"Sack Goodwin!"

[demondavey]

Exactly. 'Our Brand' or 'Our Style' is out of date now. Problem is, even with a full list to choose from, I'm not convinced we have the list required to succeed in this new format. We desperately need to land a Whitfield, Coniglio or Kelly from GWS, and try bringing in some runners who can use the ball ok. We can quickly turn it around in one off season, but everything has to go right. I'm guessing we need two off seasons to un**** this mess.

Well if manage to snare one of those 3 as you say then we’d be looking a lot better. If we finish with a top 10 pick this year (I don’t know what else we have coming into the draft) we could part with that and a player.

 

[demondavey]

Exactly. 'Our Brand' or 'Our Style' is out of date now. Problem is, even with a full list to choose from, I'm not convinced we have the list required to succeed in this new format. We desperately need to land a Whitfield, Coniglio or Kelly from GWS, and try bringing in some runners who can use the ball ok. We can quickly turn it around in one off season, but everything has to go right. I'm guessing we need two off seasons to un**** this mess.

I wouldn’t say two seasons at all, let’s say we HYPOTHETICALLY got one of those 3 from GWS, our starting 22 next year could be;

Salem May Fritsch
Jetta Lever Hibberd
KK Oliver Whitfield / Coniglio / Kelly
Melksham TMac ANB
Hannan Weidemann Harmes
Gawn Brayshaw Viney
I/C Baker Hore Lockhart AVB

I am using the proviso we might trade a top 10 pick and Petracca for a GWS midfielder. Not sure what the asking price would be but I am sure I’ll get critiqued by the know all types on this board.

 

[saj_21]

The thing about our brand is that it’s focused solely on contested ball winning ability and a manic ferocity at the contest. This was pioneered (originally that is) by the WB and then followed by Richmond. Everyone has caught on to that. Anyone noticed how certain ‘brands’ tend to be certain ‘fads’? Look at the longevity of Hawthorn & Geelong. They play a much more free flowing game, where weight of domination doesn’t go into one component - contested ball winning and tackling. It’s an entire entity working together.

Even the games we lost last year were precursors for bigger issues this year, and the top 4 finish simply highlighted our weakness when we embarrassed ourselves against West Coast. What pisses me off as a supporter is the fact that due to our capitulation last year in the PF, we seemed to take it that our brand would hold up, but opposition works you out pretty quick and our lack of forward thinking has cost us 2019.

I’d have accepted a 7 or 8 finish this year, but we are really looking like a bottom 4 lock right now. It’s not having certain players back either, it’s having a type of effort required for a top 8 side. I refuse to believe St Kilda, Fremantle, Brisbane are better than us, but they’re working harder and playing to their strengths. If you watch our midfield they’re very lazy. Goodwin really has to put it to these guys to play like an AFL side as opppsed to riding coat tails of 2018.

Richmond won the contest ball count 7 times last year. We play completely different football to them.

The doggies in 2016 definitely focused on contested ball, but they pressured around the contest really well. At the moment if we don’t win the footy, there is no pressure on the opposition.

 

[Crusty Demon]

I wouldn’t say two seasons at all, let’s say we HYPOTHETICALLY got one of those 3 from GWS, our starting 22 next year could be;

Salem May Fritsch
Jetta Lever Hibberd
KK Oliver Whitfield / Coniglio / Kelly
Melksham TMac ANB
Hannan Weidemann Harmes
Gawn Brayshaw Viney
I/C Baker Hore Lockhart AVB

I am using the proviso we might trade a top 10 pick and Petracca for a GWS midfielder. Not sure what the asking price would be but I am sure I’ll get critiqued by the know all types on this board.

Although that team looks good on paper, there are several question marks over many players on that list now.

Can TMac actually play forward of centre? Is Weid any good? Not sold on that combo over a decent stretch of time. Quick precise ball movement and a tweak to a forward structure would help. Is Hibberd and Jetta done? Can Viney survive with the direction the game has gone? Will ANB improve? Will AVB ever put together a long stretch of games?

Can Lever and May even play well together? We have so many of these questions we need to figure out. If we think getting a GWS star will solve all our problems, we wont go anywhere. A small bonus is we have 3/4 of a season left to find some answers, but i hope in the meantime we are picking a free agent to target and will.go hard. We need a Tomlinson type, and we absolutely could do with a Kelly, Whitfield type. Hard to get, but not impossible. I like the 1st Round plus Petracca trade with a first round coming back maybe for a GWS star..

