Autopsy Round 11, 2019: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[Pardon me]

Coff's gotta stay in, he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people are saying. We were completely overrun, hard for individual to look good in those circumstances.

Kent's been eh, but long and young have been more so, can't drop them all..

As much as I'd like to see newnes have a rest, we're an extremely young side and we really need the win, so the coaches won't do it... at least not until hanners is available.

out - young, long, joyce, phillips
in - clark, mckenzie, white, acres

Hope hind gets a look in soon too..

I really like this MG, and the week after potentially Hanners and Carlisle also?
Coffield looked lost last week but you can't blame him the way our defensive pressure was nil and Port opened us up on the fast break. He needs games to develop.
Joyce Young* has been MIA for 3 weeks now and probably needs time in the 2's to find form.
I hate the bye rounds but at least we have the MND fundraiser on Queen's Birthday and the cricket Sunday night. Maybe game 4 in the NBA too...? I'll have to check that. Loch food and wine festival this week also...
All in all - I'm not reading too much into last weeks performance, few tweaks and a couple more goals per game and we'll start looking a completely different side. Not convinced we'll make finals, did a quick ladder predictor and had us finishing on 11 wins with the top 8 needing 13.
Can't sack Richo based on an 11 win season and the injuries we've had, reckon it's 50/50 either an amicable split or extension.

*Edit

 

[BrutThough]

Agree that the selection of Joyce over Brown for GWS was baffling to say the least!
But i must say i don't really see Carlisle as our full back! Not this year or any year to be honest. For all of Jake's strengths, having him defend on the last line
Doesn't suit him! He's a bit too loose, plus trying to make him that accountable in a defence first role is wasting his talent in my opinion!

He's at his best as an attacking, intercept centre half back! With the odd run forward!
Does beggar the question though who our future Full back would be and Joyce is still a fair way off for all of his improvement!
Kernel's idea is not without merit though, the only way we can get him up to speed is to play him as much as possible to fastrack his development!
Difficult decision though whilst we are still contending for finals for a few weeks anyway, unless the bottom drops out and we are no chance!
The other options don't really look up to it. Austin way too loose from what we have seen so far, a bridge too far to expect Clavarino to be able to do it
In the next couple of years anyway.....Maybe Wilkie, he has exceeded our wildest expectations already and is versatile enough to be seen as a possible option!
Unless they are still planning on leaving Battle in defence to play Jake forward, which could work in short bursts, though for mine when everyone's fit
He goes forward as we are clearly lacking there and with his improvement, i'm excited to see how he goes doing what we drafted him for!

But then there's Winx who we no doubt see as our focal point! So to summarise i've rambled so much shite i have now painted myself into a corner!!
For everyone's sanity i will stop now, plus i've given myself a headache!
Back to the Dungeon for me! Apologies all!

I agree Carlisle plays his best when he can roam around the defensive 50. But with us playing much more of a system defence, I think being able to rotate our defenders in different positions becomes a lot easier and we should become less reliant on having that one, big lock down defender. Carlisle, Marsh and Wikie dont seem too bad as a back three - maybe a tad short though. And that's with the idea of Battle plating forward alongside King and Membrey. Not sure what we do with Bruce in this scenario because he has done some good things this year.

And Brown is one of the few big, one on one defenders left going around since they are a bit of a dying breed. I think since we have him and he is really good at what he does, we can accomodate his type into our system because he is currently our best option but I don't think we need to go and seek someone in the same mould to replace him.

I dont like the idea of just giving games to players like Joyce just to see how they go when the season is still alive and when the guy playing his position is still doing a good job. He is continues to go a great job at VFL and Brown starts is struggling, then he should play in front of him, but we don't need to be gifting him games for no apparent reason.

 

[MrFoster]

Thanks for this.

Question for you, would you recommend going next year for others, like me, that are contemplating it? I was really close to pulling the trigger but had a late family commitment that stopped me (obviously I'm glad I didn't now...).

Any tips I should know about? Is it just a matter of booking a ticket to Shanghai and rocking up and getting a ticket at the ground or are there things I should know about in advance?

Would really appreciate a rundown if you have time as it will influence whether or not I go next year (and I'm sure there are others in the same boat as me that would like to know as well).

