Being nice
Opinion Stephen Silvagni
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Being nice
"The Stocker trade is a disaster even though Stocker can play."
That makes no sense.
What if Stocker is better than the player Adelaide picks up?
Stocker has been one of our best players.
We also get the Crows 1st round pick back which could be another beauty.
Trading pick 1 is far from ideal, no one wants to do that, including us.
Hopefully Teague kills it as coach and we get 6 more wins and hand the Crows pick 3 and they go to crap and give us pick 7.
This trade is not over yet.
- Thread starter
- #154
I have posted my thoughts about Bolton before. They were never as simplistic as can’t coach, no gameplan.
But keep carrying on like you’re smarter than everyone on here. Keep attacking those who question that maybe things aren’t going so great at a club that’s won 3 ******* games of football in 32 attempts. Your smugness is a joke.
I won’t be going anywhere. I’ve been on this board since 2009 through some brief good times and now a lot of bad times. This idea that me and anyone else who criticises decision making at the club is excited about how much we’ve been failing is laughable. You think I spend hundreds of dollars a year and have spent countless hours of my life watching this club play just hoping they fail? Honestly how detached from reality can you get?
I want us to win. I have no idea how the * you’ve lost sight of that.
POTY
where's your logic that ( I ) got my scalp?Yep. You got your scalp. Congratulations. Now on to the next one
I had nothing to do with 4 wins in 43 games
you need to prove otherwise and that I had a hand in all this or you're trolling!
it's actually you that has been embellishing that you have inside information all along and everything is going to plan
can you now justify your position as someone who had a grip in what's been going on?
you have been very dismissive of anybody who has held out and voiced concerns!
The stage is now open to you to justify your knowledge on the goings on!
You’re the most critical of anyone. Never happy. You got a scalp today. You should be happy.
overall i think sos has done a pretty good job.all things considered.....but lob, at 10 is a bust ,and doing the future trade was wrong,way to risky for us,and going to bite us hard( though stocker looks ok so far).
but all his other picks most other recruiters had the same players we picked in same ball park...our problem for so long now is, we cant develop these kids,
but all his other picks most other recruiters had the same players we picked in same ball park...our problem for so long now is, we cant develop these kids,
You would think now its done that the knifes would be sheathed. And let's see what happens next with some fresh hope and excitement. Nope. Its really just the fights that some are here for. What other conclusion can be drawn ?
Yet another thread dragged down by the same few.
Yet another thread dragged down by the same few.
- Thread starter
- #160
Relates to currency.
I’m probably being somewhat reactionary when it comes to this trade but it now seems unlikely we’ll finish off the bottom.
Stocker looks like he can play and we’ll get another pick. But pick 1 could land you another absolute A grader like a Walsh. They are not easy to come across. If we didn’t want to wait around for a kid, pick 1 could attract some interest from elsewhere in return for an elite senior talent.
The club didn’t expect to be finishing on the bottom when they made that trade. That’s a fact.
Eiffel 65
Cancelled
- Sep 18, 2018
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I can't speak for anyone but I've always been of the opinion that our rebuild has gone to plan.
We haven't made stupid moves and traded away all our draft currency for 'the messiah.'
Yes, the wins are few and far between at the moment but we've established a good core group of players.
The one thing we've missed on is landing one or two decent mature age players that can fill a role and be more than just a list clogger.
Yes, it's unfortunate that we've traded away pick 1 (or most likely) this year but at least our intention was right.
Don't think things are as bad as what they seem.
- Thread starter
- #163
Nobody who supports Carlton is happy that we’ve had to move on another coach without anything being won beforehand.
No one in power at Carlton thought we would be this low this season, yes that is correct.
I suspect internally the powers that be thought it would be pick 4 to the Crows and Stocker plus pick 8-11 back.
We have Walsh.
We have Stocker.
Both look very good. I am very happy with our 2018 draft.
We need wins, then the trade will get look more balanced.
We will be anti-tanking.
Also, we have enough kids. I would rather a big-bodied mature mid than another kid.
