List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[raffrox]

So many counter arguments of high caliber.

Sure, the Crows tried to shut the game down but there was no need to get into a game of chicken with who could stifle who the most. It was only when we got behind and they got momentum that we looked to open it up. Too late.

The tigers dictated the play from the opening bounce and it looked like we were trying restrict first, then attack.

We have three forwards who severely rely on confidence (Hogan, Tabs, Cam) and the last few weeks we've screwed with their confidence with how we've supported them going forward.

 

[raffrox]

Lol this article. Yeah I'm sure Ross just flicked the switch to defence cause he hates goals.

Pretty weak analysis. Ironically it's teams that play defensive footy that we are struggling against. So they are not allowing Freo to play the game style that let's them score freely. Obviously that is it's own problem. But anyone who thinks Freo hasn't been attempting to score is kinda idiotic.

No I just think that its harder for Ross to stay the course and to keep attacking when the conditions aren't ideal for it.

You really believe the dna/identity of our team at the moment is a take them on, attacking brand of footy?

Theres been hints of it but i stand by the idea that the last two games have moved us away from this.

I hope this week isn't the third step in a row away from some of the early positive stuff we saw.

 

[E Shed]

I want to think I'm paranoid but part of me believes the more Lyon is criticised for something by the media the more likely he is to double down on it.
That would imply his stubbornness and determination to be the smartest guy in the room overrides a more creative intelligence.
Its like when people were getting into him about the certainty of Blakely being selected he quickly shot down Ryan or whoever it was that said in the media he would love to see Blakely out there. When that happened I thought to myself, I bet he won't select Blakely this week, just to make a point about who calls the shots.
I want to believe the cause & effect I'm drawing isn't true but Ross always seems to double down when the pressure is on him.

 

[salim malik]

The general consensus seems to be he has got his list and he should be given this season to show the improvement we are all looking for. If not he should be moved on.
So far its probably 50/50 and with Hill,Blakely and Logue returning he might just get into the positive by seasons end. Going to be a fascinating next 8 games.

 

[Kram]

I think the club should probably just move him on if we don't at least play finals, the list is too good now for excuses but..

I want to think I'm paranoid but part of me believes the more Lyon is criticised for something by the media the more likely he is to double down on it.
That would imply his stubbornness and determination to be the smartest guy in the room overrides a more creative intelligence.
Its like when people were getting into him about the certainty of Blakely being selected he quickly shot down Ryan or whoever it was that said in the media he would love to see Blakely out there. When that happened I thought to myself, I bet he won't select Blakely this week, just to make a point about who calls the shots.
I want to believe the cause & effect I'm drawing isn't true but Ross always seems to double down when the pressure is on him.

.. this is tin foil hat stuff.

 

[Kram]

No I just think that its harder for Ross to stay the course and to keep attacking when the conditions aren't ideal for it.

You really believe the dna/identity of our team at the moment is a take them on, attacking brand of footy?

Theres been hints of it but i stand by the idea that the last two games have moved us away from this.

I hope this week isn't the third step in a row away from some of the early positive stuff we saw.

Gotta agree with this, it's been disappointing. Thought even in the Bulldogs game there was hints of it as well.

 

[maka]

He’s like an Ex girlfriend, when we first met he was so much fun and exciting, but as the years went on he didn’t treat us as well, everything stopped working, then this season he is trying to show us their is still good in him but ultimately it reverts back to the horrible ways of the last three seasons and we knew why we stopped caring

 

[PurpleEyes]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...l/news-story/28d16712abde4433278a2ae1addade50

I just might leave this here.

I noted a change in our play about three weeks ago.

Apparently I had a hidden agenda.

This is another great example of how the Lyon haters just love any narrative that suits their anti-lyon agenda ... fact or fiction doesn't matter.

Dixon's article would have been almost believable if not for the fact that only 2 of Freo's 16 goals against GWS came from movement through the corridor;
Goal 1 by Hogan which started from a turnover in Freo's Half Back when GWS tried to centre it and it resulted in a quick turnover and transition by Freo.
& Goal 15 again by Hogan which came from a Centre Clearance that Fyfe won and Mundy provided the inside 50.

