Can AFL make a footprint in NZ?

[RedV3x]

the afl will never make it in a big way outside australia.

It really depends on your definition of 'big way'.
If your criteria is big numbers of people playing Australian Football around the world then Australian Football is already successfull.
Unfortunately too many Australians aren't impressed untill some other country defeats an AFL side.
IMO the problem is the AFL ignore evrything under the AFL.
There has been great success in levels under the the AFL but that doesn't get the media treatment.
There are many Papuans. New Zealanders, Americans, Irish, Canadians, French, Croations, South Africans and more
that have come to Australia and playing Australian Football at different levels.

 

[Over The Post]

I was peripherally involved in a couple of International Cups and was surprised by the number of players who lived in Victoria and played for local clubs (at different levels). But did they come to Australia to play AFL, or are they here for other reasons and found AFL a good sport to participate in? Wouldn't that be a bit like me going to the US for a few months and joining a local baseball team to meet people, maintain fitness and give me something to do on the weekend?

You'll be waiting a long time for any international side to beat an AFL team, as I said before, "it'll be flattened by first-tier suburban sides let alone VFL or AFL." That's not being unimpressed, its just the way things are.

"IMO the problem is the AFL ignore evrything under the AFL."

Totally agree, though they have their moments when they toss a bone to those at their feet.

 

[TWLS]

Another older article from last year discussing the background to re-developing Western Springs in Auckland to a facility for Cricket and Footy.
The site was used as a Speedway which was due to close in March of this year.

To go back down memory Lane Gil Mc did say in a wide ranging speech in mid 2016 at the Canberra Press Club that the AFL would re-examine that area when and if a new facility was built. So here we are 3 years later and not much progress.
It appears that the Saints are still interested in the project.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/saints-auckland-time-frame-up-in-the-air-20180304-p4z2rj.html

 

[R Chee Manning]

The biggest challenge for footy in Aotearoa is the fact that it is Australian (and all of the negative connotations that implies).

Kiwis also struggle when it comes to the 'rules' and then sadly even when they do learn the rules, the inconsistent application of those rules and seemingly numerous grey areas (non-footy people in NSW and QLD experience the same) leaves them confused and bewildered.

But, most Kiwis are sports fans... and as such certainly respect the athleticism and skills of our players.

As for a footprint in Aotearoa?

Yes there is a way! And it has nothing to do with playing games over there.

1. Target talented teenagers (all teenagers, not just Pasifika and Maori) - particularly those who maybe missing out on representative rugby opportunities
2. Offer scholarship/development places with Australian academies.
3. Don't promote it broadly. Just let it organically grow as 'Kiwis smashing Aussies at their own sport and these are the guys and gals to watch'...

 

[RedV3x]

The biggest challenge for footy in Aotearoa is the fact that it is Australian..

Doesn't AFL stand for Aotearoa Football League?

I hear you you bro. Kiwis don't like NRL beause it's Australian.

 

[Over The Post]

Sigh. I already explained the chip on the shoulder and how NZ as a whole couldn't give a toss about Australian and English league until a unique set of circumstances happened in late 80s / early 90s. I'll type slower next time.

 

[RedV3x]

Sigh. I already explained..

WTFRU ?

My experience in New Zealand is that people play Australian Football because they simply enjoy it.
For whatever reason people are taking up Australian Football and those are the type of people that AFLNZ is aiming at.
It worked in Qld and N.S.W.
Some of my Kiwi friends now attend AFL and WAFL matches. They seem to appreciate sport for what it is.

 

[Over The Post]

If you make sarcastic remarks like "Kiwis don't like NRL beause it's Australian," expect a tailored response.

"Some of my Kiwi friends now attend AFL and WAFL matches. They seem to appreciate sport for what it is. "

The discussion was about resistance to the take-up of AFL *in* New Zealand. Nothing about Kiwis wandering off to see the footy on Saturday while over here.

 

[R Chee Manning]

NZ has always had a league presence. Considered lower class, a niche sport played by thugs who couldn't get a gig in union. Union was by far the dominant sport until the late 80s / early 90s when it was noticed back home that Kiwis were having an impact on the league scene in Australia.

It got a massive boost when Graham Lowe started coaching Manly and populated it with marquee Kiwis. It also coincided with the introduction of satellite TV into NZ - instead of three FTA channels we could now get two sports channels on Sky. Bingo, we were getting full coverage of live games from Sydney during the day and the English league overnight. Everyone was on the Manly bandwagon, Mt Smart Stadium was redeveloped, we had a home worthy of a local team and the Warriors club was created.

