Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Can I confirm that the player who played for Melbourne 1909-1910, then Richmond 1911 is named LESLIE GEORGE IRWIN.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Les+Irwin
http://demonwiki.org/Les+Irwin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Irwin_(footballer)


Because:
Here is his clearance from Melbourne to Richmond in 1911 as L. Irwin http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10901250
I then see a permit from Richmond to South Australia in 1913 as Leslie Irwin http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199445029
But the permit in The Argus for the same player appears to give him the middle initial of Leslie B (or R) Irwin.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10781591
which wouldn't correspond to the Les Irwin that Demonwiki have (or Barb Cullen's book), because if we click on the War record at the bottom of Demonwiki it says his name is Leslie George Irwin
http://demonwiki.org/Les+Irwin
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/228134
I think this is him in the 1909 MFC team photo , on his debut.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222254157


Side note:
To make matters worse, I got distracted by a "Jack Irwin" seemingly trying to try out for the club in 1913 for Richmond, from Beverley (which is the team I have Les Irwin coming from prior to going to the Melbourne Football Club) But he might also be the Irwin below who tried out with Melbourne as well.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120600
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254613401

Side note 2:
And Melbourne seems to have played a recruit in 1909 pre season 'Irwin (Melbourne Swimming Club)'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196904165 which Demonwiki note as not the Les Irwin.
 
Last edited:
UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
 
Last edited:
rbartlett said:
UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
Click to expand...
I'm still looking at the O'Brien story for now! The bloody power went off for about an hour tonight; very annoying, just hasn't been my day!
 

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rbartlett said:
My BDM search was obv playing up as I couldnt see any of those deaths - so apologies for that.
This in-depth obit of the drowned Thomas Coleman O'Brien makes no reference of Richmond or Swan Hotel. So still not sure if it is him.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60205231

UPDATE: This from 1914 says he is now up in Sydney http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254623852, perhaps training with Herb McCoy (boxer), or having some connection with him
Not sure if he stayed there, but perhaps he died in NSW somewhere
Click to expand...
This says the licence of the Swan Hotel, South Richmond, was transferred from Thomas Coleman O'Brien to Thomas Michael O'Brien late in 1913: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196228937

The Thomas Coleman O'Brien who died (at Healesville) in 1921 had a father (who also died earlier that year) Thomas Michael O'Brien, according to Vic BDM.

I now think it's extremely likely that this is the right chap! The names fit, he died tragically, and at a reasonably early age. It seems he only had the pub for a year or two at the most, so perhaps that explains why his hotel connection (at least) wasn't 'newsworthy' in 1921.
 
Last edited:
rbartlett said:
UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
Click to expand...
2 things to note that confirm for me that LG is the right person

1. The AIF site does NOT list a George Irwin from SA enlisting
2. The AIF site lists Leslie George Irwin as aged 27 . AF list Irwin born in March 1887 so the January enlistment indeed leaves him at 27 .
 
rbartlett said:
In Richmond's 1908 Annual Report, under Players for that season, it lists two names that have never appeared on any other official lists.

J Green
W Johnson (note that is separately lists A Johnson (sic) who is Alex Johnston)

If anyone comes across who they are, or why they are on that list, please advise.
Perhaps they were practice match players ? , or players permitted to the club that never played a senior game.
Click to expand...

You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
 
rbartlett said:
You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
Click to expand...
Speaking of Robin Court Cricket. I chased up George Lockwood again . George Lockwood was mentioned in a Robin Hood 1918 annual meeting as one of 2 people to have passed away, but I am yet to find any official confirmation anywhere

Last night I came across a conundrum I would like answered if anyone has ideas

One possibility was War Service ( even at 46) yet there are only 2 George Lockwoods and one George Hislop Lockwood died in France in April 1917.

Yet George Hislop Lockwood is listed in 1918 SA BDM death list.

1. Can an overseas death be listed on the home country site? That is the 1st time I have seen an overseas death listed (and a year after)
2. The only Obit notice for a George Hislop Lockwood is a year after in 1918 by his grandfather who lived in WA (yet his mothers maiden name was Chambers)

The timing intrigues me
 
rbartlett said:
You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
Click to expand...
Just in case you're not aware of this, the name Green appeared in the Richmond squad quite a few times in 1908 at least:

For the Rd. 9 game: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/141519080620.html
Rd. 11 he was in the squad again: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919348
For the Rd. 15 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242916694

I haven't seen his name in an actual lineup, however.
 
