The state of the Giants and Suns

[Yojimbo]

The Gold Coast Suns should have been the Southport Sharks from inception as they had a supporter
base already established and could have shared the Gabba which would of saved them building the
oval in Gold Coast. Now I doubt the wisdom of a second Queensland team as there are too many
teams full stop, there are a lot of teams whose supporters will never see a premiership in their life.
Now as a Bulldog supporter I can tell you the thrill of seeing our colours in the Grand Final parade
was an out of body experience and I am glad a lot of our diehard supporters got to see it. The
other factor in having football North of Sydney is the climatic conditions and the effect those
conditions can have on the footballers. The big clubs pay for AFLX and AFLW and Expansion and
Equalisation, but for how long. Competitions like the EPL show us through historical data that the
little clubs are just pit stops for the players until they have enough currency to get to a big club.
Do we want to be the EPL where only a select few can win the title, don't hold your breathe too
long because it is close to reality now.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Gws has 30,000 members yet night in question 16,000 watching on TV & maybe 6,000 at ground.
Stadium empty & free tickets a bound yet gws renerates more ticket revenue than NRL clubs.
None of this adds up.

Member numbers for all clubs are a joke. A sticker member is counted as one, like ticketed member.

The number just gives you an idea of how many email accounts a club's sponsors and other 3rd parties can potentially bombard with spam

 

[Pippen94]

Obviously the AFL, Fox sports and ch7 think differently.

You should be thankful your mob were the same not that long ago.

Foxtel now losing money. If broadcast deal less next time you guys are gone.
Swans drew big crowds in 1980's for several seasons. Average crowd higher for same seasons.
Gws hasn't grown is 9 years.

 

[abcde12345]

Foxtel now losing money. If broadcast deal less next time you guys are gone.

I highly doubt it.

I have told you this before, but you seem to always ignore it. The AFL currently runs at a $50m surplus and has cash reserves of about $200m. The AFL also derives a considerable amount of its revenue from non-TV sources (unlike most other comps such as the NRL).

There are a considerable amount of steps the AFL could take before cutting a team. Salary cap cuts (directly or indirectly by reducing on field numbers and list sizes), football department spending cuts, executive cuts, hard-capping football department spend and introducing taxes to richer clubs. That is just off the top of my head without even delving into it.

It is also reasonable to suspect that other disruptive forces are likely to come into negotiations to help bring the value of the media rights up. I suspect that neither the AFL or NRL are going to experience significant downturns (could be wrong), but more likely that more fringe sports with expensive deals to foxtel (such as soccer) are going to suffer.

Swans drew big crowds in 1980's for several seasons. Average crowd higher for same seasons.
Gws hasn't grown is 9 years.

The Swans over their first 7 seasons averaged home crowds of a bit under 16k. The Giants average a bit over 11k. The following 7 years the Swans averaged crowds of a bit over 11k (they actually averaged less over this period than the Giants have over their existence).

It took the Swans until about the mid 90s to consistently get good crowds.

The AFL stuck by them, and as a result they can comfortably claim to have the biggest professional sporting club in NSW. The decision to ensure the Swans survived has had massive positive outcomes for the AFL in NSW. Their crowds have barely even been impacted this season by poor form (which was a concern a lot of people had).

The AFL has already demonstrated how important it is to stick with these clubs over the long term. They know it will take (a lot of) time, but there is no way they will get rid of them any time in the next 50 years. Smaller Melbourne based clubs would be in far more danger over that time period.

 

[Pippen94]

I highly doubt it.

I have told you this before, but you seem to always ignore it. The AFL currently runs at a $50m surplus and has cash reserves of about $200m. The AFL also derives a considerable amount of its revenue from non-TV sources (unlike most other comps such as the NRL).

There are a considerable amount of steps the AFL could take before cutting a team. Salary cap cuts (directly or indirectly by reducing on field numbers and list sizes), football department spending cuts, executive cuts, hard-capping football department spend and introducing taxes to richer clubs. That is just off the top of my head without even delving into it.

It is also reasonable to suspect that other disruptive forces are likely to come into negotiations to help bring the value of the media rights up. I suspect that neither the AFL or NRL are going to experience significant downturns (could be wrong), but more likely that more fringe sports with expensive deals to foxtel (such as soccer) are going to suffer.


The Swans over their first 7 seasons averaged home crowds of a bit under 16k. The Giants average a bit over 11k. The following 7 years the Swans averaged crowds of a bit over 11k (they actually averaged less over this period than the Giants have over their existence).