So mid-late 90s the provinces were still nearly 100% union but in the main cities an awful lot of people followed both codes, for instance I was Wellington / Norths (RIP) / Wigan.

"NRL did, and NRL is Australian, and RU supporters traditionally hate RL. "

Absolutely. But league in NZ had the perfect storm: Locals making a name for themselves overseas; a successful side being coached by a Kiwi; and new technology enabling not just two union games per weekend on fuzzy FTA TV, but multiple games live on crystal clear channels; and the time difference allowing you to watch a local provincial game or Ranfurly Shield challenge then switch over to see the match of the round in Sydney.

AFL isn't going to have all those ducks lined up in a row. League was just in the right place at the right time.

I think you're forgetting the most significant factor as to why rugby league became popular in the mid 80s to mid 90s in Aotearoa.

At that stage rugby (no one calls it 'union')... rugby had become incredibly boring. It was a kicking game and scores of 12-9 were considered good games and even better if the match even produced a try.

It was only with the introduction of running rugby, rule changes and the Super 12 (a comp that once averaged seven tries per game) that people came flocking back to rugby.

If rugby ever gets boring again... then Kiwis will once again be looking for something more exciting... just like they did a few decades ago.

 

[R Chee Manning]

Ignorant.

In my travelled experience there is no evidence of the name Australian Football holding the game back - in fact the contrary is true.

It's that supercilious attitude that Kiwis can't stand from Australians.

Watching Prime's excellent documentary produced this year on the Underarm incident was proof of this deluded air of superiority that Australians still seem to have. Greg Chappell (like many other Australians) still looks down his nose at us...

This whole jingoistic and hokey idea that Australians are just the greatest loveable larrikins adored the world over is just pure fantasy.

Like tomatoes at a Kiwi supermarket... the term 'Australian' is considered of lesser quality.

 

[Over The Post]

At that stage rugby (no one calls it 'union')... rugby had become incredibly boring. It was a kicking game and scores of 12-9 were considered good games and even better if the match even produced a try.

God you're right, I'd forgotten how dire it was. I remember going to an Auckland - North Harbour local derby with about 7 then-current All Blacks and over 24 minutes of playing time was spent waiting for penalties to be kicked. Probably less "forgotten" and more "my mind blocked that painful episode."

 

[TWLS]

This article talks about a New Zealand Woman player who may possibly get drafted into the AFLW.
We noted that she did get on to the best player list in one of matches in QLD, and if drafted AFLNZ could promote her as showing what is possible to get involved in a Professional Womens Sport in Australia, and also do some promotion in those NZ High Schools where our game has a presence.
However our game is not her sole interest as is common today she excels at other sports.

http://aflnz.co.nz/blog/2019/06/19/afl-credentials-to-be-tested/

 

[RedV3x]

Women's Australian Football is really outperforming men in the area of attracting grassroots players.
The N.Z. Kahu has been a good outfit for some time now and was close to being competitive early on
but the great upsurge in women's football in Australia has widened the gap recently.
The AFLW is the world's best attended women's football league in terms of average attendances
and attracts players from other high profile sports and from overseas.
It's a pity that they (the AFL) didn't promote the world's input more.

 

[juss]

The challenge is it coincides with rugby seasons, so its never going to be more than a third choice sport.

 

[RedV3x]

The challenge.

What challenge?

it coincides with rugby seasons.

What does - the AFLNZ or AFL or what exactly?

its never going to be more than a third choice sport.

Australian Football has done very well in growing and developlng Australian Football competitions and interest in many 'foreign' territories.
IMO, New Zealand is one of the least 'hostile' regions open to Australian football. Nothing could be more hostile than Sydney in the 1980s to Australian Football and look how Sydney has developed - two AFL teams and a multitude of Australian Football competitions.

 

[juss]

What challenge?



What does - the AFLNZ or AFL or what exactly?



Australian Football has done very well in growing and developlng Australian Football competitions and interest in many 'foreign' territories.
IMO, New Zealand is one of the least 'hostile' regions open to Australian football. Nothing could be more hostile than Sydney in the 1980s to Australian Football and look how Sydney has developed - two AFL teams and a multitude of Australian Football competitions.

There's a difference between just "having a team" which the AFL could probably setup and maintain in NZ quite comfortably if they were prepared to pay, and having a genuine club that the fans and locals including media genuinely embrace and support.

I think it would be genuinely hard to generate the latter in the Rugby dominant market.

