Opinion Who will be our next head coach?

Who will be our next head coach?

  • Brett Ratten

    Votes: 81 68.6%
  • Robert Harvey

    Votes: 17 14.4%
  • Justin Longmuir

    Votes: 8 6.8%
  • Brad Scott

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Ross Lyon

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 5.1%

  • Total voters
    118

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Improvement? Compared to their under 18 years? They are very good players. Some are only now finding form.

Who knows the players they could have become under a better coach, in a better team - same for all. Too many variables for me to be convinced of the coaches worth based purely on SOME players natural progression.

If it were all players, or if he'd taken poor players and made them useful I'd be more convinced.

The only players you could really put in that bracket are Geary, Wright, Weller, Bruce and Hickey.

If you're just talking about players that are fulfilling their potential under Alan, I'll see your list and raise you

Coffield
Savage
Ross
Dunstan
Acres
Steele
Newnes
Longer
Long
Austin
Phillips
White
Sinclair
MacKenzie
Rice
Clavarino
Pierce
Connelan
Freeman
Markworth
O'Kearney
Lee
Spencer White
Murdoch
Saunders

I'm not saying he's responsible for the spuds, a bad player is a bad player, but what has he done / did he do with those players?

I don't see improvement apart from expected improvement that would happen in any given (non-toxic) scenario.

You could add guys like Siposs who were going well under Watters and he cleared the decks of those guys. Eli Templeton and Saad, Dunnell and maybe even that skinny mid that was going okay at Sandy, I've just gone blank on his name. Also over saw losing Stanley, selling picks out for future picks from the Hawks etc. List management and player development under Richo hasn't been a highlight.

People will excuse it as them being not good enough but that's impossible to measure, you can hardly hold up the keepers to suggest he knew what he was doing.
 
OK let me try another way.


(BTW, I think my list of improvers is better. You could claim that Richo turned Bruce from a disposable defender into a leading forward, except like all current Saints players, his form is so inconsistent. He definitely has got the best out of Geary. He turned delisted Mav Weller into a defensive forward enforcer but then the spell wore off. He briefly found a similar use for Nate Wright.)

The players you listed; do you really believe that Richo is responsible for their 'improvement'? Billings was draft pick 3, he's just played 100 games, how much would you put on his inclusion in the 2019 AA final list? Bench or best 18? Gresham is a gun, but wasn't he always going to be? Even so, would you say he is consistently one of our best players? Lonie, you might have a case. His form took a dip, dropped right to the periphery of the list and was on the table, so far this year, was one of our biggest positives before injury. Why only this year though, not before? Battle? Maybe. Not many people saw him as a defender, but Alan took the chance, allowed him to bed in, luckily it worked. Marshall was a forward who didn't care for rucking, Was it Richo who insisted that he work on his ruckwork? Maybe that tough love he showed last year paid off. Webster was a bit wayward early on, maybe it's Richo that anchored him, got his consistency up and kept him on the straight and narrow.

So let's be optimistic and assume that it is the Teachings of Cho that have turned these GOPs into top players. Without Alan's sage advice Jack Billings would merely be another player from the top 10 that was a total spud. And now he's finally up there with the likes of the Bont and Jelly Kelly. etc

But what about the players who are still yet to realise their potential? If you are granting him the glory for Billings and Gresh, you must do the same for that much longer list of players who have so far either stagnated or developed more slowly than expected.

What about Acres' improvement? White's? Ross's? Newnes's? Dunstan's? MacKenzie's? Austin's? Clav's? They are not all bad players, surely? Their peers are passing them. Did we just recruit all the slower developing ones? Of course injuries and team performance play a part, but they have shown promise, why haven't they shown consistent signs of becoming our Cripps, our Lever, etc? Maybe next year?

I don't think it's Richo's fault directly, but their stagnation is happening on his watch. What can he do about it? He's their head coach. He is ultimately responsible for their development and has huge influence on the atmosphere in which they work.

