Review Round 5, 2019 - Brisbane Lions vs. Collingwood

[Lionheart182]

https://m.lions.com.au/news/2019-03-12/rayner

"I came back and wasn't in great shape after the off-season. That was my first break," Rayner told AFL.com.au with a sheepish grin.

"I've got back down to 91kg now and I'm pretty comfortable there.

"I was playing at that (last year) and towards the end I got a little bit heavier, but I'm aiming to stay around 90-91kg this year."

"My second pre-season was a lot harder than my first one," he said.

"This year I feel as fit as I've ever been and (I'm) getting to contests a little bit easier and still having a little bit left in the tank, which I never really felt in my junior career.

Pretty different to what's been portrayed in multiple threads in my opinion. In fact it actually says he is fitter than he has ever been? Which is at odds to those cracking fat jokes and saying he can't run.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Being a goal kicking midfielder was one of his great attributes as a junior, IIRC he had the best ever average goals per game in the TAC cup and/or National Champs.

Very confident Hugh is going to be an elite mid of the competition.

Would he be our best mid by foot at the moment?
He makes you feel at ease when the ball is in his hands.
He is so cool under pressure, level headed, rarely flustered .

 

[jackess]

Would he be our best mid by foot at the moment?
He makes you feel at ease when the ball is in his hands.
He is so cool under pressure, level headed, rarely flustered .

By his right foot, maybe. Definitely not his left.

 

[rusty08]

Some silly stuff being said about Rayner in here in my opinion. Overweight, lazy, bad eating habits, doesn’t care, shouldn’t be living with Witherden, wouldn’t be top 10 year after his draft, seriously, ridiculous.

We're at fickle lot. Some unfair assumptions being made on the kid. Would I like him to do more? Yeah of course, but I'm not going to hang him. He's 19 for Gods sake. What's he kicked 7 goals so far? Missed some gimmes I know, he kicks those,that's a 40 odd goal season and we're not having this discussion.
He loves the club, that's enough for me for now. He has undeniable talent, and will be a great player for us going forward.

 

[dlanod]

Rayner did an interview where he said he came back 4 kgs from his currently playing weight and said he had to go 4 boxing sessions a week to get back into shape he was previous season.

https://m.lions.com.au/news/2019-03-12/rayner

If you read the article you would realise that Rayner did the four boxing sessions off his own bat before he came back for the preseason, which doesn't align with coming back overweight and then doing the boxing.

 

[Tom14]

If you read the article you would realise that Rayner did the four boxing sessions off his own bat before he came back for the preseason, which doesn't align with coming back overweight and then doing the boxing.

Weird, its almost like people are either making things up or massively over-reading into minor details in stories to support a narrative.

 

[Jivlain]

Coaches are clearly persisting with him because of potential and clearly playing half forward is not easy when team is being smashed in middle . But anyone who can watch the game can see he isn’t fit , can’t do repeated efforts and has lost the power and spring from last year . That suggests he is carrying too much weight .

It's also symptomatic of having a bad corky.

 

[BangyBangy]

Weird, its almost like people are either making things up or massively over-reading into minor details in stories to support a narrative.

But why did he do boxing sessions when he hasn't got a tank for running? Why didn't he just do more running?

I think they were my favourite posts.

*Edit, anyone else out there try to increase your running program too fast too quick? I did. That's how I got ITB syndrome. Horrible horrible thing.

 

[Sausages]

But why did he do boxing sessions when he hasn't got a tank for running? Why didn't he just do more running?

I think they were my favourite posts.

*Edit, anyone else out there try to increase your running program too fast too quick? I did. That's how I got ITB syndrome. Horrible horrible thing.

Boxing sessions are tough on your endurance too and less likely to cause stress related injuries in a bloke who's 90kgs and probably isn't conditioned to a heavy running workload.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the club have a 3-4 year plan of attack in building up his running endurance - but that presumes they still see him as a midfielder long term, which might not necessarily be the case.

 

[BRAB]

Is Cameron Rayner the second year player that's having a dip in form but still managed to kick two really good goals on the weekend or is that somebody else?

The scary thing is down on form Rayner has still had a presence in matches. When he's on look out.

Wouldn't trade him for anybody from his draft year.

 

[Nunez]

Some of the anti-Rayner talk is bewildering. Anybody would think The kid was 100 games in and disappointing.

He's on track for 25-35 goals this season as a 19 year old essentially playing as a lead-up forward. The last two weeks he has played carrying a corkie (which was visibly strapped) but still has been able to hit the scoreboard.