It took the Swans until about the mid 90s to consistently get good crowds.

The AFL stuck by them, and as a result they can comfortably claim to have the biggest professional sporting club in NSW. The decision to ensure the Swans survived has had massive positive outcomes for the AFL in NSW. Their crowds have barely even been impacted this season by poor form (which was a concern a lot of people had).

The AFL has already demonstrated how important it is to stick with these clubs over the long term. They know it will take (a lot of) time, but there is no way they will get rid of them any time in the next 50 years. Smaller Melbourne based clubs would be in far more danger over that time period.

Established clubs bring supporters - gws brings nothing. Already resentment towards funding gws + GC, imagine next broadcasting deal.
Don't cherry pick attendances. In 1986 & 87 swans averaged over 20,000 per game. Gws had same on field result & got nowhere near that.
Gws crowds down last two years - That's INVERSE OF GROWTH. Imagine if real numbers were reported.

 

[Colonial]

Established clubs bring supporters - gws brings nothing. Already resentment towards funding gws + GC, imagine next broadcasting deal.
Don't cherry pick attendances. In 1986 & 87 swans averaged over 20,000 per game. Gws had same on field result & got nowhere near that.
Gws crowds down last two years - That's INVERSE OF GROWTH. Imagine if real numbers were reported.

Brings nothing? Except new supporters a broader junior base etc etc etc.

Point on the doll where Kevin Sheeds hurt you.

 

[abcde12345]

Established clubs bring supporters - gws brings nothing. Already resentment towards funding gws + GC, imagine next broadcasting deal.
Don't cherry pick attendances. In 1986 & 87 swans averaged over 20,000 per game. Gws had same on field result & got nowhere near that.
Gws crowds down last two years - That's INVERSE OF GROWTH. Imagine if real numbers were reported.

I am not cherry picking attendances. Picking out two years and using it as an argument is LITERALLY cherry picking, so I have no idea what you're on about there.

GWS have completed 7 full years. Hence why I compared the first 7 years of Swans (in Sydney - note: these figures included the ones you cherry picked) to the Giants over their life. That is where the 16k to 11k comparison comes from. I then pointed out that it took the Swans another seven years of "INVERSE OF GROWTH", as you put it, before they were able to buck the trend and start producing consistent off-field results.

If the AFL had the same expectation of the Swans that you have of the Giants, they would have been axed at multiple points in their life.

Instead, they were not so naive as to use short term trends to determine long term outcomes. They have come out saying these are generational projects. I don't know anyone who would think 7 years is a generation.

I legitimately cannot fathom your passionate hatred towards the Giants. Sporting clubs take generations to settle in to the landscape, particularly in foreign territory. If you are actually a Swans fan (highly doubtful), then you are hilariously hypocritical.

The existence of the Giants has lead to more total football fans in Sydney and Canberra coming through the doors. If the Giants continue to be successful on field, it is likely to further encourage kids in Sydney to take the game up (especially if the Swans can continue to be competitive too), and will lead to more fruitful academies for both the Swans and the Giants, as well as continuing to grow the presence of the game in the Sydney market.

The fact people on this site expect long term growth to happen instantly is just bizarre.

 

[FootyJunkie]

Brings nothing? Except new supporters a broader junior base etc etc etc.

Point on the doll where Kevin Sheeds hurt you.View attachment 710431

I didn't know GWS debuted in the 90s

 

[Pippen94]

Brings nothing? Except new supporters a broader junior base etc etc etc.

Point on the doll where Kevin Sheeds hurt you.View attachment 710431

You have no supporters let's be honest. Look at ratings & crowds. Junior base is riverina which is robbing well supported clubs of success.
Sheedy's comments about WSW fans is reason gws will never be a success.

 

[Jen2310]

The Gold Coast Suns should have been the Southport Sharks from inception as they had a supporter
base already established and could have shared the Gabba which would of saved them building the
oval in Gold Coast. Now I doubt the wisdom of a second Queensland team as there are too many
teams full stop, there are a lot of teams whose supporters will never see a premiership in their life.
Now as a Bulldog supporter I can tell you the thrill of seeing our colours in the Grand Final parade
was an out of body experience and I am glad a lot of our diehard supporters got to see it. The
other factor in having football North of Sydney is the climatic conditions and the effect those
conditions can have on the footballers. The big clubs pay for AFLX and AFLW and Expansion and
Equalisation, but for how long. Competitions like the EPL show us through historical data that the
little clubs are just pit stops for the players until they have enough currency to get to a big club.
Do we want to be the EPL where only a select few can win the title, don't hold your breathe too
long because it is close to reality now.

