Player Watch Darcy Moore

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sr36 said:
I generally like to keep the lid off, but I do think we're going pretty early on Darcy to be mentioning him alongside these guys.
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It's not just us, it's greats of the game putting the seed in our and his head... for some reason he gets these enormous plaudits already on his potential despite some others doing a better job than him so far but people were saying Darcy is AA quality for what he did LAST year... I can see it, there is something else about Darcy, he's better higher and lower, McGovern is probably better in between and so was Lake but for the extreme highs and down low balls Moore is pretty supreme. He just hasn't done it long. He needs a bigger body of work but the so called experts are going early so why can't we lol.
 

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sr36 said:
He didn't play in the zoning off era, so it's not a fair comparison.

Are you open to the possibility that you are over-compartmentalising players. Eg. not seeming to care much about run and carry/ ball use, etc. if you've pegged a player to a position where you don't see those attributes as being significant to their core role.
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Some attributes are relatively more relevant to some positions than others.

1v1 strength and the ability to keep you feet in a marking contest against a 90kg+ big for a key position player is essential but for a wingman it's a nice to have that may enable them to play fwd/back as required but it's not a make-or-break thing.

Looking at players/positions by attributes and recognising what attributes have the greatest importance is hugely beneficial because it can open your eyes to positional opportunities that may not have been considered but may at the end of the day allow someone to get more out of themselves than they would if they stayed put.

Guys like Liam Jones, Josh Walker, Majak Daw. There are bigs who don't have key forward talent. But then you really break down their games, understand their physical profiles and what they can do and it shouldn't be surprising they've been able to make the switches to playing key defence.

Nick Riewoldt, Matthew Richardson, Justin Westhoff. Looking at them and understanding how elite their endurance is at their positions. You can play them forward and they'll be fine, but with endurance and with additional weapons to go with it there is no reason you can't play them on the wing if it suits what you want to do better.

Understanding which combinations of attributes best blend and create the best success in particular positions is essential knowledge for coaches and recruiters alike in assessing a players viability both immediately and over the long term and how they'll blend with their teammates and what positional opportunities you may have with a player. It's something conceptually that needs to be spoken about a lot more. And I'd say the same from an analytical standpoint when looking at who is better than who. Assess those key variables of greatest value towards winning and the lack of which attributes hurt most towards that goal of winning and plug them in.

And there will always be guys who change the game, change positions, add new dimensions. So your values have to evolve and adjust with them.

From a run and carry/ball use perspective. Traditionally it's not something key defenders have. It's a nice to have and a definite asset to have. Certainly in my other defenders I'd be placing a heavy premium again not only on that intercepting/1v1 ability but then also having that offensive weapon of either a kick or running component.

As with key defenders, my view with any other defenders is the same. If you're not intercepting or rebounding. You're not good to me. There isn't in an optimised setup a place for a straight up pure negating player. You need guys who can still do that, but they can't only do that or you're sitting on a player that takes away from winning.

sirlothie said:
What do you think of Moore comparisons to Peter Knights? I know he is beyond most of us seeing him in the flesh but is renowned as one of the great aerialists and a few commentators have made a link between Moore and Knights.



For mine Knights is an even greater aerialist than McGovern and Moore can get himself up to similar heights of Knights but often doesn't go for the mark, if he starts doing that and backing himself to mark it you reckon he can overtake McGovern and become Knights mk II?
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188cm. That translates basically to Jeremy Howe with that aerial prowess. And if needbe Howe can play taller. But that's largely what he'd be today as a lighter bodied 188cm athletic defender.

And Howe isn't a scrub. He should have been All-Australian a couple of years back for mine. And Knights is compatible with today's game. But he's not really a full-time key position player and Knights at that height wouldn't be best used as that today either.
 
sirlothie said:
It's not just us, it's greats of the game putting the seed in our and his head... for some reason he gets these enormous plaudits already on his potential despite some others doing a better job than him so far but people were saying Darcy is AA quality for what he did LAST year... I can see it, there is something else about Darcy, he's better higher and lower, McGovern is probably better in between and so was Lake but for the extreme highs and down low balls Moore is pretty supreme. He just hasn't done it long. He needs a bigger body of work but the so called experts are going early so why can't we lol.
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Yeah stuff it. Keep the lid off. He's looking amazing.