Two losses has really soured some on BigFooty to the point so much has become unreadable. I hope people can remember we're 5 rounds in and are still sitting on 3 wins along with 9 other clubs. That's the best start we've had in 9 years and we've got a lot of young, untapped talent - more than I can recall us having since the premiership days - and have a LOT of upside. It'll be a rollercoaster of a year, but we're on 3 wins without even nearing the best we have to offer. We're still far behind the top tier teams, but we are now among the middle of the pack which is somewhere we haven't been since 2013.

To conclude this here rant - let's embrace the challenge we as a club have ahead of us, back the team, coaches and of course the players in and ride the emotional rollercoaster together. <3

 

[BangyBangy]

Boxing sessions are tough on your endurance too and less likely to cause stress related injuries in a bloke who's 90kgs and probably isn't conditioned to a heavy running workload.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the club have a 3-4 year plan of attack in building up his running endurance - but that presumes they still see him as a midfielder long term, which might not necessarily be the case.

Absolutely they are. I found just keeping your hands up for three minute spars was bloody tough. Probably good intensity training for repeat sprint efforts too.

Forrest Gump was just a movie, you can't just run more, you can't overload your system.

As much as you need to train, you also need to recover. So you need to be able to train in different ways whilst still increasing your aerobic capacity. Me personally, to increase my tank I swam & rode mtb single trail. To run faster I trained my core. And that's just me with no professional help. I googled it all (thought I had lupus to start with, be careful what you google).

I wish I was a professional athlete. It would be awesome to have a team of sports scientists to manage my fitness. On the flip side though, not sure my insecure personality could put up with all the criticisms on internet forums.

 

[Monkey Daniel]

Boxing sessions are tough on your endurance too and less likely to cause stress related injuries in a bloke who's 90kgs and probably isn't conditioned to a heavy running workload.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the club have a 3-4 year plan of attack in building up his running endurance - but that presumes they still see him as a midfielder long term, which might not necessarily be the case.

Rocky wasn't a quick runner and he took the boxing route and it helped him.
Good on Rayner for taking this on

 

[Sausages]

Absolutely they are. I found just keeping your hands up for three minute spars was bloody tough. Probably good intensity training for repeat sprint efforts too.

Forrest Gump was just a movie, you can't just run more, you can't overload your system.

As much as you need to train, you also need to recover. So you need to be able to train in different ways whilst still increasing your aerobic capacity. Me personally, to increase my tank I swam & rode mtb single trail. To run faster I trained my core. And that's just me with no professional help. I googled it all (thought I had lupus to start with, be careful what you google).

I wish I was a professional athlete. It would be awesome to have a team of sports scientists to manage my fitness. On the flip side though, not sure my insecure personality could put up with all the criticisms on internet forums.

Yeah - I hated doing boxing sessions too. It wasn't until I started doing them at the gym that I came to fully appreciate how supremely fit boxers are - after a minute, I was shot After 2 minutes, I could hardly hold the gloves up anymore, it was hilarious.

I think he'll get there as a runner, but I'm glad the club is taking the path they are with him. It's always known that building up endurance for many midfielders is a function of numerous pre-seasons....and Cam has only done 2. And the first year one would have been a very cautious exercise I'd think.

 

[martinson]

Cam reminds me of a very young Leigh Mathews . OK it's drawing a long bow , but the same powerful tree trunk legs and the weaving path to goal. He only needs to end up being half as good.

Obviously he's struggling a bit ,probably with injury,but he has a fierce passion for the contest . I think he and Charlie are suffering from the same disease at the moment ,trying to pull off the impossible and be focal points. All they need to do is concentrate on being good crumbing forwards who lead up into space and then tackle and defend strongly when the ball is on the way out. Just do the basic things well.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

By his right foot, maybe. Definitely not his left.

I haven't noticed that but thanks for pointing that out , I'll make a mental note of that. He is so raw in terms
of afl years so he can only get better.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Yeah - I hated doing boxing sessions too. It wasn't until I started doing them at the gym that I came to fully appreciate how supremely fit boxers are - after a minute, I was shot After 2 minutes, I could hardly hold the gloves up anymore, it was hilarious.

I think he'll get there as a runner, but I'm glad the club is taking the path they are with him. It's always known that building up endurance for many midfielders is a function of numerous pre-seasons....and Cam has only done 2. And the first year one would have been a very cautious exercise I'd think.