The ground on the coast was always there. Had been for decades. The Bears played there. All they did was upgrade it.

 

[abcde12345]

Swans made finals & immediately gained support. Gws was in same situation & failed to gain fans. The club has contracted over last two years with lower crowds & ratings. Western Sydney will never play the sport. There is no hint over the past 9 years that will ever change. The idea of long term investment will hurt the game for years - need to get rid of these failures.

Swans made finals in 86 and 87. Next season they averaged 12k attendance.

You have no supporters let's be honest. Look at ratings & crowds. Junior base is riverina which is robbing well supported clubs of success.
Sheedy's comments about WSW fans is reason gws will never be a success.

I didn't realise that 12,000 was the same as 0.

Lucky the AFL doesn't have to prop up so many teams with no supporters like the NRL do then.

 

[Stitch]

These figures paint a better picture of past, present and future.

Suns vs Giants

Draft Concessions
Suns: no mini draft picks
Giants: 4 x mini draft picks which were traded for ND Picks 1, 3, 4 and 10 and 14 (across 2011/2012)
Salary Cap Allowance
Suns: + $1 million (2011), 800k ('12), 600k ('13), 400k ('14) [Total: 2.8 million]
GWS: + $1 million (for 3 seasons: '12, '13, '14), 880k ('15), 760k ('16) [Total: 4.6 million]
List Size
Suns: 48 down to standard size by 2015 (4 years)
GWS: 50 for 3 seasons then down to standard size by 2019 (8 years)
Crowd Averages in 2019 (so far):
Suns: Home - 11.3k (18th), Away - 27.3k (16th) (Total average rank: 18th)
GWS: Home - 11.6k (17th), Away - 29.1k (14th) (Total average rank: 17th)
Supporters in 2018:
Suns: 12k (18th)
GWS: 25k (17th)
Revenue Ranking in 2017:
Suns: 17th
GWS: 16th
(note: both clubs don't source any revenues from gaming, hence the low ranking, as its estimated that up to a 20%* of a club's revenue can be attributed to gaming. *Most clubs don't separate hospitality and gaming earnings and so the figure is based on information from clubs that do)
AFL Funding in 2017:
Suns: 24.7 million (accounted for 62% of their revenue!!)
GWS: 17.6 million (42%) (*which is actually less funding than the Lions and Saints)
For comparison: Brisbane (40%), North (42%, no gaming machines) and St.Kilda (43%)

Summary: Suns weren't given the right tools to begin with and whilst its possible to bring them up to a league standard on the field in the next 3-5 years, it's highly unlikely that the club will ever be able to financially support themselves independently within this time or into the future without the additions of lower social revenue streams like gaming. Not good signs for the club and fairly indicative of the historical context for sporting clubs on the Gold Coast. Whilst Giants aren't quite in the goldilocks zone of high support base and low AFL funding, they're on target, only concern is the discrepancy between member numbers and home crowd averages - its almost as bad as Hawthorn's with its fair-weather supporters .

 

[Professor Knowall]

Time to mention Wheatley's interview with Gil yesterday on SEN about the expansion clubs where, once again, he reiterated that it was a generational project that the Commision, with the full support of all the clubs, are totally committed for the long term, and said the expansion clubs have already been a success in their primary purpose (for the AFL) of growing the game, citing participation numbers had more than doubled and (more importantly) the number of Australian Football clubs had grown by 80% in the targeted regions.

So these clubs are staying put - there's no way known the AFL will reverse its course on this, successfully implementing the Carter Plan to grow the game in the NSW and .

Unlike Pippen94 who is merely a paranoid rugby league troll (just check out his posting history), I've actually attended 4 Giants games and hope to attend a 5th this weekend if I can fit in my work schedule (and despite the annoyingly high cost). From my experience, the crowd counts have been quite accurate, and the proportion of local support has steadily increased each time.

I haven't yet been to Metricon, but what sets apart the Giants crowd demographics apart from any other I've seen is the proportionally really high numbers of families with young children - lots of children. It's obvious than rather than wasting resources chasing older rusted on rugby supporters, the club is targeting the next generation and doing a good job in doing so, with children's activities at each game etc. They are playing the long game in getting a new generation of players and supporters of our game.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

Australians are so weird when it comes to their footy. Is there another country that is divided as us when it comes to a national sport? Imagine if half of the USA hated the NBA.