Mirror?
- Thread starter
- #166
I’m not happy at all. Hilarious how detached from reality you are.
Would much rather us having a couple of wins right now and looking forward to the rest of the season.
But instead we are 1-10. Very likely to win another spoon.
He turned some literal scrap heap players into gold draft picks early doors.
His draft picks have all been fairly solid but some of his trade depth players and rookie selections have been average at best
Sacking the coach and the list manager in one season would be a mistake IMO. He gets at least another off season to compete what he already has in place.
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His draft picks have all been fairly solid but some of his trade depth players and rookie selections have been average at best
Sacking the coach and the list manager in one season would be a mistake IMO. He gets at least another off season to compete what he already has in place.
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We need a complete look at all assistant coaches, lack of flexible game plan and match day coaching are not all down to Bolton
Rubbish, you take the reason why you're failing. The reason is fairly and squarely because we don't have enough quality 23-30 year olds in our side. Wayne Hughes and Chris Rogers were in charge of recruiting the players to Carlton in these age groups. They didn't because they weren't good enough and the club didn't equip them well enough. Our past is why we are where we are in this present time. We have not had time to move away from our past until we can write that wrong. The only way we right the wrong is to bring in the players they failed to and that is bring in a heap of 23-30 year olds who can play and we are years away from doing that because we have had to rebuild via drafting 18 year olds.
Bolton never had a chance with us, no one did. There was no way any coach would have survived with us rebuilding via the draft on no foundation at this Club.
We've brought in a lot of players with injury history for a good reason, we need talent and they had it and the draft picks you get handed don't give you access to enough players to rebuild a list. You have to take risks or you don't get enough good players. The AFL doesn't give you a heap of good picks anymore and we need more than they give it's that simple. There wasn't another choice here and we did get some good players out of it. Besides our injuries aren't the problem this season, every club has injuries, that's football. You're maths are failing if you think you can just hit the draft and 30 good players will just turn up on your list in 4 drafts.
That's what you need to happen when you try and make up for 10 years of bad drafting in just 4 years. A good list has 3 good players thereabouts and our list probably had a small handful.
Cripps is 23 and probably has another 7 years of good football ahead of him. It's not about getting support for Cripps, his role and how he plays will never change. It's about building a quality side and getting an even spread of quality through the midfield. If we bring in good players who are too old then they won't be there when we peak so it would be wasting picks and actually slowing our rebuild down and compromising the quality and depth of our final product.
O'Shea, Mullett and Fasolo didn't cost us anything, they didn't come onto our list instead of someone good. They were there to fill gaps and fill in when needed. They came in cheap and late and part of it was because every now and then some player like this makes it like Newman who was exactly the same scenario. Can't pull good players out of thin air. It's pointless using these guys as examples as poor list management they were taken when all the talent had ran out and we still had spots. Who would you have brought in instead? Who was available? They were mature age players who filled in for injured players and did their role for a year until we could replace them with young players.
Richmond have found small forwards because they haven't had to focus on rebuilding an entire team the last few seasons. The midfield, talls, defence and every other area of the ground have been covered by Richmond before they brought in small forwards. Richmond went through a 7 year rebuild and drafted their small forwards at the end of it and won a flag and have built sustained success because they did what we are doing and did it patiently. Crazy to compare us to Richmond and if you are, we are at year 4 we haven't got to the draft where they drafted their small forwards yet. If we haven't found good small forwards in the next two drafts then sure, ask questions then but come on. We still haven't built our midfield yet and might need some more smaller defenders.
How on earth does the Stocker trade look like a disaster? Stocker looks like a good young player and we got him for a pick upgrade, didn't cost us a pick. At this stage we have pick 11 which usually holds some really good talent instead of pick 1 and we have picked an extra player with an early pick. If we take it to the draft we should have 3 first round picks in two years and we should have three really good players out of it. If not then it's poor player selection, not a poor move.