Didn't Martin have the same issue with endurance when he started?

 

[Gabbattoir]

Cam reminds me of a very young Leigh Mathews . OK it's drawing a long bow , but the same powerful tree trunk legs and the weaving path to goal. He only needs to end up being half as good.

Obviously he's struggling a bit ,probably with injury,but he has a fierce passion for the contest . I think he and Charlie are suffering from the same disease at the moment ,trying to pull off the impossible and be focal points. All they need to do is concentrate on being good crumbing forwards who lead up into space and then tackle and defend strongly when the ball is on the way out. Just do the basic things well.

When I see Rayner, I think Dane Swan.
That waddle like run with quick short bursts. Gifted around goal. Swan learnt to manage his endurance into quick bursts. Became untaggable. Think and hope Rayner will turn out similar.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

But why did he do boxing sessions when he hasn't got a tank for running? Why didn't he just do more running?

I think they were my favourite posts.

*Edit, anyone else out there try to increase your running program too fast too quick? I did. That's how I got ITB syndrome. Horrible horrible thing.

I used to play summer soccer when I was about 30 and always was pretty fit .
Anyway I did boxing as to improve my fitness and found no amount of running will get you cardio fit as much as boxing.
Part of the training was sprint training and interval training where you do a 100 meters starting the first 25meters 3/4 pace then the next 50m sprinting then the last 25 m 3/4 pace sucking it in for 30 seconds then repeat. Doing it about 6 times then I'd do a few laps.
That's where the boxing works hand in hand with running, you can work as hard as you want on the bags but if you don't do the leg training or simply running your leg muscles wont hold up tp the amount of rounds that you need to move to.
Basic stuff. This was all part of cardio and leg endurance.
No idea what Rayner did, just my own experience.

 

[abcde12345]

If people are drawing player comparisons with Rayner, what I really see right now is a lot of De Goey in him. Almost identical height/weight, and very similar strengths (burst speed, strong mark (although I think Rayner's marking has been a bit disappointing this year), and that ability to break apart games). I looked into the stats a bit as well and their first year was almost identical.

This is my take on the whole Rayner situation:

I think the corked thigh has actually had a rather significant impact. First game of the season he was in line with his previous year's performance. Next game the injury occurred mid game. Significant drop in output against Port, has slowly improved since. I think this has given off a much more "unfit" impression to the observer than we should realistically have.

I think people should have realistic expectations and goals from Rayner too. He is being played as a forward marking option - in the mould of De Goey as my comments above in my view. We shouldn't therefore be expecting him to crank out 25 disposals every game.

I would suggest that certain other key metrics would be more linked to his development in that role. Those would be his mark count per game (especially inside 50), his goals and conversion (definitely something I would like Rayner to work on), as well as his forward tackling pressure. There are also qualitative attributes that aren't really measured in stats that are important to ensure are further developing (leading patterns etc.). Add in a modest appreciation in his disposal count and I would consider that a good year of improvement. As his tank improves, and he can go for bursts in the midfield, those stats will naturally improve.

 

[royboys4eva]

I have been a little bit disappointed in Rayner's efforts this season but I do think that knock he took in the North game has hindered him. That said when you run over the white line you declare yourself fit and ready to play. I'm hoping the two nice goals he kicked against the Pies will give him a lift and if he can have a break out game this week and kick four + goals, watch him suddenly take off. Just needs an injection boost in confidence like all players.

You look at McCluggage and we all had high hopes with him and he is delivering in spades this year - his 3rd year. Rayner is still a pup.

 

[LongLion]

Lol friend.

Hopefully he can help . I'm pretty sure he's already made some suggestions before this game .

Yea & one of those IIR as a n out was Robertson who was one of our better players I thought

 

[abcde12345]

I just realised I never really aired my thoughts on this game (didn't want to do it while I was so salty after the game...)

The Good:

Hipwood: I thought he had a tremendous game honestly. I thought he really imposed himself on the game, despite it being all one way traffic the other way. I thought if that had been a game we were winning, it would have ended up being a real "breakout" game for him.

Rich: I think Rich continues to standout as consistently in the top couple of players on the team this season. Awesome the way he has reinvigorated his career this season.

McCluggage: I'm really just repeating what everyone is saying, but the kid is a gun. It's amazing how much composure and time he has with the ball (reminds me a lot of Pendlebury)

The Crowd: Great crowd. Don't expect to see anything like that for a while again. The crowd and TV impressions do show there is a real demand for a (successful) footy team up here. Hopefully we can consistently deliver that in the future the way Sydney has over the past decade or two.