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Coniglio is not what we need.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Our trading over the last 5 years hasn't yielded great results as well, bad luck with injuries hasn't helped but we've had some shockers:

2014
Garlett - Good early but has since dropped off completely
Lumumba - Disaster, Fail
Frost - Has been ok

2015
Kennedy - Delisted, Fail
Melksham - Our best trade over the last 5 years
Bugg - Delisted, Fail

2016
Lewis - He's provided us with experience and occasionally plays a good game. He cost us next to nothing so still a good trade
Hibberd - Brilliant in his first year with us but has since gone backwards pretty quickly
McKenna - Delisted, Fail

2017
Balic - Delisted, Fail
Lever - Injuries has limited him to just 11 games, once he settled in he showed his value

2018
May - Injuries
KK - Injuries
Preuss - Looks pretty good so far

 

[Topkent]

Coniglio is not what we need.

We need to change about 6-8 players in our 22. May Lever and Hannan are 3 of those the rest will probably take a couple years. One player won't be enough.

 

[Grimesy87]

I wouldn’t say two seasons at all, let’s say we HYPOTHETICALLY got one of those 3 from GWS, our starting 22 next year could be;

Salem May Fritsch
Jetta Lever Hibberd
KK Oliver Whitfield / Coniglio / Kelly
Melksham TMac ANB
Hannan Weidemann Harmes
Gawn Brayshaw Viney
I/C Baker Hore Lockhart AVB

I am using the proviso we might trade a top 10 pick and Petracca for a GWS midfielder. Not sure what the asking price would be but I am sure I’ll get critiqued by the know all types on this board.

Forget petracca, gws would be one of the club's not interested in him. His most likely destinations would be Adelaide, bulldogs, Sydney and hawthorn. He's unlikely to go interstate I'd imagine, so you're looking at trading for currency then on trading.

Coniglio is an absolute gun. But he's not exactly lightning quick, and his foot skills are probably only on par with other midfielders. Essentially he is an upgrade on brayshaw, or what we hoped viney would be pre-injury. Now, viney is clearly non tradeable. We might sit here and go "yeah trade him he's cooked" but at what cost? Get a late first at absolute best, and lose your heart and soul skipper. Trade brayshaw? On the back of 3rd in a brownlow, and still averaging elite numbers, with his biggest flaw being his ability to consistently hit targets inside 50? That's a massive call, especially a player only 23 years old, and 60 odd games.

Our troubles are well documented. We lack spread around the ground. This is highlighted by having only 1 player in the top 100 for marks (melksham) so clearly we are not connecting, linking up and ball retention is a clear by product (or lack thereof). We turn the ball over by hand and foot, and typically this happens in the most dangerous part of the ground- the top of our 50m arc. The reason this is the most dangerous part of the ground, it constantly leaves our defenders out numbered in our defensive half, and our midfielders already being in aggressive positions with our press, meaning the opposition have a clear run to link up through the middle of the ground and link up through our average paced midfield who choose not to run hard defensively. How many times this year have we seen that transition and have an easy score against us?

Before we go trading players like petracca (again, just turned 23 and 60 odd games) we need to identify why we keep turning over the ball where we do (averaging 8 more turnovers per game, or 10% more), why we aren't linking up and keeping the ball in possession (we are averaging 50 disposals less per game this year).

I personally think it's time to get Fritsch back higher up the ground, he delivers the ball well, finds space and can also lead and mark between the arcs. He's a player who can get the ball 19-23 times a game and with his skills, ensure we keep possession longer. This year he's averaging 15 down back. We need more. Ideally we would have lever. But you can't help injury. I don't see why keitly can't come in for a look at Half back. He reads the play ok and takes marks.

McDonald needs to go forward, either play him further up the ground, or start him on the wing early then push forward. Get him involved early. If we are to get our scoring funk on, he needs to lead it. Weideman just isn't marking the ball. Up the ground, he jumps from side on and gets no penetration through the air. I had a heap of faith even before the finals last year, but he looks either injured, unfit or as if his role is confusing him. Too often he and McDonald fly for the same ball. No leading patterns or separation between them either. I genuinely think we miss hannan across half forward as he can get separation and can kick a goal, as well as tackles, and when it's on the ground he is dangerous. Without him there, we need Lockhart to play above himself, we need Garlett to do something (anything) and while hunt was ok over a couple of games, he doesn't seem to have the footy smarts to know where and when to lead.

Quite simply, our midfielders need to work harder defensively. The amount of times against st Kilda I saw Jones, Oliver etc jogging back in the middle of the ground while saints wingers/half forward had metres of space in front of them. But it wasn't just the saints, it was essendon too, I'm sure too against port. Against Richmond the effort was better, but we wasted too much petrol on turnovers.