It’s relatively straight forward.

1. buy match ticket - from the Shanghai AFL official site AUD $20 for tickets in the grand stand.. You can pick it up on the day at the ground.. my seat is in row B, right behind marque section and next to the boundary line.. great view


2. buy plane ticket to Shanghai.. China Eastern should have direct flight from Melbourne to Shanghai

3. book hotel.. I stayed at Shanghai Equatorial Hotel, a 4 star hotel right in the middle of Shanghai best location Jing An district, with good amenities at AUD $150 a night.. you can book on booking.com website

4. Getting to the ground.. from Equatorial hotel it takes around 35 minutes by metro.. or 25 min by taxi.. even though metro is pretty easy to navigate, probably take taxi if it’s the first time in SH..

5. Book tour or travel to other parts of China.. you can easily take the high speed rail and head over to other parts of China..

6. Food. the Jing An district (Equatorial hotel is there) has lots of expats so it caters for western tastes, has good selection of restaurants and bars..

7. Shopping. I bumped into Jack Sinclair and Dean Kent in the Kerry Shopping Centre (also in Jing An district).. but this is a modern shopping centre, you can go to the flee markets to get bargains on fake designers if that’s your thing.

Let me know if you have any questions..

Unfortunately the stadium is half empty, so not much of an atmosphere and I don’t see it improving much.. local ticket scalpers bought a lot of the tickets and resell them outside the ground/online..

 

[Mowman]

Triple M saying lots of talk about how unorganised the club was for the trip and the players didn’t want to be there and complained the whole time

 

[MrFoster]

Triple M saying lots of talk about how unorganised the club was for the trip and the players didn’t want to be there and complained the whole time

Not too surprised to be honest.. playing in China is completely different to playing in Tasmania or New Zealand.. different time zone, food, culture, air quality, temperature. Think Port got there earlier .. and it was really hot on the day.. the club will be much better prepared next year I hope.

 

[pebblesofsand]

No idea but on your other part I gather the pies win clearances every week as do Melbourne as both have strong midfields and obviously they score more from those clearances. Someone better tell Melbourne. And by the way did you see our clearance numbers against port with lycett and Ryder rucking against Marshall. Hit outs are the most overrated stat in footy. Even hit outs to advantage are overrated unless we can at least see hit outs to disadvantage.

Just out of interest the question still stands. Longer who will get more hit outs or Marshall who will get more of the ball

Longer has been injured and has been playing poorly so I reckon Marshall is the best bet ATM - whoever I try not to let one factor distract me from the totality of a situation.

Remember - when Bruce rucks our single marking forward is 188 cm - good luck with that given the quality of our forward entries.

Just out of interest if we do get Gawn should we stick with Bruce as second ruck and trade Marshall or should we just play Marshall at Sandy as a reserve?

 

[MrFoster]

Longer has been injured and has been playing poorly so I reckon Marshall is the best bet ATM - whoever I try not to let one factor distract me from the totality of a situation.

Remember - when Bruce rucks our single marking forward is 188 cm - good luck with that given the quality of our forward entries.

Just out of interest if we do get Gawn should we stick with Bruce as second ruck and trade Marshall or should we just play Marshall at Sandy as a reserve?

It’s definitely quality of clearance that’s more critical.. numerous of times against pies and Port, opposition mids won the ball easily from their ruckman’s tap and easily fed to a free player outside, streaming forward kicking to a player inside 50 on the lead.. whereas when we win the ball, it’s a scramble and rushed side way kick, or simply a long bomb.. chalk and cheese. Possesions, hit outs, inside 50, and scoring shots are not completely meaningless but it really is the quality of each activity that’s a lot more importantly.. it explains that we look close to top sides based on stats, but in reality and general play, we’re quite far off.

 

[plugger66]

Longer has been injured and has been playing poorly so I reckon Marshall is the best bet ATM - whoever I try not to let one factor distract me from the totality of a situation.

Remember - when Bruce rucks our single marking forward is 188 cm - good luck with that given the quality of our forward entries.

Just out of interest if we do get Gawn should we stick with Bruce as second ruck and trade Marshall or should we just play Marshall at Sandy as a reserve?