The fairest assessment of Richo might be "he got good results out of the good players and bad results out of the bad players". So what was his influence exactly?

But anyway it's moot. We can never know exactly why certain players didn't come on, or did. I just don't think you can look at the performance or stats or eye test of any player on our list and say definitely "That's because of Richo", so I'd like to see Jimmy Bartell defend his comment.


Lonie was gone if Richo an the footy department could have organised it. They tried to make him feel unwelcome as well.
 
Honestly wouldn’t have a clue. Doubt we have the money to get rid of them all. Depend on contracts

I didn’t mean we’d move him on, but if someone else got the job which he wanted, I just wondered whether he’d want to stay on.
Just surmising. I suppose it depends who gets it.
 
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Brad Scott wasn’t actually playing in the game where Riewoldt was bumped whilst injured, so I hope people aren’t using that incident as a reason for not wanting B Scott as coach.

I’m not sure if I want him as our next coach or not, but he is not guilty of that (cowardly) act, even though he looks like the guy who did it.
Nah just threw Lenny into a fence breaking his arm.
But Demetriou said he apologised so no sanction warrented.
 

JiggsteR45

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May 10, 2017
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I watched it last night and thought similar.

It wouldn't be a big stretch to think Roo is not the biggest fan of the Scott brothers after the famous "incident" they were involved in. But even if that's not the case, I was a massive fan of him backing the "process" and preemptively calling out any nepotism between Lethlean and Scott before it happens. It was a very clever and subtle message from a true Saints person and now supporter that he doesn't want this club to become one that promotes "jobs for the boys."

As someone who has had a lot of experience with this particular network, the biggest danger with Lethlean will always be nepotism. This article in The Age goes through it well https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-xavier-network-20120928-26r0y.html, and it even missed a few key players (for example, the main reason a lot of the Old Xavs got an "in" at AFL house in the first place was a former principal and assistant coach of the very successful school teams from the 80s and early 90s left the priesthood and worked for the AFL... after that, other Old Xavs followed).

The main problem with these networks is, they work until they don't. So if the people they get in are good, then everything is fine. But, once the inevitable questionable appointment comes up, then scrutiny, rightly, comes onto the decision-making process.

And it honestly can't be underestimated how conservative decision-makers from these networks can be. "Outsiders" (basically anyone outside these networks) are generally not trusted at best or treated with disdain at worst. They overestimate the ability of those they "know" at the expense of others. There's a reason nepotism is considered such a huge obstacle in running successful open companies and societies and it must be avoided at all costs. I know first hand that Melbourne private schools can give a great educational experience but the downside is they are very sheltered environments where these sorts of negative networks abound. You realise it fully when you move away.

Which brings me back to Roo. Why I trust Roo (and to some extent Basset) is they are ST KILDA PEOPLE FIRST AND FOREMOST!!!! Not careerists or others hiring mates because they know and trust them. I honestly believe they want to see the best for the club. And, like when Dunstall went back to help out the Hawks when they hired Clarko, we need to listen to the likes of Roo more than anyone at this time to ensure that a bullet-proof process to find the best possible coach for St Kilda is found.

We have to get this appointment right. St Kilda people know this. And even the slightest whiff of nepotism must be stamped out in the process to find the best coach for us.

Fantastic post!!!! Kudos Colleague....... (from an All Saints old boy )️️
 

VDS66

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 4, 2011
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You could add guys like Siposs who were going well under Watters and he cleared the decks of those guys. Eli Templeton and Saad, Dunnell and maybe even that skinny mid that was going okay at Sandy, I've just gone blank on his name. Also over saw losing Stanley, selling picks out for future picks from the Hawks etc. List management and player development under Richo hasn't been a highlight.

People will excuse it as them being not good enough but that's impossible to measure, you can hardly hold up the keepers to suggest he knew what he was doing.
Sipposs going well under Watters?

I must have slept through that.

Once again, how many of those players went into have an AFL career?

Zero by my reckoning.

This discussion has become tedious.
 

VDS66

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 4, 2011
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OK let me try another way.