I still believe our defensive issues are mostly a by product of where we turn the ball over, and our midfielders inability to push back hard enough often enough, and our forwards are struggling to separate, leading either the wrong places or at the wrong times. Our midfielders need to start keeping hold of the ball a lot better, move to space and take a few shorter options. More high percentage kicking to advantage. Until we focus on these efforts, and I say efforts as they can do it, the personnel has shown that enough over various games past 2 years, then we will continue to struggle. The Coniglio, Kelly types are obvious guns, but our issues are more focussed on smarts/efforts than wholesale "trade everyone" mindsets.

 

[Grimesy87]

Richmond won the contest ball count 7 times last year. We play completely different football to them.

The doggies in 2016 definitely focused on contested ball, but they pressured around the contest really well. At the moment if we don’t win the footy, there is no pressure on the opposition.

Bingo

 

[blitznu]

Forget petracca, gws would be one of the club's not interested in him. His most likely destinations would be Adelaide, bulldogs, Sydney and hawthorn. He's unlikely to go interstate I'd imagine, so you're looking at trading for currency then on trading.

Coniglio is an absolute gun. But he's not exactly lightning quick, and his foot skills are probably only on par with other midfielders. Essentially he is an upgrade on brayshaw, or what we hoped viney would be pre-injury. Now, viney is clearly non tradeable. We might sit here and go "yeah trade him he's cooked" but at what cost? Get a late first at absolute best, and lose your heart and soul skipper. Trade brayshaw? On the back of 3rd in a brownlow, and still averaging elite numbers, with his biggest flaw being his ability to consistently hit targets inside 50? That's a massive call, especially a player only 23 years old, and 60 odd games.

Our troubles are well documented. We lack spread around the ground. This is highlighted by having only 1 player in the top 100 for marks (melksham) so clearly we are not connecting, linking up and ball retention is a clear by product (or lack thereof). We turn the ball over by hand and foot, and typically this happens in the most dangerous part of the ground- the top of our 50m arc. The reason this is the most dangerous part of the ground, it constantly leaves our defenders out numbered in our defensive half, and our midfielders already being in aggressive positions with our press, meaning the opposition have a clear run to link up through the middle of the ground and link up through our average paced midfield who choose not to run hard defensively. How many times this year have we seen that transition and have an easy score against us?

Before we go trading players like petracca (again, just turned 23 and 60 odd games) we need to identify why we keep turning over the ball where we do (averaging 8 more turnovers per game, or 10% more), why we aren't linking up and keeping the ball in possession (we are averaging 50 disposals less per game this year).

I personally think it's time to get Fritsch back higher up the ground, he delivers the ball well, finds space and can also lead and mark between the arcs. He's a player who can get the ball 19-23 times a game and with his skills, ensure we keep possession longer. This year he's averaging 15 down back. We need more. Ideally we would have lever. But you can't help injury. I don't see why keitly can't come in for a look at Half back. He reads the play ok and takes marks.

McDonald needs to go forward, either play him further up the ground, or start him on the wing early then push forward. Get him involved early. If we are to get our scoring funk on, he needs to lead it. Weideman just isn't marking the ball. Up the ground, he jumps from side on and gets no penetration through the air. I had a heap of faith even before the finals last year, but he looks either injured, unfit or as if his role is confusing him. Too often he and McDonald fly for the same ball. No leading patterns or separation between them either. I genuinely think we miss hannan across half forward as he can get separation and can kick a goal, as well as tackles, and when it's on the ground he is dangerous. Without him there, we need Lockhart to play above himself, we need Garlett to do something (anything) and while hunt was ok over a couple of games, he doesn't seem to have the footy smarts to know where and when to lead.

Quite simply, our midfielders need to work harder defensively. The amount of times against st Kilda I saw Jones, Oliver etc jogging back in the middle of the ground while saints wingers/half forward had metres of space in front of them. But it wasn't just the saints, it was essendon too, I'm sure too against port. Against Richmond the effort was better, but we wasted too much petrol on turnovers.

I still believe our defensive issues are mostly a by product of where we turn the ball over, and our midfielders inability to push back hard enough often enough, and our forwards are struggling to separate, leading either the wrong places or at the wrong times. Our midfielders need to start keeping hold of the ball a lot better, move to space and take a few shorter options. More high percentage kicking to advantage. Until we focus on these efforts, and I say efforts as they can do it, the personnel has shown that enough over various games past 2 years, then we will continue to struggle. The Coniglio, Kelly types are obvious guns, but our issues are more focussed on smarts/efforts than wholesale "trade everyone" mindsets.