Yes there is a lack of experience. You are contradicting yourself completely if you can identify this but are unwilling to blame the past which is when players with experience should have been brought into the club. How can our problem be a lack of experience but lets not blame the past when this is exactly why we lack experience. Because of our past!
SOS was not around when we were drafting players with experience. The first players SOS drafted are only 21. When has SOS had the chance to sacrifice good draft picks to bring in mature players without that sacrificing our rebuild? You have to realise that if SOS spent our premium picks on mature players in the 2015 and 2016 draft we would not have McKay, Curnow, Weitering, Cuningham, SPS, Fisher etc and we would be an older side with really really poor youth and in dire need of some rebuilding. You speak as if SOS should have somehow been able to draft all the good young players he has and also drafted in a whole heap of good older players at the same time. The facts are he couldn't, it was either one or the other. Good mature players cost premium picks and salary and it would completely extend our rebuild period and cost us young players of our future.
No point drafting in older players at the start of a rebuild if they cost you prime picks which they would have and for them to be gone by the end of the rebuild which is now an 8 or 9 year rebuild instead of 7 because you didn't start drafting youth immediately. Would result in a long period of being mediocre and probably no flag opportunity, because this is what it's all about, it's not about being competitive, it's about creating opportunities to win a flag and when you don't have good players to start with you have to take the long road down the bottom.
Comparable to the better team's rebuilding phases, ours is on par. Our drafting is on par. We are doing it on virtually no senior foundations and this is why we're languishing on the bottom for our rebuild. Most teams when they rebuild do it for 6 or 7 years and do it only dropping a few spots with the odd bottom out from when they start. If you start it from the bottom like us you stay down the bottom. If you start it from the middle like Richmond you stay around the middle with a bit of a bottom out here and there, if you start it from the top like Geelong you stay around the top leaking a few good older ones out and a few good younger ones in over the years and retain a good handful of players. I don't find it that hard to understand but it appears most of the footy world and fans do.
It really is maths. Understanding that the first three picks in the draft are reasonable, the rest is luck if you get a player with them. You need around 30-27 good capable players to be a good side. Understanding that not all picks work out and that includes early ones. Understanding it takes players until they are around 22-23 to start playing good consistent football so around 5 or 6 years to develop and play their best footy. Understanding that you need a team of mostly 23-30 year olds to be a good side. Understanding you need to build your core first, tall players and midfielders come first as they take the longest to develop and are the most influential.
Lets understand we have been at it 4 years and we need to turn over every player apart from Cripps and probably Docherty, Jones. Slim Chance of Thomas, Murphy and Kreuzer still being around at the completion of the rebuild. It's a huge job what we are doing and we are only mid way.
If you understand this, do the maths, you will understand what we have done regarding our recruiting really well. You will understand how long this all takes before we can be decent. Add it up and you will see why we have had to throw every decent pick we have at young players and why we have not been able to bring in mature older players of quality. Add it up and you will see we are not expected to improve much this year and next year unless there are some big changes is going to be another development year too.
Us sacking our coach. It's mind boggling how many people can be in an industry and not understand it at all. It's mind boggling how people can't look at where we have come from and what we have started with and do the maths, take all this into account and not get it and not get why we suck.
I wish I felt we had people controlling our club who understood the industry they are in. I just hope that it doesn't mess up our plans because I feel that we are on track, even if we are at the bottom for 5 years I still feel we will get a good result in the 6th and 7th year of our rebuild, especially if we get some mature players in.
In the past you would get a free kick at the start of the rebuild from priority picks. Now I hope we can get our free kick at the end of the rebuild from free agency. Hopefully this is the year we can trade all these picks out and bring in really good mature players.
The amount of players on our list with talent that have been brought in under SOS in just 4 years is huge. Most of them are too young to be having much impact but they are good players.