Last edited:
If you want to numb your brain a little then go and read this thread on the main board about the '1870 debate' being raised by (guess who) Colin Carter yet again.

The argument comes up every couple of years or so. I'd like to see some nuanced discussion around the topic from the members of this board rather than the trolls and simpletons on the MB.

If someone wants to start up a new thread on this Footy History board, they are more than welcome.
 
35Daicos said:
Just in case you're not aware of this, the name Green appeared in the Richmond squad quite a few times in 1908 at least:

For the Rd. 9 game: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/141519080620.html
Rd. 11 he was in the squad again: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919348
For the Rd. 15 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242916694


I haven't seen his name in an actual lineup, however.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder.
I've looked everywhere for him listed in a lineup and still unsuccessful. But you never know what the future research brings.
That and identifying who exactly he is.

Cheers
 

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Just an update for you all. My research into list of captains for VFL/AFL clubs 1897 onwards continues to progress but is still at "draft/incomplete" stage at moment. The Trove newspapers site once again being an invaluable source of information.

Unfortunately, but sadly not unexpectedly, the 2019 Season Guide appears to have numerous errors in the club "honour roll" lists of people shown year-by-year.

Some of these mistakes relate to the player supposedly named as official captain at start of a particular season, and others relate to "official" replacements made during a season. Simply to show the scale of the problem here is list of clubs/seasons needing correction that have been discovered so far:

Carlton - 1898, 1899, 1902, 1922, 1944

Collingwood - 1916, 1917, 1923, 1938

Essendon - 1919,

Geelong - 1919,

Melbourne - 1901, 1911

Nth Melb - 1927,

Richmond - 1914

Sth Melb - 1926

St Kilda - 1899, 1908, 1935, 1940

Given the scale of errors found, I wonder if it ought to be a separate thread when it comes time later to reveal the evidence in support of changes needing to be made ?
 
Probably best for a new thread, maybe a separate post per team.

My historical focus on Fremantle, of course is much easier, only going back 25 seasons, but a few years ago I started trying to document each of the stand in/acting captains when the main captain didn't play.

To date I've used club or newspaper reports to confirm which vice captain took over captaincy duties, but I assume that the AFL receives and keeps official team sheets before each match. Do these nominate a captain? How far back do these team sheets go?
 
ThePope said:
Probably best for a new thread, maybe a separate post per team.

My historical focus on Fremantle, of course is much easier, only going back 25 seasons, but a few years ago I started trying to document each of the stand in/acting captains when the main captain didn't play.

To date I've used club or newspaper reports to confirm which vice captain took over captaincy duties, but I assume that the AFL receives and keeps official team sheets before each match. Do these nominate a captain? How far back do these team sheets go?
Click to expand...

Well done. This research game can be a long, hard slog at times, but oh so worthwhile.

Not sure how much original material is kept/held by AFL House. I remember posing a similar question about Brownlow voting slips some years ago, not sure I ever received an answer.

The QVMAG collections in Launceston have original NTFA voting slips for a few games in about 1927 (?), randomly kept examples of team sheets, player registration forms, and clearance papers, from 1960s/70s/80s, and the comp official minute books from about 1940 to about 1986.

Archive Tasmania in Hobart have an interesting range of records, think I've spotted good range of minute books etc for pre-WW2 clubs like Lefroy and Cananore.

Wonder how extensive the WAFL collection is ?
 
Stephen Rodgers advised on email that
"we've had a notification, from Essendon, that for the player William Harrison, 1909-11, the man we currently have in the records is wrong.
We're in the process of trying to get the correct details - it's a really messy, not straightforward one - and of course I'll pass on when we hopefully get the correct details."

ping WhiteHartLane23
 
Rodgers has sent more info about the 1909-1911 Essendon player William Harrison
Here's an extract of that:

"I think I mentioned William Harrison, Essendon 1909-11, last night.
The case arose, when the grandson of the player, Graham Jolly made contact with Gregor McCaskie of Essendon.
And Gregor of course got in touch with us.
The key element, initially, was an article on Page 6 of the Sporting Globe of April 30, 1949.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178159077
Admittedly there were minor inaccuracies (not surprising), in the article - but the main point, was that this in fact WAS the Essendon player, not the guy we had.

So obviously we now needed a new date of birth, and death.
The death wasn't a problem -
April 29, 1949 obviously.
But the birth is becoming one of those nightmarish scenarios."