 

[Pippen94]

These figures paint a better picture of past, present and future.

Suns vs Giants

Draft Concessions
Suns: no mini draft picks
Giants: 4 x mini draft picks which were traded for ND Picks 1, 3, 4 and 10 and 14 (across 2011/2012)
Salary Cap Allowance
Suns: + $1 million (2011), 800k ('12), 600k ('13), 400k ('14) [Total: 2.8 million]
GWS: + $1 million (for 3 seasons: '12, '13, '14), 880k ('15), 760k ('16) [Total: 4.6 million]
List Size
Suns: 48 down to standard size by 2015 (4 years)
GWS: 50 for 3 seasons then down to standard size by 2019 (8 years)
Crowd Averages in 2019 (so far):
Suns: Home - 11.3k (18th), Away - 27.3k (16th) (Total average rank: 18th)
GWS: Home - 11.6k (17th), Away - 29.1k (14th) (Total average rank: 17th)
Supporters in 2018:
Suns: 12k (18th)
GWS: 25k (17th)
Revenue Ranking in 2017:
Suns: 17th
GWS: 16th
(note: both clubs don't source any revenues from gaming, hence the low ranking, as its estimated that up to a 20%* of a club's revenue can be attributed to gaming. *Most clubs don't separate hospitality and gaming earnings and so the figure is based on information from clubs that do)
AFL Funding in 2017:
Suns: 24.7 million (accounted for 62% of their revenue!!)
GWS: 17.6 million (42%) (*which is actually less funding than the Lions and Saints)
For comparison: Brisbane (40%), North (42%, no gaming machines) and St.Kilda (43%)

Summary: Suns weren't given the right tools to begin with and whilst its possible to bring them up to a league standard on the field in the next 3-5 years, it's highly unlikely that the club will ever be able to financially support themselves independently within this time or into the future without the additions of lower social revenue streams like gaming. Not good signs for the club and fairly indicative of the historical context for sporting clubs on the Gold Coast. Whilst Giants aren't quite in the goldilocks zone of high support base and low AFL funding, they're on target, only concern is the discrepancy between member numbers and home crowd averages - its almost as bad as Hawthorn's with its fair-weather supporters .

Used 2017 figures to hide gws received the most in 2018 including secret payments;
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage ... 51845.html

 

[abcde12345]

Used 2017 figures to hide gws received the most in 2018 including secret payments;
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage ... 51845.html

A shocking secret that the organisation that controls the club is the one that fronts up when it runs a deficit. Who could've possibly suspected?!

 

[Yojimbo]

The ground on the coast was always there. Had been for decades. The Bears played there. All they did was upgrade it.

Pretty sure the Southport Sharks have been around longer as has the Gabba, you don't have to relocate
the portables or upgrade it.

 

[Brasher]

Foxtel now losing money. If broadcast deal less next time you guys are gone.
Swans drew big crowds in 1980's for several seasons. Average crowd higher for same seasons.
Gws hasn't grown is 9 years.

Not sure if the value of the broadcasting contract would dictate the survival of lesser followed clubs but I could certainly see Foxtel or Channel 7 telling the AFL they could no longer be bothered investing the broadcast operating costs for games that don't rate.

As far as the GWS growth is concerned...it is all about perspective, as a neutral fan I would watch a GWS game not playing the Crows over about half the other sides in the competition. I wouldn't have said that 5 years ago.

Gold Coast on the other hand is no place for professional sports franchises. History has proven that over and over.

 

[Walshawk]

The Gold Coast Suns should have been the Southport Sharks from inception as they had a supporter
base already established and could have shared the Gabba which would of saved them building the
oval in Gold Coast. Now I doubt the wisdom of a second Queensland team as there are too many
teams full stop, there are a lot of teams whose supporters will never see a premiership in their life.
Now as a Bulldog supporter I can tell you the thrill of seeing our colours in the Grand Final parade
was an out of body experience and I am glad a lot of our diehard supporters got to see it. The
other factor in having football North of Sydney is the climatic conditions and the effect those
conditions can have on the footballers. The big clubs pay for AFLX and AFLW and Expansion and
Equalisation, but for how long. Competitions like the EPL show us through historical data that the
little clubs are just pit stops for the players until they have enough currency to get to a big club.
Do we want to be the EPL where only a select few can win the title, don't hold your breathe too
long because it is close to reality now.