 

[theGav56]

This is another great example of how the Lyon haters just love any narrative that suits their anti-lyon agenda ... fact or fiction doesn't matter.

Dixon's article would have been almost believable if not for the fact that only 2 of Freo's 16 goals against GWS came from movement through the corridor;
Goal 1 by Hogan which started from a turnover in Freo's Half Back when GWS tried to centre it and it resulted in a quick turnover and transition by Freo.
& Goal 15 again by Hogan which came from a Centre Clearance that Fyfe won and Mundy provided the inside 50.

haha. Well there you go. But you can expect replies about how stats don't show anything, especially compared to the "eye test" and "dem feels".

It is obvious that we have played really inconsistently in terms of game plan and style. For now we are not mature enough as a team to be able to stamp our authority on some of the other opposition, and end up being controlled by them. Pretty mucky to watch.

 

[FreoMonocle]

haha. Well there you go. But you can expect replies about how stats don't show anything, especially compared to the "eye test" and "dem feels".

It is obvious that we have played really inconsistently in terms of game plan and style. For now we are not mature enough as a team to be able to stamp our authority on some of the other opposition, and end up being controlled by them. Pretty mucky to watch.

Steady on Gav, the poor poppets arms are quivering from lactic acid buildup. There is no room for nuance with brick throwing.

 

[raffrox]

This is another great example of how the Lyon haters just love any narrative that suits their anti-lyon agenda ... fact or fiction doesn't matter.

Dixon's article would have been almost believable if not for the fact that only 2 of Freo's 16 goals against GWS came from movement through the corridor;
Goal 1 by Hogan which started from a turnover in Freo's Half Back when GWS tried to centre it and it resulted in a quick turnover and transition by Freo.
& Goal 15 again by Hogan which came from a Centre Clearance that Fyfe won and Mundy provided the inside 50.

I don't hate Lyon. Demonise all you like or actually read some of the sentiment in this thread from Freo supporters.

I've acknowledged several times that I could be wrong. What about yourself? Any chance you could be a tad bias?

 

[raffrox]

haha. Well there you go. But you can expect replies about how stats don't show anything, especially compared to the "eye test" and "dem feels".

It is obvious that we have played really inconsistently in terms of game plan and style. For now we are not mature enough as a team to be able to stamp our authority on some of the other opposition, and end up being controlled by them. Pretty mucky to watch.

To my eye footy reporters pick stats that suit their argument and big footy posters do the same.

Are you saying that big footy posters would have less of an agenda than footy writers?

Theres no real analysis thats done on each side.

 

[Kram]

If we miss finals gotta at the very least win half our games there's too much talent at his disposal now to expect any less, otherwise the club should seriously consider looking elsewhere.

 

[arsesmart]

To my eye footy reporters pick stats that suit their argument and big footy posters do the same.

Are you saying that big footy posters would have less of an agenda than footy writers?

Theres no real analysis thats done on each side.

C'mon, stats are way more reliable than some narrative. Should you think a stat isn't accurate it's a simple process of either demonstrating where it's inaccurate or doesn't tell the whole story with stats that tell a different story or with demonstrations of flawed methodology in collecting those disputed stats.

It's massively strong human phenomenon that preconceptions will drive our understanding of the "facts", which increases in strength the more emotional the topic (hello footy), over facts driving the way we make sense of things. Stats and other more objective/more observational forms of evidence are important to test our impressions and perceptions.

Otherwise, we could join in the game of alternative facts and disregard anything that doesn't suit you claiming the "otherside" is partisan.

 

[Scham]

I want to think I'm paranoid but part of me believes the more Lyon is criticised for something by the media the more likely he is to double down on it.
That would imply his stubbornness and determination to be the smartest guy in the room overrides a more creative intelligence.
Its like when people were getting into him about the certainty of Blakely being selected he quickly shot down Ryan or whoever it was that said in the media he would love to see Blakely out there. When that happened I thought to myself, I bet he won't select Blakely this week, just to make a point about who calls the shots.
I want to believe the cause & effect I'm drawing isn't true but Ross always seems to double down when the pressure is on him.