So it seems they cant find his birth details in BDM registry.
Here's an edited extract of Rodgers original email to the grandson.

"Hi Graham,

It's great that Gregor passed on to us, your communication about your grandfather William Harrison.

We try and record things like, date of birth and death, of every former player!
Delving into this, it soon became apparent that, we had the wrong William Harrison, as the player, in our records.

This sometimes happens, when we're dealing with what can be a very common name.
The man we had as dying on 30/5/1964; if you look at his parents, this traces back to a William Harrison born on 14/12/1884.
This man's parents were Matthew Harrison, and Ellen May nee Mansfield.

But this wasn't the right William Harrison! - as you've shown us, by the Sporting Globe article of 1949.

Now we know, that the correct William Harrison died on 29/4/1949.
I then tried, to get details of this death, from the Victorian Death Records.
It seems to indicate that he died aged 65, and his parents appear to be recorded as:
William Charles Sandwill (or Sandwell) and Mary McDonald nee Smith.

I was then looking for, a Victorian Birth Record, matching these details, in around 1884 (ironically, also the year for the "wrong man") give or take a year.

But I unfortunately had no luck, finding such a record!

What I did discover, seemed to indicate that Mary McDonald Smith was born in 1857 at Dunolly.
She married Charles William Sandwell in 1878.
Children are recorded as Charles William, born at Northcote in 1887; Ethel May, born at Collingwood in 1882.
There are other children, as well - but, obviously, I was looking for a William, born to these parents, in about 1884 -
but couldn't seem to find one! I also, of course, tried to look under the surname Harrison, but again no luck!

To sum up, I've had no luck, to this stage, with a birth record - so it's great, to be in contact with you!

Also, of course, it would be interesting to know:

- why he doesn't appear to be in the Vic Birth Records. Of course, it's possible "I've missed something" - that it's recorded, somewhere, differently.

- what is the "link" between originally Sandwell, and later the Harrison, name?

And, specifically, in relation to William Harrison:

- what is the story with the name Brigham? Is it a nickname?

- do you know, please, what occupation(s) he had in his working life? We record that sort of thing, as well.

- we also record, if a player was a natural right foot, or left foot, kick. Fully understand!! - if you're unaware of this.

- as far as you're aware, did William have any other, direct or indirect relatives, who later played VFL/AFL?

- The Sporting Globe article, seemed to indicate that he coached Essendon for 2 years. We don't have this in any VFL/AFL records.
Could this have been referring to Essendon "A" in the VFA? - the Association side, that played concurrently with the VFL."


Here's what the grandson of Graham Jolly has written:

"My mother’s records :-

William Harrison father was William Harrison.
His mother was Elsie Bliss ( Upston ) Harrison.
William Harrison was born in 1883, I have no other dates.

In 1909 he married Amy Elizabeth Sandwell who was 25 years of age.
Her father was Charles William Sandwell. Mother Mary McDonald (Smith) Sandwell.

Their children were :-

William Charles Leslie Harrison.
Born 1909. Cert No. 21738.
Died 1984. Cert No. 12954.

Lorna Mary Harrison.
Born 1911.
Died 1918. Cert No. 2742.

Albert James Harrison.
Born 1914. Cert No. 34070.
Died 1990. July 22.

Shirley Evelyn Harrison ( Jolly ). My mother.
Born 28 October 1923.
Died 23 October 2013.

Adopted son.
Colin Harrison.
Born 1892.
Died 1914. Registered No. 3595.
My grand fathers history search started at Northcote Football Club.
My grand father lived at 25 Charles Street, Northcote.

---------------------

I believe his burial site is in the Fawkner Cemetery.

In 1905, William Harrison was presented a solid gold medal as a team player for Nothcote’s, I believe premiership ? I have that medal. It might be for being runners up ?

In 1906, William Harrison was presented a solid gold medal as a team player for Northcote for being a premiership winning player. Won on 8th September 1906. I have that medal.

On the 15th September 1906, William ( Billy ) Harrison played in first Semi-final for West Melbourne. VFA.

On the 28th September 1906, William ( Billy ) Harrison played in a winning grand final for West Melbourne. VFA. He was presented with a solid gold medal as a premiership player. I have that medal.

In 1907, William ( Billy ) Harrison played for West Melbourne. VFA. They were runners up, beaten in the grand final.

In 1908, West Melbourne and North Melbourne wanted to amalgamate and for that team to leave the VFA and join the VFL.
This was refused by the league leaving all players in limbo.

