Which list would you rather going forward - Hawthorn or Sydney?

[Big Blood]

sydney have no a grade mids

at the very least hawthorn have one to return

Yeah Sydney getting smashed in midfield every week - clearly our biggest weakness. Papley, Florent, Hewett, Jones are capable but you can't challenge for the flag without a couple of elite mids. Parker's already 27 this year. Having said that Blakey will likely end up in midfield and Rowbotham will be a keeper but too early to get a measure of him, so cupboard isn't completely bare.

Hawks have Mitchell, O'Maera, Scully... definitely way ahead of us there. Plus our lack of depth is really showing us up this year.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I admit that I don't follow Sydney that closely, so perhaps I'm under-rating some guys. But even with the top-ups from other clubs (Thurlow, Menzel etc), it seems you have a massive 'gap' in your list in the mid 20s range.

You're really very dependent on your ageing stars and promising kids...

Two year trade ban’ll do that to a club.

 

[demondavey]

I'm specifically looking at the midfield as it is the most important part of the ground.

I'm sorry but Mills has been plain garbage. Not sold on him at all. Not many of those you listed (if any) are quality mids.
I'd take Worpel ahead of everyone except Aliir.
I'd take Sicily ahead of everyone except maayybe Aliir.

Also, Aliir and Jones are only about a year younger than Mitchell and O'Meara.

Regardless, both sides are screwed, but I'd say Sydney are in for some real pain.

Hawks will bounce back.

(Senior players)
Breust - 26
Gunston - 27
Stratton - 30
Mitchell - 25
Smith - 30
McEvoy - 29
Shiels - 28
Scully - 27
O’Meara - 25
Burgoyne - 36
Roughead - 32
Henderson - 30
Puopolo - 31
Ceglar - 28
Frawley - 30
Birchall - 31

Looking at that list I reckon 4 blokes might be done at year end; Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall, Puopolo. That’s a ‘might’.

Young players
Sicily - 24
Worpel- 20
Impey - 23
Hardwick - 22
Wingard - 25
Cousins - 21
Scrimshaw - 20
Howe - 23
O’brien - 25

With a stack of footy left in senior players bar the 4 I mentioned, and the best footy in front of the younger players I mentioned, I reckon with the culture and administration Hawthorn has created they’ll add and delete accordingly over the next 3 years and be looking at a flag chance within that timeframe to maximise the existence of those senior players bar the 4 I reckon are close to done.

What they need? Another gun KPD and another solid lead up marking forward that’s bigger than Gunston. They’ll pull something big this off season I guarantee it.

 

[demondavey]

Sydney will be back up there in 2-3 years again so I don’t think they have anything to worry about.

Until Hawthorn fix their lack of quality key position players they won’t be making much inroads anytime soon.

I’m a lot more worried about the lack of quality key position players then the midfield. I personally don’t think the Hawks midfield is that bad. It ain’t the best going around, but it ain’t the worst either.

If you were to take out any teams number one midfielder they too would struggle to win many games.

Agree.

Frawley isn’t far off and Brand is a stop gap. You need a gun KPD. No idea who is on the market but I wouldn’t be surprised if Carlton finish poorly you’d throw a big contract to Weitering.

 

[demondavey]

As far as forwards go I don’t know who would be available as a Roughead replacement.

 

[Elite Master]

I like Hawthorn's list better. The key players are still young and the youth is promising enough.

 

[barry fu]

I understand people hate hawthorn but surely you can’t look at those lists with an unbiased view and say Sydney’s is better. Mitchell, O’Meara, worpel, gunston, Breust, wingard, Scully, Sicily, impey, shiels all have at least 4 years left. There’s at least 6 guys there who have been AA or are capable of getting there. Who on Sydney’s list is capable of that? Heeney will never be a AA mid. Could make it as a half forward but even that’s doubtful. Lloyd is AA quality but a back pocket. Parker isn’t what he used to be. Jones is alright but probably gone at the end of the year. Papleys looking good. Mills has stalled, Allir looks pretty good, the rest seem to be decent roleplayers but not stars of the game. Imagine if Sydney didn’t get Heeney and Blakey on the cheap. Could be a lot worse

Rating a lightweight Lloyd over Heeney The "Half forward" says it all in reguards to your running the rule.