Couldnt be ****ed reading past Coniglio. But he kicked 4 yesterday name the last time any mid has gone close to that for us. Hes an upgrade on any of the shit kicking pricks we have ball chasing

 

[saj_21]

Couldnt be ****** reading past Coniglio. But he kicked 4 yesterday name the last time any mid has gone close to that for us. Hes an upgrade on any of the shit kicking pricks we have ball chasing

Harmes kicked 3 against Essendon

 

[blitznu]

Harmes kicked 3 against Essendon

Well ****... Harmes seems to be our only goal kicking mid

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Coniglio three years ago was what Brayshaw is now. Not saying Brayshaw will ever be as good but rather that everyone is wearing rose coloured glasses when it comes to his flaws. Give me one Whitfield or Kelly over two Coniglios rn

 

[Tulip]

Anyone noticed how certain ‘brands’ tend to be certain ‘fads’? Look at the longevity of Hawthorn & Geelong. They play a much more free flowing game, where weight of domination doesn’t go into one component - contested ball winning and tackling. It’s an entire entity working together.

Both absolutely had distinctive brands. Remember Hawthorn's left-footers playing keepings off during the threepeat? The difference is that they don't pat themselves on the back for a season well done, but actually try and improve their game plan year on year.

 

[Tulip]

Coniglio three years ago was what Brayshaw is now. Not saying Brayshaw will ever be as good but rather that everyone is wearing rose coloured glasses when it comes to his flaws. Give me one Whitfield or Kelly over two Coniglios rn

Terrible post lol. Gus being a few years off Cogs is exciting for us, not a reason to suggest Cogs is a fraud and Whitfield / Kelly are way better. Coniglio is better than Kelly.

 

[Tulip]

I wouldn’t say two seasons at all, let’s say we HYPOTHETICALLY got one of those 3 from GWS, our starting 22 next year could be;

Salem May Fritsch
Jetta Lever Hibberd
KK Oliver Whitfield / Coniglio / Kelly
Melksham TMac ANB
Hannan Weidemann Harmes
Gawn Brayshaw Viney
I/C Baker Hore Lockhart AVB

I am using the proviso we might trade a top 10 pick and Petracca for a GWS midfielder. Not sure what the asking price would be but I am sure I’ll get critiqued by the know all types on this board.

GWS shed the likes of Scully so they could keep their big three.

 

[Tulip]

Couldnt be ****** reading past Coniglio. But he kicked 4 yesterday name the last time any mid has gone close to that for us. Hes an upgrade on any of the shit kicking pricks we have ball chasing

Cogs has never gone above 71% DE in his career (2017). Going at 60% this year. The Brayshaw comparison is a very good one. He went at 72% in 2017 but has yet to exceed that. Both at 66 last season. 22 and 23 goals respectively last year too. Both have 6 this year. Cogs has just been around longer so had learned how to make the most of his slightly dodgy boot, Gus has some time to go. There's a reason Gus is rated super highly by every opposition fan, but a handful of Dees fans aren't big on him. The grass is always greener on the other side, and opposition fans tend to overlook faults in players that aren't theirs.

 

[demondavey]

Richmond won the contest ball count 7 times last year. We play completely different football to them.

The doggies in 2016 definitely focused on contested ball, but they pressured around the contest really well. At the moment if we don’t win the footy, there is no pressure on the opposition.

I am comparing us to Richmond re pressure more so

 

[demondavey]

Coniglio is not what we need.

I did actually say Coniglio, Whitfield or Kelly

 

[demondavey]

GWS shed the likes of Scully so they could keep their big three.

That doesn’t mean one won’t go

 

[demondavey]

Forget petracca, gws would be one of the club's not interested in him. His most likely destinations would be Adelaide, bulldogs, Sydney and hawthorn. He's unlikely to go interstate I'd imagine, so you're looking at trading for currency then on trading.

Coniglio is an absolute gun. But he's not exactly lightning quick, and his foot skills are probably only on par with other midfielders. Essentially he is an upgrade on brayshaw, or what we hoped viney would be pre-injury. Now, viney is clearly non tradeable. We might sit here and go "yeah trade him he's cooked" but at what cost? Get a late first at absolute best, and lose your heart and soul skipper. Trade brayshaw? On the back of 3rd in a brownlow, and still averaging elite numbers, with his biggest flaw being his ability to consistently hit targets inside 50? That's a massive call, especially a player only 23 years old, and 60 odd games.