I still think Stevo is going to be the best of our younguns. He'll be taking speckies by the end of the year. In two year's time, once he's added some core strength, he'll be untackable. The "Degoey mid or forward" thread will be replaced with the "Stephenson: Brownlow as a mid or Coleman up forward" thread.
 
sr36 said:
Yeah stuff it. Keep the lid off. He's looking amazing.

I still think Stevo is going to be the best of our younguns. He'll be taking speckies by the end of the year. In two year's time, once he's added some core strength, he'll be untackable. The "Degoey mid or forward" thread will be replaced with the "Stephenson: Brownlow as a mid or Coleman up forward" thread.
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I'm not as big on Stevo yet but I think he has the biggest upside to go yet for us and gee he's dangerous up forward. He can already perfectly bump his defender off the ball and I like how he decides he can't mark it and turns it into a footrace to his advantage which always leads to a goal. He's cluey around goal too, he doesn't need much space to get off a snap at goal and usually drills them but I just haven't been convinced about his work up higher yet. I know he did get more of the ball but didn't seem as damaging in his work there. I'd rather see him kick his 3 or 4 a week, if he's parked permanently forward I can see him sneaking past De Goey for the most goals trophy he's that handy around the sticks.
 
Knightmare said:
From a run and carry/ball use perspective. Traditionally it's not something key defenders have. It's a nice to have and a definite asset to have. Certainly in my other defenders I'd be placing a heavy premium again not only on that intercepting/1v1 ability but then also having that offensive weapon of either a kick or running component.
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This paragraph is what I was getting at with that question. To me, when comparing them to other stars by position it seems to me that you aren't knocking anything off McGovern and Lake for their meh ball use or the little that they offer outside of intercept marking. And you're not adding anything on to a guy like Jako for his run and carry, ground ball game and excellent ball use.

Moore has a long way to go and needs to back it up for a couple of years, but when you look at the whole package that Moore delivered the other night against Port, if he keeps that up, he goes past the package of footy that McGovern and Lake have delivered, regardless of whether they have a few more ticks in the intercept column.

But let's face it, there's a fair bit of guess work we all do when we decide what skills and achievements are more valuable.
 
sr36 said:
This paragraph is what I was getting at with that question. To me, when comparing them to other stars by position it seems to me that you aren't knocking anything off McGovern and Lake for their meh ball use or the little that they offer outside of intercept marking. And you're not adding anything on to a guy like Jako for his run and carry, ground ball game and excellent ball use.

Moore has a long way to go and needs to back it up for a couple of years, but when you look at the whole package that Moore delivered the other night against Port, if he keeps that up, he goes past the package of footy that McGovern and Lake have delivered, regardless of whether they have a few more ticks in the intercept column.

But let's face it, there's a fair bit of guess work we all do when we decide what skills and achievements are more valuable.
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It's absolutely an addition if you can run, or you can kick. That applies to any position. You have to consider everything that adds to winning and they're things if can be applied help. And being able to provide run, being able to use it out of defence, shut down opponents. Anything a guy can do, they're additions. No debate.

Lake was a safe user. He was fine. McGovern I have no ball use issues with either. Largely similar stories to most other key defenders. If they're damaging kicks as say prime Ben Reid was in 2010/2011, that obviously would have taken their games to entirely different levels.

It's just in those areas I weight most heavily McGovern/Lake come out overwhelmingly on top of certainly anyone else with significant separation of all other key defenders past and present.

There is a new generation who are starting more-so to do similar things to a very good level so Lake and McGovern 20-30 years from now if we have the same conversation are unlikely to be those top guys in my list then, with the game moving more in that direction where we're starting to see more of those types.