(BTW, I think my list of improvers is better. You could claim that Richo turned Bruce from a disposable defender into a leading forward, except like all current Saints players, his form is so inconsistent. He definitely has got the best out of Geary. He turned delisted Mav Weller into a defensive forward enforcer but then the spell wore off. He briefly found a similar use for Nate Wright.)

The players you listed; do you really believe that Richo is responsible for their 'improvement'? Billings was draft pick 3, he's just played 100 games, how much would you put on his inclusion in the 2019 AA final list? Bench or best 18? Gresham is a gun, but wasn't he always going to be? Even so, would you say he is consistently one of our best players? Lonie, you might have a case. His form took a dip, dropped right to the periphery of the list and was on the table, so far this year, was one of our biggest positives before injury. Why only this year though, not before? Battle? Maybe. Not many people saw him as a defender, but Alan took the chance, allowed him to bed in, luckily it worked. Marshall was a forward who didn't care for rucking, Was it Richo who insisted that he work on his ruckwork? Maybe that tough love he showed last year paid off. Webster was a bit wayward early on, maybe it's Richo that anchored him, got his consistency up and kept him on the straight and narrow.

So let's be optimistic and assume that it is the Teachings of Cho that have turned these GOPs into top players. Without Alan's sage advice Jack Billings would merely be another player from the top 10 that was a total spud. And now he's finally up there with the likes of the Bont and Jelly Kelly. etc

But what about the players who are still yet to realise their potential? If you are granting him the glory for Billings and Gresh, you must do the same for that much longer list of players who have so far either stagnated or developed more slowly than expected.

What about Acres' improvement? White's? Ross's? Newnes's? Dunstan's? MacKenzie's? Austin's? Clav's? They are not all bad players, surely? Their peers are passing them. Did we just recruit all the slower developing ones? Of course injuries and team performance play a part, but they have shown promise, why haven't they shown consistent signs of becoming our Cripps, our Lever, etc? Maybe next year?

I don't think it's Richo's fault directly, but their stagnation is happening on his watch. What can he do about it? He's their head coach. He is ultimately responsible for their development and has huge influence on the atmosphere in which they work.

The fairest assessment of Richo might be "he got good results out of the good players and bad results out of the bad players". So what was his influence exactly?

But anyway it's moot. We can never know exactly why certain players didn't come on, or did. I just don't think you can look at the performance or stats or eye test of any player on our list and say definitely "That's because of Richo", so I'd like to see Jimmy Bartell defend his comment.
All I'm saying is you can't argue it both ways.

Same system, same coach. Some improve, others don't.

Truth is in there somewhere.

I think Bartel knows his stuff when it comes to footy. Multiple premiership player, Brownlow medalist etc.

However I feel that because his comments go against the anti-cho narrative in here they are dismissed as poorly informed.

IMO.
 
Lonie was gone if Richo an the footy department could have organised it. They tried to make him feel unwelcome as well.
Lonie didn't do a lot last year to think he would make it.
 
Sipposs going well under Watters?

I must have slept through that.

Once again, how many of those players went into have an AFL career?

Zero by my reckoning.

This discussion has become tedious.


That is just an illogical argument that one. Very few are recycled, I'd say Mark Hutchings wasn't as good as a lot of the players we delisted over the years but has gone on to have solid career. Does that mean he's gun just because he got another go? It's tedious that people rehash a stupid argument as evidence.
 

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VDS66

Brownlow Medallist
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That is just an illogical argument that one. Very few are recycled, I'd say Mark Hutchings wasn't as good as a lot of the players we delisted over the years but has gone on to have solid career. Does that mean he's gun just because he got another go? It's tedious that people rehash a stupid argument as evidence.
OK so logically...

Every team churns it's list with players that don't make it.

Does this mean that all other coaches are s**t at developing those players?

The irony here is that you've been the Lone Ranger about how much Richo has overachieved given the dogs breakfast of a list.

So going back to logic, which is suddenly your new bff, Richo was OK at developing some players.
 