We both must be paranoid then because I totally agree with you. Was thinking it back when all the Freo supporters and media were wondering why Mora wasn’t getting a go in the league and it certainly seemed the more the support for Mora getting a game grew the more determined Ross became in not playing him. In the end he just had to give in and play him due to his WAFL form.

He certainly hates making changes that have been foreshadowed by someone else.

 

[dockerfemme]

We both must be paranoid then because I totally agree with you. Was thinking it back when all the Freo supporters and media were wondering why Mora wasn’t getting a go in the league and it certainly seemed the more the support for Mora getting a game grew the more determined Ross became in not playing him. In the end he just had to give in and play him due to his WAFL form.

He certainly hates making changes that have been foreshadowed by someone else.

I am a little bit paranoid too, because in the second half of 2015 everyone was suggesting Barlow should be used be used in the guts, and Ross would not do it.

 

[blue shark]

Tactics change against different opponents, and we have mixed results, only Cats have shown consistency.
Our best win was against GWS, and the inside 50's suggest we are much improved.
It's midfield forward, turn overs, intercept and rebound that is our kryptonite. All linked to game plan,
composure, skills, we don't create time and space, our score line strangled.
Sure play on quick, by handball, foot, but not always straight up the line or to stagnate targets.
Which happens when we have too many players clumped together, no seperation.
It's the short kick angled, longer handball and leading patterns, all of the above that needs addressing.
At the moment the opposition just need to congest our forward line, we will struggle to score and they
get us on the rebound.
Mirror Ross defensively and he struggles, it's why we need a specialist forward coach to fix the synergy to score.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

This is another great example of how the Lyon haters just love any narrative that suits their anti-lyon agenda ... fact or fiction doesn't matter.

Dixon's article would have been almost believable if not for the fact that only 2 of Freo's 16 goals against GWS came from movement through the corridor;
Goal 1 by Hogan which started from a turnover in Freo's Half Back when GWS tried to centre it and it resulted in a quick turnover and transition by Freo.
& Goal 15 again by Hogan which came from a Centre Clearance that Fyfe won and Mundy provided the inside 50.

That was my recollection as well, thanks for checking.

I'm all for criticism of Lyon in aspects where I think he's obviously deficient but it would be nice if criticism was actually grounded in reality and not just completely made up.

 

[arsesmart]

I am a little bit paranoid too, because in the second half of 2015 everyone was suggesting Barlow should be used be used in the guts, and Ross would not do it.

I'm not sure about paranoid, maybe just improbable.

It's hard to reconcile that level of irrationality allowing someone to steer teams across two different clubs to 3 or 4 GFs. It's also hard to see that level of ego-centrism inspiring the high regard that so many players hold Lyon in for mentoring and being there for them.

You'd also think that level of near sociopathic self-centeredness would mean that he'd never admit he's wrong and take credit for everything that goes right, which doesn't tee up to Lyon's public statements.

That sort of joining the dots does reek of filling in the blanks with a preconceived story, when outside the club we're not privy to all the information that they would have as a footy department and as coach.

 

[Rion]

Meh bit of an overreaction by Dixon there. I reckon North/GWS haven't exactly been known for playing the defensive side of the game well so of course we're going to be able to execute our gameplan better against those teams. GWS seem to have a propensity to just give the opposing team free reign to do whatever they want (see the Hawthorn drubbing).

If by seasons end we're still only executing the game-plan well 2/8 games then maybe it's a valid talking point.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I mean all you need to know about the Dixon article is bullshit that we struggled to kick 60 points. I'm assuming he's doing that off average, which is a completely ridiculous way to look at 3 games where we scored over 80 twice, then, in a defensive shitfight, had our lowest game of the year.

Its just a really poor look at whats happened without any actual stats or analysis to back it up other than 'feel', which, as Purpleeyes pointed again, is completely false.