Southport Sharks club is like as NSW leagues club and has lots of members who use the facilities - bar, restaurant, bands,etc. the football club might have up to 1000 followers. There was/is no existing supporter base for an AFL club.

 

[Yojimbo]

Southport Sharks club is like as NSW leagues club and has lots of members who use the facilities - bar, restaurant, bands,etc. the football club might have up to 1000 followers. There was/is no existing supporter base for an AFL club.

Wikipedia is your friend Walshawk might want to check out the list of former AFL/VFL players as well as
the 2006 merger proposal with a Victorian club, hell they even welcome 2019 Gold Coast members.

 

[Juddernaut08]

GWS are on track imo. Yes they are not flying but they are building and competent.

The coach Leon Cameron imo is not AFL - standard and is their major weakness.

Make and win more finals. Keep bringing in talent. Keep building. AFL should ensure they have an increased COLA too so they never reach the debacle levels of GC Suns atm. Easier and cheaper to avoid a problem than to fix it.

 

[footyfan000001]

Out of curiosity - who is the biggest name player that the suns or giants have recruited to their club?? (Not including the start up teams where they got Ablett, Ward etc).

I think that’s their biggest issue, nobody wants to go there and play and leave other states.

 

[Colonial]

Out of curiosity - who is the biggest name player that the suns or giants have recruited to their club?? (Not including the start up teams where they got Ablett, Ward etc).

I think that’s their biggest issue, nobody wants to go there and play and leave other states.

Mumford, Shaw, Griffen, Deledio are/were all big names at the time. Mumford and Shaw continued to get AA once they came up.

Why not include players such as Ward, Scully, Davis Ablett etc? They are names and went there.

Giants mostly concentrate on drafting, but there's a few clubs out there that have struggled to being in big names. North and the Dogs are a couple. Though the Dogs got a big one when they offered millions for Boyd.

As for the Suns? Don't know their strategy. Seems to be more through the draft.

 

[WillHayward]

I highly doubt it.

I have told you this before, but you seem to always ignore it. The AFL currently runs at a $50m surplus and has cash reserves of about $200m. The AFL also derives a considerable amount of its revenue from non-TV sources (unlike most other comps such as the NRL).

There are a considerable amount of steps the AFL could take before cutting a team. Salary cap cuts (directly or indirectly by reducing on field numbers and list sizes), football department spending cuts, executive cuts, hard-capping football department spend and introducing taxes to richer clubs. That is just off the top of my head without even delving into it.

It is also reasonable to suspect that other disruptive forces are likely to come into negotiations to help bring the value of the media rights up. I suspect that neither the AFL or NRL are going to experience significant downturns (could be wrong), but more likely that more fringe sports with expensive deals to foxtel (such as soccer) are going to suffer.


The Swans over their first 7 seasons averaged home crowds of a bit under 16k. The Giants average a bit over 11k. The following 7 years the Swans averaged crowds of a bit over 11k (they actually averaged less over this period than the Giants have over their existence).

It took the Swans until about the mid 90s to consistently get good crowds.

The AFL stuck by them, and as a result they can comfortably claim to have the biggest professional sporting club in NSW. The decision to ensure the Swans survived has had massive positive outcomes for the AFL in NSW. Their crowds have barely even been impacted this season by poor form (which was a concern a lot of people had).

The AFL has already demonstrated how important it is to stick with these clubs over the long term. They know it will take (a lot of) time, but there is no way they will get rid of them any time in the next 50 years. Smaller Melbourne based clubs would be in far more danger over that time period.

Impressive post and logically sound. Appears quite sensible .
On the surface.

But if you think you can compare Sydney and the Gold Coast you are seriously delusional.

The geographic, economic and cultural differences are stark. Huge. A chasm. Non comparable.

If you think the AFL simply need to copy the Sydney story and blueprint for a repeat on the Gold Coast you are horribly mistaken.

 

[WillHayward]

Out of curiosity - who is the biggest name player that the suns or giants have recruited to their club?? (Not including the start up teams where they got Ablett, Ward etc).

I think that’s their biggest issue, nobody wants to go there and play and leave other states.

Deledio. Rischitelli. Harbrow. Boak.

A few gave it a go..

But you are right.
Not many have gone north in recent times.

Are mellennials Mummy's boys?

I would say a big YES.