Autopsy Round 15, 2019: St.Kilda v Richmond

[triggering bro]

Bruce is lightyears ahead of where McCartin has ever been however the quicker we replace Bruce with King the better. We need to replace blokes like Bruce if we are to improve. He’s a very average forward & would struggle to hold his spot in most teams IMO. But lazy he is not. He works all day but lacks skills & has the agility of the tin man.

 

[cooperrules]

We played some good footy in the first half. It was good to see. Best i've seen Clark play by a big margin.

Having said that, the second half didn't surprise me at all.

Seb Ross can't kick. He needs to go. A few years ago when people were talking him up, he was a rubbish kick then too. Hi skills aren't afl standard.

Hanners ball use was average to say the least. I agree let's see how he goes with another week under his belt. Let's also afford Jake that bit of slack.

People here don't seem to rate Ben Long but i think he can be a decent player. I'd like to see us stick with him for a bit instead of dropping him all the time. Leave Newnes out and drop Ross. It's about the future.

I hope they stay the course with the kids i enjoyed watching them play. New coach a refreshed midfield we could start getting somewhere. Ross will get us a first rounder for sure. Serong flanders b king and were on our way.

 

[Saint Watto]

now i might be alone here (i dont think i am) but i think a performance like that on the back of the woeful performance the week before sets off alarm bells more than if we got flogged yesterday ... if we got flogged yesterday i could put it down to we dont have the players to get the job

I can assure you st_trav.....your not alone with those thoughts.

 

[VDS66]

So I'm a little confused. Can people enlighten me as to what we should actually do when we win possession at a stoppage on the back end of the centre square and the well drilled opposition flood back to defend space.

This is a serious question - what do people favour?

Should we

A - Long bomb to a contest in the forward line where we are outnumbered? (known as Richo's Only Plan)

B - chip sideways in the hope of drawing the opposition out of position so the entry can be to a one on one? (curiously also known as Richo's Only Plan)

C - try for the impossible 45% degree kick, turn it over in the centre square and get burnt on the rebound? (formerly known as Richo's Only plan)

I think we actually began to see the development of a viable alternative yesterday with players like Clark, Coffield Battle, Wilkie & Paton starting in the back half.

Players who can make Option C and are capable of being a goal scoring offensive option.

Yeah good luck with that one...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

With the historic dropping of Newnes and the inclusion of Coff n Clark in revised rolls, are we seeing the turning of a new page within the club, or is it only injury based??

You have to say that Clark has done his best effort to make that role his.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

so some things to note from my perspective...
there are media who are saying the first 3 qtrs was enough to show Richo is making improvments to keep his job .. now i might be alone here (i dont think i am) but i think a performance like that on the back of the woeful performance the week before sets off alarm bells more than if we got flogged yesterday ... if we got flogged yesterday i could put it down to we dont have the players to get the job done, that situation gives me the feeling that Richo really isnt to blame because you can only work with what you have .. BUT the fact that we could play a strong brand of footy against a good opponent after such a terrible game the last week makes me think the issue is getting the players up and about to get the job done and that lands directly on the coach .. i do like richo but if the team are showing they can play to that high level for periods but for some reason dont then we need to understand why this is the case...

point two, the talk of the interim coaches being brilliant - i will give you Shaw has got North playing outside of themselves and i guess that shows that Scott's message was not getting through for whatever reason .. but for Carlton as great as that win was for them i think rather than saying it was the coaching change i think it was more the Dockers not mentally being in that game ... my thoughts is Freo thought they just needed to show up and they would win, carlton losing Cripps just fueled that , i reckon some of the Freo guys were looking ahead to the Derby next week and even against the bottom side in the comp you cant be focused on the next game while in the current game ... Ross would be livid... having been around a ross lyon spray before i would not have wanted to be a freo player last night ...

in conclusion i think the fact the interim coaches with the fresh message is lifting the respective teams is a sign we should be looking to do the same .. i dont think long term Shaws message will stay fresh with north and they will suddenly become a huge threat to the flag but for the moment he seems to be having his team enjoying their footy and giving the efforts they werent giving under Scott.. with how we have played over the last 3 games i think we need some of that

If i was a coach i would consider it smart to listen to my assistants.
If i was a coach under pressure i would certainly be willing to try their idea's.
So...
Do we think the interim coaches just snap their fingers and suddenly the teams can play good footy?
Possibilities.

a) the teams are hyped up like kids on red cordial and will come crashing down.
b) the previous coaches were stubborn asses who wouldn't listen to their assistants, and therefore are not good coaches.
c) the assistants were keeping their own ideas secret, ready to unleash them when it made them look good. So not good coaches.
d) the teams are all robots.. and a simple change of programming made them play good all of a sudden.