Honourable Mentions: I continue to be impressed by Walker - I think he has really had a breakout year (and the back half of last year). Everyone suggesting to throw him forward I think is crazy - no reason to risk throwing his rhythm for maybe having success forward. What if it fails dismally, he loses confidence, starts playing poorly, and then we have issues up both ends. Good defence and then good offence imo.

Other honourable mention to round out the five is Lachie Neale. Despite the teamwide effort to shut him down, he still ended with the second most clearances in the whole game. His disposals were down, and it was definitely not his "best" game, but he performed admirably considering the situation.

The Bad:

McStay: I was expecting this to be a bit of a breakout year to be honest. Been really disappointed so far. Even in round 1 where everyone was talking about the selfless role he played - I still expect you to nab a goal as our marking full forward. That being said - I don't think the calls to switch his role again make sense. He needs continuity, support and guidance. He's 24 this year, normally this is when you start to reap the rewards from your key position players. Honestly, my biggest issue with McStay isn't the output itself, moreso that he never even looks like he's putting himself in spots where he has the potential to reward himself. Maybe some time in the ressies to learn his leading patterns and get some confidence is required.

McInerney: Not a good game for the Big O. A game where Big O and McStay get 1 goal between them is not going to give us many wins I think - and maybe there isn't room enough in the team for both of them? We are getting roughly the same output from both of them, and I wonder if we give one of them some more room to work with, they will be able to collect some of the others slack while giving us room for a pressure forward (Keays). I think Oscar would be the one to keep, as he also has the option to relief tap, whereas I don't think we have seen this from McStay yet? Either way, I think I would persist with McStay for another game or two, putting him on notice, and if he still can't perform then he needs to go find form and learn the craft better in the seconds.

The Small Forwards: I thought Charlie was going to give himself a good look for All-Australian the first couple of rounds this year. Obviously, both his and McCarthy's for has fallen right off. I think they are both trying to do the same thing (be flashy - same with all of our forward line except Hipwood tbh), but there really isn't room for a every small in the forward line to be going for speccies every entry. I think we need a way better defensive output out of these two as well - tackling and groundball should be the focus - ESPECIALLY if we are running 3 tall forwards and 1 medium marking forward. Linc and Charlie both have strong entries for mark/goal of the year, let's focus on the less flashy stuff that wins us games now.

Mathieson/Lyons: Another situation to me where they do mostly the same thing, have mostly the same weaknesses, and therefore only one of them should be in the team. I think Lyons outperforms him in most categories - and I think Mathieson being injured gives Lyons the opportunity to cement his spot. This gives Berry the opportunity to move into his proper position more full time, and gives us the room to bring in more outside speed (I don't think Cutler is really any less accountable than Mathieson defensively either).

The Ugly (on BF):

Rayner: Hasn't been great, but I think the flack he's copping on here is disproportionate to the "poorness" of his output. First game output was acceptable, and I think he's been carrying injury since (I think this is an issue with the selection table, but its at a point where it is pretty much in the past now). You'll notice an upward trend in his stats since round 3 (his injury was part way through round 2) as he works through this. I want to see marks and tackles be the focus, and I'm expecting disposals when he's moving properly to be around 15-18 per game. When you consider he's playing much deeper this season, that's a win. Emphasis on the marking and tackles though - that's where I want to see the most improvement.

Robertson: Don't think he's been nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. He's played two games, and both of those games have been one way traffic for the duration. I think a huge part of the motivation behind his selection is to highlight that we will reward hard workers (hint to some of our players at the moment).

 

[Gibbo_88]

Still a bit shocked over this game. Our defensive set up was pretty much non existent against the bombers and continued into the pies game. When you look at our last big loss (2018 Richmond) and our last time we had 2 big consecutive losses you have to go back to 2017. Pretty surprised that how this team has transformed under Fagan over the last 2 and a bit years that we play two games like that. We can't make an inexperience excuse.

I don't expect us to play finals. Need to bounce back big time and bury a team or two over the next 3 weeks.

 

[jackess]

Clug managed a vote

BRISBANE v COLLINGWOOD
9 Adam Treloar (COLL)
6 Brody Mihocek (COLL)
6 Brodie Grundy (COLL)
3 Scott Pendlebury (COLL)
3 Tom Phillips (COLL)
2 Jaidyn Stephenson (COLL)
1 Hugh McCluggage (BL)