I doubt we would chase Gawn because of Marshall. Certainly not unless they thought Marshall was a better Forward then either Bruce or Membery. And yes I understand what happens when Bruce rucks. That is for 20 minutes a game. I look at other 100 minutes and see how far Marshall is ahead of any other option.

Anyway Gawn wont leave to come to us. Not a hope. We aren't going to waste our money on a ruck who is better than ours but not by a huge margin and ours has much more improvement in him than big Maxy.

 

[kernelT]

And Brown is one of the few big, one on one defenders left going around since they are a bit of a dying breed. I think since we have him and he is really good at what he does, we can accomodate his type into our system because he is currently our best option but I don't think we need to go and seek someone in the same mould to replace him.

I definitely don't want to replace Brown with another player who offers no drive and doesn't try to mark or kick the ball.

There's a reason players like this are a dying breed, and why collingwood were more than happy to see him leave… the game has evolved and carrying these players just puts extra pressure on the few that are given the task of counter attack.

We need to evolve with the game and look for the players who can defend and offer genuine counter attack and take marks deep in defence instead of spoiling the ball for crumbers to take advantage of.

We're set-up for the dark ages with big bad Brown dog huffing around & opposition teams are exploiting us by pushing small, fast players deep.

 

[plugger66]

It’s definitely quality of clearance that’s more critical.. numerous of times against pies and Port, opposition mids won the ball easily from their ruckman’s tap and easily fed to a free player outside, streaming forward kicking to a player inside 50 on the lead.. whereas when we win the ball, it’s a scramble and rushed side way kick, or simply a long bomb.. chalk and cheese. Possesions, hit outs, inside 50, and scoring shots are not completely meaningless but it really is the quality of each activity that’s a lot more importantly.. it explains that we look close to top sides based on stats, but in reality and general play, we’re quite far off.

Yes the problem is the pace of the midfield not the quality of the taps. Working on that theory the pies would never lose a game because they have nearly the best midfield and the best ruck. Unfortunately there is an opposition. Hit iuts means jack unless you now what to have a stat called quality hit outs.

 

[plugger66]

I definitely don't want to replace Brown with another player who offers no drive and doesn't try to mark or kick the ball.

There's a reason players like this are a dying breed, and why collingwood were more than happy to see him leave… the game has evolved and carrying these players just puts extra pressure on the few that are given the task of counter attack.

We need to evolve with the game and look for the players who can defend and offer genuine counter attack and take marks deep in defence instead of spoiling the ball for crumbers to take advantage of.

We're set-up for the dark ages with big bad Brown dog huffing around & opposition teams are exploiting us by pushing small, fast players deep.

How many first 6 backs are missing or have missed chunks. Surely you don't want to be to attacking with the current group. I do agree Browns day are numbered though. He should only play when there is someone to play on as soon as we get a couple of regulars back.

 

[Saintbloke]

I definitely don't want to replace Brown with another player who offers no drive and doesn't try to mark or kick the ball.

There's a reason players like this are a dying breed, and why collingwood were more than happy to see him leave… the game has evolved and carrying these players just puts extra pressure on the few that are given the task of counter attack.

We need to evolve with the game and look for the players who can defend and offer genuine counter attack and take marks deep in defence instead of spoiling the ball for crumbers to take advantage of.

We're set-up for the dark ages with big bad Brown dog huffing around & opposition teams are exploiting us by pushing small, fast players deep.

Sounds like Richo's dream player

 

[kernelT]

How many first 6 backs are missing or have missed chunks. Surely you don't want to be to attacking with the current group. I do agree Browns day are numbered though. He should only play when there is someone to play on as soon as we get a couple of regulars back.

I reckon he has a handful of genuine match-ups in the comp, but has been picked every week available for 3 years straight, bar maybe once this year.

 

[BrutThough]

I definitely don't want to replace Brown with another player who offers no drive and doesn't try to mark or kick the ball.

There's a reason players like this are a dying breed, and why collingwood were more than happy to see him leave… the game has evolved and carrying these players just puts extra pressure on the few that are given the task of counter attack.

We need to evolve with the game and look for the players who can defend and offer genuine counter attack and take marks deep in defence instead of spoiling the ball for crumbers to take advantage of.