Have you ever mentioned the Melbourne Rebels in Victoria? We "have a club" in RU but no one gives a damn about it, no one knows when they play, who they are playing, players would go unrecognised, no media attention and virtually non-existent in the off season, where they are on the ladder, etc.

For the record, I have no doubt that one day the AFL will have a NZ team. But I'm not sure it's wise to do that yet and I reckon 20-50 years is more the timeframe.

 

[Gigantor]

The rebels is a good analogy, in fact, an NZ AFL team would probably start further behind the 8 ball than the Rebels did.

 

[Over The Post]

OK I will fess up, this is the first I have heard of the Rebels. I thought we just had the Storm.

 

[Cold Sober]

Why bother.

 

[RedV3x]

There's a difference between just "having a team" which the AFL could probably setup and maintain in NZ quite comfortably if they were prepared to pay, and having a genuine club that the fans and locals including media genuinely embrace and support.

Yes. The AFL have learned from the experiences of five expansions teams and have adaapted the template.
1. The Bears showed that you cannot go in half-hearted.
2. The Swans showed that you need grassroots for long-livity.
3. The Suns and the Lions showed that onfield success is a large component.
4. The Giants showed that with the right approach nothing is impossible in a very hostile environment.

The AFL have the team, they have the school programs, they have the youth programs, N.Z. has an elite league,
AFL is on Television and N.Z. wants AFL at a city level.
AFL in N.Z. fifty years from now starts with today and there is no reason not to continue because we're already started.

 

[juss]

Yes. The AFL have learned from the experiences of five expansions teams and have adaapted the template.
1. The Bears showed that you cannot go in half-hearted.
2. The Swans showed that you need grassroots for long-livity.
3. The Suns and the Lions showed that onfield success is a large component.
4. The Giants showed that with the right approach nothing is impossible in a very hostile environment.

The AFL have the team, they have the school programs, they have the youth programs, N.Z. has an elite league,
AFL is on Television and N.Z. wants AFL at a city level.
AFL in N.Z. fifty years from now starts with today and there is no reason not to continue because we're already started.

"Having" a club is not the concern, the AFL could afford to do it.

Having a meaningful club that matters and is relevent in the sporting landscape is the challenge.

There are clubs struggling to do that in AUS, let alone NZ at this point.

 

[RedV3x]

"Having" a club is not the concern, the AFL could afford to do it.

Really ?

Having a meaningful club that matters and is relevent in the sporting landscape is the challenge.

So what club is not meaningful? What point are you trying tp make?

There are clubs struggling to do that in AUS, let alone NZ at this point.

There are always struggling clubs. That is the nature of successive premierships - the strong get stronger and the weak get weaker.
Hawthorn was going to merge with Melbourne but have returned to regain powerhouse status.
South Melbourne successfully became Sydney.
Fitzroy successfully became Brisbane.

The biggest argument a.t.m. for a struggling club is relocation or at least partial exposure.
A struggling club could largely benefit from N.Z. and it would mutually beneficial to both entities.

 

[juss]

So what club is not meaningful?

A meaningful club is one that has genuine community and social support, it's engaging, the people/media genuinely are invested in the club and it's fortunes, they are followers of the club rather than just token supporters.

I'm not sure if you are based in Melbourne but I keep using the Melbourne Rebels as an example of just "having a club" vs a Collingwood or Richmond (and others) where the people are genuinely engaged with the club and sport.

No one gives a damn about the Rebels here, people in Melbourne struggle to recognise the players in the street, struggle to name a player, if you asked the score on a random Saturday afternoon many wouldn't even know the team existed or who they are playing, where they are on the ladder, what colours they wear and the media give them nothing more than token attention etc.

Just because a sport team is there doesn't mean people care. It's very obvious when you see it happen.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Women's Australian Football is really outperforming men in the area of attracting grassroots players.
The N.Z. Kahu has been a good outfit for some time now and was close to being competitive early on
but the great upsurge in women's football in Australia has widened the gap recently.
The AFLW is the world's best attended women's football league in terms of average attendances
and attracts players from other high profile sports and from overseas.
It's a pity that they (the AFL) didn't promote the world's input more.

Link to the AFLW is the worlds best attended women's football league? and please not a link from the AFL site.
Lets not forget that its free to into these games.

 

[RedV3x]

Link to the AFLW is the worlds best attended women's football league? and please not a link from the AFL site.

List of attendance figures at domestic professional sports leagues - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Link indeed shows that the AFLW is the worlds best attended women's football league.
Let's not forget that the AFL is the worlds fourth best attended men's football league.
Australian Football must have something going for it to generate so much patronidge.