OK so logically...

Every team churns it's list with players that don't make it.

Does this mean that all other coaches are s**t at developing those players?

The irony here is that you've been the Lone Ranger about how much Richo has overachieved given the dogs breakfast of a list.

So going back to logic, which is suddenly your new bff, Richo was OK at developing some players.


I think he's had less to work with than a lot of coaches. His style has actually probably held some back and others have done better with in it. I don't know if it's him alone but we have held some and let some go, the ones we have kept aren't anything special so maybe we let the wrong ones go. All I know is that some players felt he was playing favourites and was dishonest about what he wanted then to achieve to get games.

We don't know but plenty are delisted every year, who knows if they were good enough, unlucky or what ever. He's gone any way so just enjoy the ride.
 

VDS66

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I think he's had less to work with than a lot of coaches. His style has actually probably held some back and others have done better with in it. I don't know if it's him alone but we have held some and let some go, the ones we have kept aren't anything special so maybe we let the wrong ones go. All I know is that some players felt he was playing favourites and was dishonest about what he wanted then to achieve to get games.

We don't know but plenty are delisted every year, who knows if they were good enough, unlucky or what ever. He's gone any way so just enjoy the ride.
Agree.

And every club has players who aren't getting a game saying their coach has favourites.

The original discussion was based on Bartel's assertion that Richo had developed some young kids.
 
You could add guys like Siposs who were going well under Watters and he cleared the decks of those guys. Eli Templeton and Saad, Dunnell and maybe even that skinny mid that was going okay at Sandy, I've just gone blank on his name. Also over saw losing Stanley, selling picks out for future picks from the Hawks etc. List management and player development under Richo hasn't been a highlight.

People will excuse it as them being not good enough but that's impossible to measure, you can hardly hold up the keepers to suggest he knew what he was doing.

You really think any of those guys were up to it?
And you forgot the Saad debacle?
 
Jan 10, 2011
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I think he's had less to work with than a lot of coaches. His style has actually probably held some back and others have done better with in it. I don't know if it's him alone but we have held some and let some go, the ones we have kept aren't anything special so maybe we let the wrong ones go. All I know is that some players felt he was playing favourites and was dishonest about what he wanted then to achieve to get games.

We don't know but plenty are delisted every year, who knows if they were good enough, unlucky or what ever. He's gone any way so just enjoy the ride.
Let’s get this straight. Clubs have recruiters all over the country and see stars and players not up to it. Are you saying these same sort of people miss out on our guys because of our development. Surely if they are so smart they would see our players were delisted because of poor development and say let’s get this player because I know with good development they will become a good player. No they don’t because the players we delist just aren’t good enough. If it was development there would be a fair few players picked up. The one thing we have done right is lose bugger all players that have gone to other clubs because we delisted them.
 
Let’s get this straight. Clubs have recruiters all over the country and see stars and players not up to it. Are you saying these same sort of people miss out on our guys because of our development. Surely if they are so smart they would see our players were delisted because of poor development and say let’s get this player because I know with good development they will become a good player. No they don’t because the players we delist just aren’t good enough. If it was development there would be a fair few players picked up. The one thing we have done right is lose bugger all players that have gone to other clubs because we delisted them.

Sippos , Dunnell, Nathan Wright, all still playing, available for anyone who wants them.
Saad? Milera? Templeton. IMO they were worth a shot but not up to it.
 
You really think any of those guys were up to it?
And you forgot the Saad debacle?


Saad was very good before his drug issues. He was cut without being given much chance to get back to full fitness, possibly because he wasn't a hard working grind them down type. Richo has a preference for utilitarian work horses.
 
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Sippos , Dunnell, Nathan Wright, all still playing, available for anyone who wants them.
Saad? Milera? Templeton. IMO they were worth a shot but not up to it.
Sippos is playing but it’s American footy Agree though. Where is the rush for all our delisted players. Even munching tin and Goddard will probably be gone at the end of this year.
 
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