side. But the Lions are doing well. Good on them. I think we'll finish around the same area of the ladder, and probably feel like they will be the higher team. Not overly a concern for me. They could also be serious finals contenders from next year, which is also where I expect us to be.

I didn't include Sandi even though it would have fitted my argument about our best 22 being similar in age and experience to the Lions but I didn't include him given he hasn't played this year. Whatever you reckon though hey.

One game without Fyfe proves nothing either way. Just like how one game with a high score proves nothing no matter how many threads you start about it.

 

[wayToGo_]

If people are going to be scared to compare us to Brisbane then I have concerns. I'm not even saying that they are better or worse ffs.

But it was someone on the negative side that compared us to Brisbane in the first place, not me. They referred to Brisbane as a young team like us. I was just pointing out that they aren't though - they are mid tier age atm. If we had all of Sandi, SHill, etc playing then we might be mid tier as well. But whilst we don't, we've been in the bottom 4-5 age and experience wise every week - that's just a fact, not an excuse.

I just want to see us competitive each and every week and not have massive 50+ point thrashings like last year. The fact we managed to be competitive against the reigning premiers (who fielded a better team than their GF team) is a good sign we are going to be more competitive this year imo. Happy for you or anyone to disagree but using your own words if those negative people are going to "compare us to Brisbane then I have concerns"

 

[theGav56]

But it was someone on the negative side that compared us to Brisbane in the first place, not me. They referred to Brisbane as a young team like us. I was just pointing out that they aren't though - they are mid tier age atm. If we had all of Sandi, SHill, etc playing then we might be mid tier as well. But whilst we don't, we've been in the bottom 4-5 age and experience wise every week - that's just a fact, not an excuse.

I just want to see us competitive each and every week and not have massive 50+ point thrashings like last year. The fact we managed to be competitive against the reigning premiers (who fielded a better team than their GF team) is a good sign we are going to be more competitive this year imo. Happy for you or anyone to disagree but using your own words if those negative people are going to "compare us to Brisbane then I have concerns"

Yes all clearly argued and logical.

By the way, we have a couple of brick walls need knocking down if you want to bang your head against something different.

 

[PurpleEyes]

I'm not sure why Freo is being compared to Brisbane Lions.
BL currently have a team with 8 players 22years and younger. Those young talented players are there because of Brisbane's sustained failures in the past providing them with top draft picks.
Remember BL got a priority pick in 2016.
BL's 8 young players include 5 first rounders, 2 Academy players, a 2nd round pick and a high 3rd round pick.
(Meanwhile, Freo have 6 players 22years and under, including 2 first round picks, 1 second round pick, 1 fourth round, 1 fifth round and a rookie)

Any difference in success between Brisbane Lions and Fremantle can be easily argued to be the quality of the lists.
In any case, Fremantle are currently still in their 3rd year of a rebuild after being minor premiers in 2015.
Brisbane Lions have been rebuilding since 2010/11. They went from 2011 to late 2017 fielding teams with 10 or less 50+ club game players.
But now during Chris Fagan's coaching, they have reduced their team changes.
On the weekend, their player with the least career games was a 24 year old backup ruckman with 20 AFL career games. Freo had 3 players aged 22years or younger with less than 20 career games.

Comparisons between the two is totally useless when debating the quality of each team's coaches because we are not comparing apples with apples.

 

[tonygeeks]

round 3 teams age brackets I believe , not sure all the youth excuses are all that valid looking at that ..... pretty much exactly the same as Richmond


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[PurpleEyes]

Richmond had 13 players who have played 50+ games for the club on the weekend.
(EDIT: youmewe kindly pointed out that Richmond had 10, not 13. I stand corrected.)
Freo had 5.
The average for all 18 teams for Round 4 was between 11 & 12.
Freo have had 5 in all four rounds so far in 2019, the lowest in every round.

 

[maka]

Brisbane 4 on the ladder
Gold Coast 6 on the ladder
and Freo on 7.

If anyone suggested those ladder positions at the end of round 4, before the season had started, I would have laughed at them.
All very temporary, Brisbane the only team credibly expected in the 8 at the end of the year - but maybe a fork shouldn't be stuck in either the Suns or the Dockers yet.

Everyone has expected Brisbane to improve, the Suns have won 3 games - well done to them, you can't take these 3 wins away from them and it will help them get some confidence and help to build the club - we were the joke of the competition when we started, they have my sympathy.

Did you see all three draws? I mean the only out of sorts one is our loss to Suns and the Brisbanes win over WC, Brisbane loss to Essendon and I hate to tell you this, but outside this Forum we still are the joke of the competition most clubs pencil us down for a Victory over us

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Richmond had 13 players who have played 50+ games for the club on the weekend.
Freo had 5.
The average for all 18 teams for Round 4 was between 11 & 12.
Freo have had 5 in all four rounds so far in 2019, the lowest in every round.

You are being unreasonably selective to suit your argument.


We had 14 50+ gamers on the weekend.
Guys like Hill, McCarthy, Hamling, Lobb and Hogan not have hit 50 for the club yet but they are all experienced AFL players now. I would give some leeway to Lobb and Hogan but it should not take a 50+ gamer another 50 games to gel with a new group. If you’re a high quality player, you should impact straight away (See Lynch, Neale). FWIW Hogan has been pretty unlucky not to have more goals and he’s working hard, he’ll break through soon.

 

[maka]

You are being unreasonably selective to suit your argument.

View attachment 655576
We had 14 50+ gamers on the weekend.
Guys like Hill, McCarthy, Hamling, Lobb and Hogan not have hit 50 for the club yet but they are all experienced AFL players now. I would give some leeway to Lobb and Hogan but it should not take a 50+ gamer another 50 games to gel with a new group. If you’re a high quality player, you should impact straight away (See Lynch, Neale). FWIW Hogan has been pretty unlucky not to have more goals and he’s working hard, he’ll break through soon.

Anyone can bend goal posts to suit objectives

 

[kingswood71]

I hate to tell you this, but outside this Forum we still are the joke of the competition most clubs pencil us down for a Victory over us

bare assertion fallacy......