Our troubles are well documented. We lack spread around the ground. This is highlighted by having only 1 player in the top 100 for marks (melksham) so clearly we are not connecting, linking up and ball retention is a clear by product (or lack thereof). We turn the ball over by hand and foot, and typically this happens in the most dangerous part of the ground- the top of our 50m arc. The reason this is the most dangerous part of the ground, it constantly leaves our defenders out numbered in our defensive half, and our midfielders already being in aggressive positions with our press, meaning the opposition have a clear run to link up through the middle of the ground and link up through our average paced midfield who choose not to run hard defensively. How many times this year have we seen that transition and have an easy score against us?

Before we go trading players like petracca (again, just turned 23 and 60 odd games) we need to identify why we keep turning over the ball where we do (averaging 8 more turnovers per game, or 10% more), why we aren't linking up and keeping the ball in possession (we are averaging 50 disposals less per game this year).

I personally think it's time to get Fritsch back higher up the ground, he delivers the ball well, finds space and can also lead and mark between the arcs. He's a player who can get the ball 19-23 times a game and with his skills, ensure we keep possession longer. This year he's averaging 15 down back. We need more. Ideally we would have lever. But you can't help injury. I don't see why keitly can't come in for a look at Half back. He reads the play ok and takes marks.

McDonald needs to go forward, either play him further up the ground, or start him on the wing early then push forward. Get him involved early. If we are to get our scoring funk on, he needs to lead it. Weideman just isn't marking the ball. Up the ground, he jumps from side on and gets no penetration through the air. I had a heap of faith even before the finals last year, but he looks either injured, unfit or as if his role is confusing him. Too often he and McDonald fly for the same ball. No leading patterns or separation between them either. I genuinely think we miss hannan across half forward as he can get separation and can kick a goal, as well as tackles, and when it's on the ground he is dangerous. Without him there, we need Lockhart to play above himself, we need Garlett to do something (anything) and while hunt was ok over a couple of games, he doesn't seem to have the footy smarts to know where and when to lead.

Quite simply, our midfielders need to work harder defensively. The amount of times against st Kilda I saw Jones, Oliver etc jogging back in the middle of the ground while saints wingers/half forward had metres of space in front of them. But it wasn't just the saints, it was essendon too, I'm sure too against port. Against Richmond the effort was better, but we wasted too much petrol on turnovers.

I still believe our defensive issues are mostly a by product of where we turn the ball over, and our midfielders inability to push back hard enough often enough, and our forwards are struggling to separate, leading either the wrong places or at the wrong times. Our midfielders need to start keeping hold of the ball a lot better, move to space and take a few shorter options. More high percentage kicking to advantage. Until we focus on these efforts, and I say efforts as they can do it, the personnel has shown that enough over various games past 2 years, then we will continue to struggle. The Coniglio, Kelly types are obvious guns, but our issues are more focussed on smarts/efforts than wholesale "trade everyone" mindsets.

I am not disagreeing with any of that, and I maintain this quagmire we are in is primarily effort based, however my thoughts on the Petracca trade would be to acquire a gun Giant midfielder and seriously, Coniglio would be excellent as that outside player.

Fixing the issues would be to fix the outside issue. It’s something that’s such a poignant problem that it has to be remedied and no current Melbourne player looks able to do it.

 

[saj_21]

I am comparing us to Richmond re pressure more so

Even then it’s different again. Tigers wouldn’t worry to much about the clearance differential either. There defensive structure was so reliable even if they lost a clearance they would win it back move it quickly forward anyway possible and then lock it in the forward 50. That’s where they applied the pressure

 

[demondavey]

Even then it’s different again. Tigers wouldn’t worry to much about the clearance differential either. There defensive structure was so reliable even if they lost a clearance they would win it back move it quickly forward anyway possible and then lock it in the forward 50. That’s where they applied the pressure

Ok so what I am saying is we applied immense pressure on the ball carrier in a similar fashion to Richmond, irrespective of where the ball was or is, our pressure last year at times was ferocious.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Terrible post lol. Gus being a few years off Cogs is exciting for us, not a reason to suggest Cogs is a fraud and Whitfield / Kelly are way better. Coniglio is better than Kelly.

Coniglio is a rank kick, hasn’t got anything on Kelly.

 

[schmuttt]

Coniglio is a rank kick, hasn’t got anything on Kelly.

Coniglio is a better player than Kelly mate.