I know that teaching a new game plan isn't something you can do in a week.

 

[bennymc7]

Clark was genuinely turning me on yesterday..

Huge shining light, rapt for him to stamp himself on a game like that

 

[Saint Watto]

One positive from yesterday is that we had a good crowd in....just under 41K.

It puts our home game average at just over 29K.

There were a lot of Tigers fans there yesterday and we should have made some good coin with the new stadium deal.

Importantly.......Maddies Vision would have raised a lot of money.

When we were 6 goals straight and the crowd was up and about.......memories of the RTB and GT days came flooding back......we were getting heaps of games in those days with crowds of 40K plus.


Aaarrhhhh…..the memories.

 

[DarkSaint]

Clark was genuinely turning me on yesterday..

Huge shining light, rapt for him to stamp himself on a game like that

Agree. Give him another 2 or 3 week's at half back and hopefully he can have similar outputs, and then for the last 4 or so games play him on ball so he has some idea of the areas he needs to work on in pre season to fulfil the midfield void we are lacking.

 

[The Punter]

It's not the skills, because opponent pressure can affect that.

It's the timidity with the ball. Last quarter Billings 50m out... 7m kick inside 50, play on, opportunity lost. Richmond blokes throw the ball onto the boot, goes through.

If you're going to die... die trying. Even Hind did it in the last (the ridiculous, responsibility-shirking short pass inside 50 when he could have just had a shot).

Marshall is a vast improvement on our previous rucks... offensively. We still concede monster games from opposition ruckmen however. I'm sure Marshall can sort that out.

 

[sunny3193]

Bruce is lightyears ahead of where McCartin has ever been however the quicker we replace Bruce with King the better. We need to replace blokes like Bruce if we are to improve. He’s a very average forward & would struggle to hold his spot in most teams IMO. But lazy he is not. He works all day but lacks skills & has the agility of the tin man.

Different view to you.
He is an ideal hard working third tall who would really be icing on the cake for a team in challenge mode.
Capable of 50+ goals when he is not the outmanned forward.
He is not, and will never be, the main man.
Brereton called him correctly in his first few games as a forward, our "Cameron Mooney".
That is what he is, so look for interest from teams in or around the 8 who need someone of that ilk.

 

[majortinkle]

So I'm a little confused. Can people enlighten me as to what we should actually do when we win possession at a stoppage on the back end of the centre square and the well drilled opposition flood back to defend space.

This is a serious question - what do people favour?

Should we

A - Long bomb to a contest in the forward line where we are outnumbered? (known as Richo's Only Plan)

B - chip sideways in the hope of drawing the opposition out of position so the entry can be to a one on one? (curiously also known as Richo's Only Plan)

C - try for the impossible 45% degree kick, turn it over in the centre square and get burnt on the rebound? (formerly known as Richo's Only plan)

I think we actually began to see the development of a viable alternative yesterday with players like Clark, Coffield Battle, Wilkie & Paton starting in the back half.

Players who can make Option C and are capable of being a goal scoring offensive option.

Our mids coach was the architect of Richmonds sideways first approach - the approach they abandoned in order to win a premiership after moving him on to Port.

I'm worried that the chip sideways may be the new guard getting their way and I'm not sure it's a winner....

It does give us the opportunity to get it in the hands of our better users for our entries though.

Tbh I'm not a skilled enough watcher to see the fix - our forwards never appear to have space, our mids seem to kick it on their heads and our crumbers never appear to be anywhere near the contest. I'm not seeing any easy solution though....

 

[DarkSaint]

It's not the skills, because opponent pressure can affect that.

It's the timidity with the ball. Last quarter Billings 50m out... 7m kick inside 50, play on, opportunity lost. Richmond blokes throw the ball onto the boot, goes through.

If you're going to die... die trying. Even Hind did it in the last (the ridiculous, responsibility-shirking short pass inside 50 when he could have just had a shot).

Marshall is a vast improvement on our previous rucks... offensively. We still concede monster games from opposition ruckmen however. I'm sure Marshall can sort that out.

That bit of play from Billing typifies how lacking in confidence we are with Richo at the helm. Running unopposed into the 50 and to not take a shot is just ridiculous. Were is the confidence gone from the kid who in his first 5 games was slotting them 55 out on the run from all angles????