4 years of drafting under SOS:
Silvagni, Dow, O'Brien, SPS, Kennedy, McKay, McGovern, DeKoning, Stocker, Lang, Walsh, Schumacher, Plowman, Garlett, Marchbank, Weitering, Newman, Fisher, Macreadie, Lobbe, Cuningham, Polson, Curnow, Williamson, Fasolo, Pickett, Phillips, Kerr, Silvagni, O'Dwyer, Setterfield, Gibbons, LeBois, Owies, Goddard, Cottrell, Deluca
10+ Years of the previous regime:
Murphy, Simpson, Kreuzer, Cripps, Jones, Docherty, Curnow, Thomas, Casboult.
Yeah there are some gap fillers and a few good picks that might not work out but that's normal. On our list we have 37 players SOS has brought into our list. You get two good draft picks per season and your third rounder is hit or miss and the 4th rounder and rookie picks are a lottery.
Most of those players taken with good picks and trades aren't 23 yet. They are not prime age but they have talent. Most of the early picks look like being decent players. That's a fair haul in 4 seasons. Those players are going to be playing a long time. Still heaps of work to do as well.
I'm not getting how people believe we have had enough time to build and setup our future and have enough mature players to be competitive. SOS and his team look to have a fair hit and miss rate, people don't seem to get you have misses, even if your the best at this.
You can do everything right for 4 years and still go backwards because it takes so so long to get enough players in and it takes such a long time before young players take effect.
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Jeremias
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- Sep 26, 2004
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- #170
Look, things can always be better, but for mine SOS has overall done an outstanding job.
He came to the club with the directive to effectively blow up the list and start again, and that's exactly what he has done.
In his time at the helm he has brought through an enormous number of quality young kids who will form the core group to take us forward.
They just need time to develop. And that's not something we'll get overnight.
He came to the club with the directive to effectively blow up the list and start again, and that's exactly what he has done.
In his time at the helm he has brought through an enormous number of quality young kids who will form the core group to take us forward.
They just need time to develop. And that's not something we'll get overnight.
- Sep 15, 2011
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SOS has the runs on the board, look a the giants for god sake.
SOS chooses the players he doesn’t develop them. If players are consistently not reaching they’re full potential is that his fault? Injury management? Or Player development?
As SOS stated some players were recruited on the basis that they wouldn’t play first team football but where there to protect the kids in the reserves. Unfortunately we were decimated by injury and they were exposed.
I think the mistake lies more in the Holman, Kerridge and Graham delistings.
Agree we over committed to injury prone players and it appears that all eggs were in the Sheil basket and that wen too close to the wire for us.
Show me someone else who has built a better list than GWS?
SOS chooses the players he doesn’t develop them. If players are consistently not reaching they’re full potential is that his fault? Injury management? Or Player development?
As SOS stated some players were recruited on the basis that they wouldn’t play first team football but where there to protect the kids in the reserves. Unfortunately we were decimated by injury and they were exposed.
I think the mistake lies more in the Holman, Kerridge and Graham delistings.
Agree we over committed to injury prone players and it appears that all eggs were in the Sheil basket and that wen too close to the wire for us.
Show me someone else who has built a better list than GWS?
Seriously you can't even celebrate our wins, a party for a week, one ******* post.
Yet after every loss you are here infesting your bullshit
You want success and you want it yesterday, first the coach and now our list manager, keep going, soon you will be irrelevant
Personally from an outsiders viewpoint i find it baffling that Carlton has decided to go down the path of sacking bolton at this stage
What is to be gained by sacking a coach now ?
With such a young list ( by design) what was he expected to deliver ?
If Carlton had won 2 more games until now would he have been sacked ? What difference would that have made ?
If it was this time next year with 2-3 more mature players at the club and another year into the kids then i could understand
Just feels like the board caved tp media/public pressure
What is to be gained by sacking a coach now ?
With such a young list ( by design) what was he expected to deliver ?
If Carlton had won 2 more games until now would he have been sacked ? What difference would that have made ?
If it was this time next year with 2-3 more mature players at the club and another year into the kids then i could understand
Just feels like the board caved tp media/public pressure
juzz88
Cancelled
Agreed.
"We should be performing better with the list we have".
"We can't expect any better with our current list ".
Pick one.
No point throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Exactly