Personally I think we have two massive problems at the moment
a) Pressure cripples more than any other team where skills become disgusting under good pressure. I dont have stats to back this up other than watching the game where our worst skilled games (without factors such as dew) were GC, St Kilda and Tigers who all applied terrific pressure. This is 50% on Ross, 50% on need more games as a team to gel and for younger players to mature.
b) We are offensively crippled when teams play a man behind the ball. I think this is a result of the move it long at all costs mantra where we get the ball and rarely have the ability to settle and look for a leading target, or, there is no one leading to the right spots so we bomb it long. We bomb it long way way too much. We also then have every Dockers player in the vincinty go up for the mark which is infuriating. This is 90% structure thing and 10% crumbling under pressure. This is 100% on Ross and Hale to fix and I think it needs to be fixed before the end of the year personnelly

 

[Joao]

I mean all you need to know about the Dixon article is ******** that we struggled to kick 60 points. I'm assuming he's doing that off average, which is a completely ridiculous way to look at 3 games where we scored over 80 twice, then, in a defensive shitfight, had our lowest game of the year.

Its just a really poor look at whats happened without any actual stats or analysis to back it up other than 'feel', which, as Purpleeyes pointed again, is completely false.

Personally I think we have two massive problems at the moment
a) Pressure cripples more than any other team where skills become disgusting under good pressure. I dont have stats to back this up other than watching the game where our worst skilled games (without factors such as dew) were GC, St Kilda and Tigers who all applied terrific pressure. This is 50% on Ross, 50% on need more games as a team to gel and for younger players to mature.
b) We are offensively crippled when teams play a man behind the ball. I think this is a result of the move it long at all costs mantra where we get the ball and rarely have the ability to settle and look for a leading target, or, there is no one leading to the right spots so we bomb it long. We bomb it long way way too much. We also then have every Dockers player in the vincinty go up for the mark which is infuriating. This is 90% structure thing and 10% crumbling under pressure. This is 100% on Ross and Hale to fix and I think it needs to be fixed before the end of the year personnelly

a) applies to all teams and we are by no means the worst. Objectively I would say we are middle of the road on this. North is putrid and the Pies and Cats seem to cope the best.

b) agree and think this is largely due to ignoring the correct option when entering the f50. If they have a spare then someone is free, we just suck at find them. Ross constantly bangs on about it pressers but because I don't watch games live it is hard to tell if that is the truth. It definitely happened at the GC game I was at at least a few times. Would improve out of sight if you added a couple of extra good decision makers/ball users into the team.

 

[One_Wing]

No I just think that its harder for Ross to stay the course and to keep attacking when the conditions aren't ideal for it.

You really believe the dna/identity of our team at the moment is a take them on, attacking brand of footy?

Theres been hints of it but i stand by the idea that the last two games have moved us away from this.

I hope this week isn't the third step in a row away from some of the early positive stuff we saw.

Mate one of the biggest reasons tigers killed us was through rebounding out of our forward 50. i.e our forwards werent playing defensive enough. Laid like three tackles in the forward 50 for the entire goddamn game. That is a lack of defence that got us not an absence of attack.


Ben Dixon seems like he doesn't know what he is talking about. Freo should copy Hawthorn? A team that has won less games and has a lower percentage then Freo.

Earlier he got really mad at Wayne Carey for criticising Hawthorn's style of play this year...think he is just a fanboy lol.

 

[Nothing]

To my eye footy reporters pick stats that suit their argument and big footy posters do the same.

I agree.

Are you saying that big footy posters would have less of an agenda than footy writers?

Yes. A footy writer isn't a footy writer for long if they don't get lots of clicks. Writing a well-researched, thoughtful article takes a lot more time than drumming out a well trotted out line that Freo play too defensive.

Theres no real analysis thats done on each side.

Take the stats and thought that Purple Eyes puts into his posts. They are much better researched (to suit his/her agenda) than that Dixon article that contains no substance. As I said, I doubt Dixon has even watched our games.
You don't look at the analysis that PE and others have done because it goes against your cognitive biases, it doesn't change that the research was done.

 

[Taylor]

There is also an element of validation/confirmation bias to it. You're far more likely to click and read something that you agree with than one that challenges you on your established reality, at least within your own mind.