West Melbourne disbanded.
North Melbourne reformed.

In 1908, West Melbourne players ( not all ) played in mid week games.
I have found a little information about this. Harrison was one player.

In 1909, William ( Billy ) Harrison married Amy Elizabeth Sandwell.
Age 25.
I believe that same year he started playing for Essendon ( VFL ) at the age of 26.

In 1910, he played for Essendon ( VFL ). Age 27.

In 1911, he played one game for Essendon ( VFL ). Age 28. He played one game on 29th April 1911.

On the 18th May 1911, William Harrison was granted a permit to leave Essendon ( VFL ) and go play for Northcote.

My search has found on 3rd June 1911, William Harrison played for Northcote and broke his ankle ( Pott’s break ) playing against Preston.
He was taken to a private hospital.
Geelong Advertiser Tuesday 6 June 1911, page 4

My search has found an article The Herald, Friday 4th August 1911, page 2. Harrison who broke his ankle 3 June 1911 in a match against Preston. The paper was asking for donations at the Melbourne Ground.
Essendon ( L ) contributed £10.

Stephen, my search started in early 2018. My cousin Robert Harrison and myself travelled to the Fawkner Cemetery and after many hours of searching found the grave site of Amy Elizabeth Harrison and William Harrison. The grave site has no head stone of which we will provide later this year. The grave site is a double grave. That surprised us and confirmed William Harrison’s grave. My mother always said he was buried at the Fawkner Cemetery.

I have become a member of Trove and have been slowly searching and correcting digitising scanned details for all to read.
JollyG. or JollyGC will show where I have corrected scanned paper details."
 
This doesn't seem to have been brought up before, and does need looking into! The Australasian says (of the Geelong team for the 1909 Rd. 10 game against South Melbourne) "The visitors missed Hassett, who had been selected, and whose non-appearance was not accounted for. Palmer, who had not played before for the year, took Hassett's place at the last moment." Hassett is named in the official lineup while Palmer isn't.

The Herald does name Hassett (not Palmer) in the lineup, though he's not mentioned in the match report (neither is Palmer). It's possible they didn't know about the late switch. For the next week's game they say "Geelong were without Hassett and Rankin." They aren't meant to be in the Rd. 11 side. They name Palmer (but don't mention him as an 'in') - it was supposed to have been his first game since 1907.

The Geelong Advertiser backs up The Australasian's story, so I'd say it looks like the records have it wrong:
695776
 
35Daicos said:
This doesn't seem to have been brought up before, and does need looking into! The Australasian says (of the Geelong team for the 1909 Rd. 10 game against South Melbourne) "The visitors missed Hassett, who had been selected, and whose non-appearance was not accounted for. Palmer, who had not played before for the year, took Hassett's place at the last moment." Hassett is named in the official lineup while Palmer isn't.

The Herald does name Hassett (not Palmer) in the lineup, though he's not mentioned in the match report (neither is Palmer). It's possible they didn't know about the late switch. For the next week's game they say "Geelong were without Hassett and Rankin." They aren't meant to be in the Rd. 11 side. They name Palmer (but don't mention him as an 'in') - it was supposed to have been his first game since 1907.

The Geelong Advertiser backs up The Australasian's story, so I'd say it looks like the records have it wrong:
View attachment 695776
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Good find, annoying that another change to team lists needs to be made, but there you go [as McLeod used to say !]

Further evidence supporting your thoughts of Hassett out, Palmer in; found in the [South Melbourne] Record:
trove.nla.gov.au

FOOTBALL - SOUTH SCORE HEAVILY AGAINST GEELONG. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 10 Jul 1909

The attendance at this game on Saturday last was reminiscent of bygone days, when both teams were in the forefront of football. The Pivot ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
 
the croucher said:
Yes, I agree. Good find, annoying that another change to team lists needs to be made, but there you go [as McLeod used to say !]

Further evidence supporting your thoughts of Hassett out, Palmer in; found in the [South Melbourne] Record:
trove.nla.gov.au

FOOTBALL - SOUTH SCORE HEAVILY AGAINST GEELONG. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 10 Jul 1909

The attendance at this game on Saturday last was reminiscent of bygone days, when both teams were in the forefront of football. The Pivot ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
Click to expand...

One for WhiteHartLane23 to place on the spreadsheet perhaps Daics, Croucher.
(thought I see he's been pretty much inactive on BF for this month, so he may be away/work commitments/other priorities etc)
 
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