We're set-up for the dark ages with big bad Brown dog huffing around & opposition teams are exploiting us by pushing small, fast players deep.

We haven't been "carrying" Brown in the back 6. He has been playing very well this season and been pretty important to our set up.

What often gets overlooked with Brown when he spoils is he doesn't just spoil to space but he has been fantastic this year is directing the ball when he spoils directly to another defender so we gain possession of the ball and can move on from the contest quickly. So his choice to spoil isn't actually hurting us on the scoreboard.

 

[plugger66]

I reckon he has a handful of genuine match-ups in the comp, but has been picked every week available for 3 years straight, bar maybe once this year.

Obviously rated by the club and probably a couple of years ago his type still had a place. Doubt they do now but injuries mean he still has a place. Like savage newnes and dunstan I don’t think we can become a good whilst they are playing. Harsh of savage as he has been good this year. I just don’t rate his kicking.

 

[gringo2011]

Obviously rated by the club and probably a couple of years ago his type still had a place. Doubt they do now but injuries mean he still has a place. Like savage newnes and dunstan I don’t think we can become a good whilst they are playing. Harsh of savage as he has been good this year. I just don’t rate his kicking.

Savage has been in our top 5 or so players this year and his kicking has been good mostly. That is crazy to suggest because you don't like his kicking which used to be no good he can't play in a premiership. Dunny has had a few games where he's more than earned his keep, he could just be a late bloomer and a new coach might rate grunt over spread. Newnes best is excellent, probably suffers from not really owning a spot but is a leader. Even the best teams have soldiers. I reckon he's good for that at least.

We won't win a premiership until we bring in or develop some elite players or at least very high level.

 

[plugger66]

Savage has been in our top 5 or so players this year and his kicking has been good mostly. That is crazy to suggest because you don't like his kicking which used to be no good he can't play in a premiership. Dunny has had a few games where he's more than earned his keep, he could just be a late bloomer and a new coach might rate grunt over spread. Newnes best is excellent, probably suffers from not really owning a spot but is a leader. Even the best teams have soldiers. I reckon he's good for that at least.

We won't win a premiership until we bring in or develop some elite players or at least very high level.

We will still have soldiers if they go. Many actually. Newnes best is not excellent. It’s good. Sounds like they must be nearly our best players. I doubt savage is in the top 10 in the b and f. His last few games have been very ordinary. Sorry I stand by what I said. None of them look like players who would be in a top 4 side. Brown wouldn’t be either. There are others who are foot soldiers but as you say you always have a few in very good sides.

 

[kernelT]

Not many players are genuinely safe in their positions at the moment long term on current form.

Membrey, Gresham, Ross, Carlisle, Wilkie, Steele, Marshall, Battle, Webster, Billings…

A lot of forward spots up for grabs by the looks.

Lonie* too if he can continue for a season

 

[gringo2011]

We will still have soldiers if they go. Many actually. Newnes best is not excellent. It’s good. Sounds like they must be nearly our best players. I doubt savage is in the top 10 in the b and f. His last few games have been very ordinary. Sorry I stand by what I said. None of them look like players who would be in a top 4 side. Brown wouldn’t be either. There are others who are foot soldiers but as you say you always have a few in very good sides.

To me you've selected a heap of guys that are the least of our problems. Sinclair is not going anywhere unless he can get more possession, we have a heap of young talent that is not yet best 22 and a lot of old guys that are not really likely to be around for the good times.

 

[plugger66]

To me you've selected a heap of guys that are the least of our problems. Sinclair is not going anywhere unless he can get more possession, we have a heap of young talent that is not yet best 22 and a lot of old guys that are not really likely to be around for the good times.

Agree on Sinclair but I’m hoping he has more upside. Certainly has more skills than the others. Said I left out a few foot soldiers.

Also why will our older guys not be around. Most likely win around 9 games this year with what nearly everyone says is a crap coach. Surely with a change of coach we will be challenging next year. By the way I don’t believe that for a second.

 

[BrutThough]

Triple M saying lots of talk about how unorganised the club was for the trip and the players didn’t want to be there and complained the whole time

In what ways did they say we were disorganised?