You don't lose that ability, also it's not a fluke either when he was able to do it time and time again in his first season. As the years have gone on, he has become less and less confident in his own ability.

 

[The Punter]

That bit of play from Billing typifies how lacking in confidence we are with Richo at the helm. Running unopposed into the 50 and to not take a shot is just ridiculous. Were is the confidence gone from the kid who in his first 5 games was slotting them 55 out on the run from all angles????

You don't lose that ability, also it's not a fluke either when he was able to do it time and time again in his first season. As the years have gone on, he has become less and less confident in his own ability.

But seriously, he took it on TWO WEEKS AGO in Townsville. A goal from 50 on the run at that stage of the game would have woken up a large St Kilda crowd.

Also, we don't handball enough. Some of the best passages of play came yesterday when a missed kick MADE the team handball. Would absolutely bring someone like Hind into the game more, that sort of "broken" play.

 

[sunny3193]

Our mids coach was the architect of Richmonds sideways first approach - the approach they abandoned in order to win a premiership after moving him on to Port.

I'm worried that the chip sideways may be the new guard getting their way and I'm not sure it's a winner....

It does give us the opportunity to get it in the hands of our better users for our entries though.

Tbh I'm not a skilled enough watcher to see the fix - our forwards never appear to have space, our mids seem to kick it on their heads and our crumbers never appear to be anywhere near the contest. I'm not seeing any easy solution though....

My impression is that we tried to use the same methods that proved successful earlier in the year (Hawthorn and Essendon games in particular).
To an extent, it worked.
But of course, as pointed out by #plugger66 , you can only play as well as the opposition will let you.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Riewoldt and Dal Santo have done it again. Both using yesterday to support their claim that Marshall is suited to playing forward because he spent some time there in the last. That is absolutely insane. Did they watch the game? He was in the top three players on the ground. As a ruckman. They have this notion that he is poor at tap work, probably because he didn't dominate it in the first month of the season. He has clearly improved his tap work enormously already. He had 12 hit outs to advantage last week and 14 yesterday.

 

[Rickee]

Once again, they are full of positive talk only to completely and utterly fail when it came to action.

Why on earth would you start so brightly and then decide "well, that's working, so lets completely change it to something we know for sure doesn't so we get overrun and lose. And don't forget to completely throw away a 7.0 start to finish 10.10".

I'm sick and tired of it, we have been jogging in place for far too long and are starting to circle the drain.

 

[Jade Buddha]

The demoralising part was how easily we fell away when the heat came in the last. Was hoping to see some mongrel determination even if we don’t win- go down swinging

 

[bennymc7]

The writing off of Gresham as a mid is laughable..

It's his first year as a full-time midfielder..

He's had some excellent games (Carlton and Essendon spring to mind), some meh games (like yesterday) and some poor games..

Disposals are way up and blind Freddy can see he's got plenty of development left in him, he'll be fine

 

[bennymc7]

Agree. Give him another 2 or 3 week's at half back and hopefully he can have similar outputs, and then for the last 4 or so games play him on ball so he has some idea of the areas he needs to work on in pre season to fulfil the midfield void we are lacking.

I'm happy with 80/20 half back to on ball.. some minutes at the end of qtrs but happy to let him get comfortable at hb for now, only 19

 

[The Punter]

Seriously, the only thing Gresh needs to work on as a mid is disposal.

 

[Ads734]

Riewoldt and Dal Santo have done it again. Both using yesterday to support their claim that Marshall is suited to playing forward because he spent some time there in the last. That is absolutely insane. Did they watch the game? He was in the top three players on the ground. As a ruckman. They have this notion that he is poor at tap work, probably because he didn't dominate it in the first month of the season. He has clearly improved his tap work enormously already. He had 12 hit outs to advantage last week and 14 yesterday.

Couldn;t agree more, He's already doing well in the ruck give him some more time. Besides tap work is one element of his work around the stoppage. You have to take into account his clearance and tackling work too. Then he becomes a very damageing contest player.

 

[cooperrules]

Clark was genuinely turning me on yesterday..

Huge shining light, rapt for him to stamp himself on a game like that

Played ok looks a little slow for my liking.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Seriously, the only thing Gresh needs to work on as a mid is disposal.

Could do worse than emulate Rob Harvey the master of the 25 metre pass
Gresh looks like he’s trying to kick the skin off the ball

 

[Jade Buddha]

Played ok looks a little slow for my liking.

So did Dal but he went ok