 

[barry fu]

Would rather any clubs list over Sydney. We’re dealing with a club that hasnt had to rebuilt in over 20 years because of salary cap advantages. A culture built around privilege isn’t conducive to bottoming out

Ones silver spoon seems slightly stuck.

 

[Burtman]

Rating a lightweight Lloyd over Heeney The "Half forward" says it all in reguards to your running the rule.

Never said I rated Lloyd as a better player, just that he is AA quality in his position, also where has Heeney played the last 2 years? Hardly goes into the midfield. Good player but there’s about 30 mids who are currently better than him in the league and a fair few half forwards

 

[barry fu]

Never said I rated Lloyd as a better player, just that he is AA quality in his position, also where has Heeney played the last 2 years? Hardly goes into the midfield. Good player but there’s about 30 mids who are currently better than him in the league and a fair few half forwards

I do apologise, I have misread...Surprisingly, Horse picks Heeney The Half Forwards starting spot. Rightly or wrongly.

I understand people hate hawthorn but surely you can’t look at those lists with an unbiased view and say Sydney’s is better. Mitchell, O’Meara, worpel, gunston, Breust, wingard, Scully, Sicily, impey, shiels all have at least 4 years left. There’s at least 6 guys there who have been AA or are capable of getting there. Who on Sydney’s list is capable of that? Heeney will never be a AA mid. Could make it as a half forward but even that’s doubtful. Lloyd is AA quality but a back pocket. Parker isn’t what he used to be. Jones is alright but probably gone at the end of the year. Papleys looking good. Mills has stalled, Allir looks pretty good, the rest seem to be decent roleplayers but not stars of the game. Imagine if Sydney didn’t get Heeney and Blakey on the cheap. Could be a lot worse

 

[drviccles]

Agree.

You need a gun KPD.

Agree with this.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Agree.

Frawley isn’t far off and Brand is a stop gap. You need a gun KPD. No idea who is on the market but I wouldn’t be surprised if Carlton finish poorly you’d throw a big contract to Weitering.

I assume we will try to develop Kosi into that.

Our list is in better shape than Sydney's IMO, but the constant top ups are wearing thin for me. I'm still super frustrated and disillusioned about last year's trade period. We had a young star who simply had a down year after a huge start and we turfed him out for a speculative star who has looked disinterested in recent years.
We missed our chance at taking a first round pick into what many consider to be the best draft in ages. Plus we sent away our first round for this year too.
I would rate us even higher with the combination of Burton and two first rounders than only Wingard.

 

[4THAWN]

I assume we will try to develop Kosi into that.

Our list is in better shape than Sydney's IMO, but the constant top ups are wearing thin for me. I'm still super frustrated and disillusioned about last year's trade period. We had a young star who simply had a down year after a huge start and we turfed him out for a speculative star who has looked disinterested in recent years.
We missed our chance at taking a first round pick into what many consider to be the best draft in ages. Plus we sent away our first round for this year too.
I would rate us even higher with the combination of Burton and two first rounders than only Wingard.

Meh, wouldn't call Burton a star. Had a promising first year, but I've liked what Scrimmers has done so far in 6 games. Scrimshaw will be just as good if not better imo.

 

[4THAWN]

Major thing hawks have over Sydney is going to be salary cap space i reckon, that buddy contract seems pretty scary right now.

 

[RUNVS]

Major thing hawks have over Sydney is going to be salary cap space i reckon, that buddy contract seems pretty scary right now.

The Tippett money is essentially off the books now, as is the Hannebery money and the Smith/Jack/Grundy money will be gone soon as well so our financial situation isn't quite as bad as many people envisage.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Meh, wouldn't call Burton a star. Had a promising first year, but I've liked what Scrimmers has done so far in 6 games. Scrimshaw will be just as good if not better imo.