Lauren Wood did a great article on Saturday about the preparation the club did with regards to food, accomodation, schedule for the players on the plane, even JB and Mac doing a "dry run" of the trip in November. There was obviously a lot of things we didn't anticipate since it was our first trip compared to Port have already learnt these things in their two previous trips. We will be better next year.

 

[kernelT]

We haven't been "carrying" Brown in the back 6. He has been playing very well this season and been pretty important to our set up.

What often gets overlooked with Brown when he spoils is he doesn't just spoil to space but he has been fantastic this year is directing the ball when he spoils directly to another defender so we gain possession of the ball and can move on from the contest quickly. So his choice to spoil isn't actually hurting us on the scoreboard.

I would like to see the stats on goals kicked after a Brown spoil this year… but I do take your point on board, he's not a dumb footballer, just a limited one who works to his strengths.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Yes the problem is the pace of the midfield not the quality of the taps. Working on that theory the pies would never lose a game because they have nearly the best midfield and the best ruck. Unfortunately there is an opposition. Hit iuts means jack unless you now what to have a stat called quality hit outs.

"Hit outs means jack unless you now what to have a stat called quality hit outs."

Gee - that's unfortunate because that's exactly what we are talking about - the quality of the hitouts.

WRT to the quality of hitouts alone Gawn/Grundy are very good. Longer on his day is better than average. Marshall is average.

We are playing Marshall because he is a better option than an out of form Longer because of his much better around the ground outputs.

If Longer regained his 2017 standards (around 10 possessions 40 HO's per game) then you'd have to have rocks in your head if you failed consider whether the cumulative outputs of an in form Longer playing first ruck and an in form Marshall as a tall forward/second ruck option are greater than the current outputs (and the imbalances created) by using Marshall/Bruce or Marshall/Acres.

And given the way we actually can win clearances despite having a average tap wise ruckman and the way we actually do go about entering the i50, you don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out it might be an option worth exploring.

But its a completely moot point ATM given Longers current "form".

But hey once we get Gawn and Marshall together - look out!!!!

 

[plugger66]

"Hit outs means jack unless you now what to have a stat called quality hit outs."

Gee - that's unfortunate because that's exactly what we are talking about - the quality of the hitouts.

WRT to the quality of hitouts alone Gawn/Grundy are very good. Longer on his day is better than average. Marshall is average.

We are playing Marshall because he is a better option than an out of form Longer because of his much better around the ground outputs.

If Longer regained his 2017 standards (around 10 possessions 40 HO's per game) then you'd have to have rocks in your head if you failed consider whether the cumulative outputs of an in form Longer playing first ruck and an in form Marshall as a tall forward/second ruck option are greater than the current outputs (and the imbalances created) by using Marshall/Bruce or Marshall/Acres.

And given the way we actually can win clearances despite having a average tap wise ruckman and the way we actually do go about entering the i50, you don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out it might be an option worth exploring.

But its a completely moot point ATM given Longers current "form".

But hey once we get Gawn and Marshall together - look out!!!!

And once again we won’t get Gawn. And if billy put his best 22 games into one season I’d still take Marshall because hit outs are the most overrated stat in footy and billy is a liability after that overrated stat.

As for quality hit outs. Where is that stat? Surely you don’t think every hit out to advantage is quality and if these other ruckman have such quality hit outs and a great midfield why isn’t is showing on the scoreboard. I reckon if we had Marshall rucking and the pies midfield we would be going nearly as well as the pies. Obviously an opinion that means jack because we haven’t got their mids.

 

[pebblesofsand]

And once again we won’t get Gawn. And if billy put his best 22 games into one season I’d still take Marshall because hit outs are the most overrated stat in footy and billy is a liability after that overrated stat.

As for quality hit outs. Where is that stat? Surely you don’t think every hit out to advantage is quality and if these other ruckman have such quality hit outs and a great midfield why isn’t is showing on the scoreboard. I reckon if we had Marshall rucking and the pies midfield we would be going nearly as well as the pies. Obviously an opinion that means jack because we haven’t got their mids.

Of course the quality of the hitouts counts - its absurd to suggest they don't.

About as absurd as saying that because we had more scoring shots than Freo we should have got the 4 points. Quality counts.

I think you might have jet lag!!!!