Ultimately we're all going to have our different criteria and different parts to the game we valuable more highly than others or by position may associate certain attributes/strengths more-so with winning.
 
Pragmatic Shill said:
He didn't really go coy. He asked what the mystery injury was and said he wasn't aware of one.
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A matter of interpretation I guess. In the past when he has said he hasn't spoken to Darcy about stuff like this my bull&^itometer has been at 10 and that was the feeling I got this morning.

Hoping my gut is wrong :)
 
PIEWITHSAUCE said:
A matter of interpretation I guess. In the past when he has said he hasn't spoken to Darcy about stuff like this my bull&^itometer has been at 10 and that was the feeling I got this morning.

Hoping my gut is wrong :)
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Pretty sure Tom Browne reported that it was a precautionary scan on his ankle and it came back all clear last night on Talking Footy.
 

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sr36 said:
Yeah stuff it. Keep the lid off. He's looking amazing.

I still think Stevo is going to be the best of our younguns. He'll be taking speckies by the end of the year. In two year's time, once he's added some core strength, he'll be untackable. The "Degoey mid or forward" thread will be replaced with the "Stephenson: Brownlow as a mid or Coleman up forward" thread.
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After 32 games;

DeGoey averaged 16.3 possessions and .47 goals a game.
Stepho averaged 13.0 possessions and 1.41 goals a game.

Very likely chance that you are correct.
 
Apex36 said:
Pretty sure Tom Browne reported that it was a precautionary scan on his ankle and it came back all clear last night on Talking Footy.
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Thanks APEX as I have been probing everywhere for some snippet of info for his injury and if above true that is great news and Tom Browne to be respected as a Journo.Was concerned when Pickers didn't give his usual response "That he is fine".
 
BIGNEDKELLY said:
After 32 games;

DeGoey averaged 16.3 possessions and .47 goals a game.
Stepho averaged 13.0 possessions and 1.41 goals a game.

Very likely chance that you are correct.
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Decent return by De Goey there. If we switch him into the midfield he might drop down to 25 goals a game or so. Should still get us a win.
 
Knightmare said:
It's absolutely an addition if you can run, or you can kick. That applies to any position. You have to consider everything that adds to winning and they're things if can be applied help. And being able to provide run, being able to use it out of defence, shut down opponents. Anything a guy can do, they're additions. No debate.

Lake was a safe user. He was fine. McGovern I have no ball use issues with either. Largely similar stories to most other key defenders. If they're damaging kicks as say prime Ben Reid was in 2010/2011, that obviously would have taken their games to entirely different levels.

It's just in those areas I weight most heavily McGovern/Lake come out overwhelmingly on top of certainly anyone else with significant separation of all other key defenders past and present.

There is a new generation who are starting more-so to do similar things to a very good level so Lake and McGovern 20-30 years from now if we have the same conversation are unlikely to be those top guys in my list then, with the game moving more in that direction where we're starting to see more of those types.

Ultimately we're all going to have our different criteria and different parts to the game we valuable more highly than others or by position may associate certain attributes/strengths more-so with winning.
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I think a lot of our different point of view comes down to a difference in footy philosophy. I view the game as a game that's won and lost depending on how well you attack and defend. Whereas I get the impression that you may view the game as one where you win or lose by controlling possession.

From my perspective of attack and defend, Scarlett, Jakovich and the way Moore is projecting are the ones I want, because they defend so well through a combination of marking and punching - which I think you are underrating as it regularly leads to team intercepts. But they also contribute to attacking by running with the ball, taking the game on and using it effectively. Lake and McGovern defend really well through marking it, but their 'safe' ball movement actually restricts attack as it allows the opposition to set up behind the ball.

Whereas if you're looking from a perspective of controlling possession, McGovern and Lake with their outstanding intercept marking and safe ball movement are probably the one's to go for. I just don't agree with the controlling possession perspective.
 
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