Well this is when I got sad.

A Hawthorn side with Burton (possibly playing forward since he was drafted as one), Scrimshaw down back and Duursma (taken with the pick we had) on a wing. All super young, great talents and could have been the real foundation of our side with the star power of Mitchell, Sicily and Jager at the top.
Instead we have Chad just adding a bit but not much and Scrimshaw doing what we hoped while Port are reaping the benefits of Burton and Duursma.

 

[bluespooner]

sydney have no a grade mids

at the very least hawthorn have one to return

There's no guarantee on players returning from the type of injury Mitchell suffered.

 

[bluespooner]

Probably Sydney because the two lists are close and Sydney have less money tied up in their young players.



Worpel is still a second year draftee but the other 4 would eat up $2m+. Heeney would be on a decent contract but the rest not a great deal.

Moving forward Hawthorn in a better position to bring in players from other teams based on recent years, Sydney already able to add Blakey, Heeney, Mills without paying market value on draft day.

In 14/15 Sydney got Heeney and Mills. Hawthorn traded for O'Rourke then got Lovell and Burton. It's a fair free kick to the Swans when both teams were top sides.

And their supporters will tell you the AFL doesn't look after them.

 

[MrWoollie]

The Tippett money is essentially off the books now, as is the Hannebery money and the Smith/Jack/Grundy money will be gone soon as well so our financial situation isn't quite as bad as many people envisage.

It was well reported at the time that Buddy's deal was back ended because there wasn't the cap space early on. Sydney also expected at the time to have ongoing COLA, which was replaced by a rental allowance paid by the AFL to the bottom paid half of the players rather than incorporated in the salary cap where it could be mis-used.
Regardless the last 4 years have a $5.0-5.2 Million overhang, which is a lot.

Overall, Sydney have more (and better) young guys, Hawthorn have more (and better) mid age guys and Hawthorn have more and better older guys. This suggests that the Hawks will lose more in the next few years, but will have more at their peak to replace them. Further down track (4-5 years), the Swans may have an advantage with what is coming through. BUT... 5 years is a long time, and in that time it is the mid range players who will be important. And the Swans apparently don't have the money in the pot to recruit those guys, while Hawthorn do. Any salary cap space the Swans have will be needed to up-pay the young guys as they come off contract.

So, while it looks better for the Hawks in the next year or so, and better for the Swans at 4-5 years out, recruiting, drafting and trading will impact both lists. So anything can and will change.

 

[demondavey]

Meh, wouldn't call Burton a star. Had a promising first year, but I've liked what Scrimmers has done so far in 6 games. Scrimshaw will be just as good if not better imo.

This is the angle Clarkson played I reckon. Shift Burton for Wingard but pick up the closest thing to Burton youth wise and that was a disillusioned Scrimshaw who had his knockers from Gold Coast.

 

[demondavey]

The Tippett money is essentially off the books now, as is the Hannebery money and the Smith/Jack/Grundy money will be gone soon as well so our financial situation isn't quite as bad as many people envisage.

What’s going on with Grundy?

 

[RUNVS]

What’s going on with Grundy?

Back injury apparently. He isn't young now unfortunately (almost 33) so I imagine this will be his last year.

 

[sataris]

Sydney also expected at the time to have ongoing COLA, which was replaced by a rental allowance paid by the AFL to the bottom paid half of the players rather than incorporated in the salary cap where it could be mis-used..

Do you even know how COLA worked?

 

[demondavey]

Back injury apparently. He isn't young now unfortunately (almost 33) so I imagine this will be his last year.

Shame, rate him

 

[RUNVS]

Shame, rate him

Never quite been an AA quality defender but was always super close to that level. He is probably the best defender in the AFL not to win an AA if that makes sense. Carved out a great career playing on some very dangerous forwards and usually doing a good job on them too.