- Jan 17, 2013
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This would also leave us with two first round picks and 3 second round picks.
List Mgmt. 2019 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy
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Why do we need to move all these experienced player out for cash?
- Jan 17, 2013
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Because we have so many younger players coming into their prime years.
You are arguing we trade out delist or retire FOUR best 22 players at seasons end!
I have no problem with bonnar moving on- we have a surplus in that position. Mumford should retire at seasons end as well but 4 players is a massive disruption
Yewwwwwww
- Jan 17, 2013
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Are you saying Shaw, Deledio and Mumford aren’t just about ready to retire?
Based on this year I would offer shaw and lids another year
Shaw played on de goey and grey the last two weeks... both team’s premier forwards
- Jan 17, 2013
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That’s where we differ. I think they’re both in decline. I’d rather use the money to retain our good young players.
- Nov 23, 2015
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- #411
Always need to project forward. I recall Stevie J getting his last year on the basis of a pretty good previous season - then being close to a basket case in that last year. I'm probably not as down on Heater as others - partly he's had a role change that accounts for some of his perceived downturn IMHO.
Ideally we win the flag this year, and Heater, Lids & Mummy happily ride off into the sunset. If not, I think Mummy is cooked, and we could afford to keep just one of Lids or Heater (but on reduced coin commensurate with likely reduced games played). Just need to work out who's most likely to contribute next season. Equally though, happy enough to pension off all 3 and focus on youth.
But then I wouldn't be pushing Tommo and Bonar out the door - I think there's still room for them on the roster, and think we need to limit the total off-season moves, especially when we have limited picks to replace them with.
Ideally we win the flag this year, and Heater, Lids & Mummy happily ride off into the sunset. If not, I think Mummy is cooked, and we could afford to keep just one of Lids or Heater (but on reduced coin commensurate with likely reduced games played). Just need to work out who's most likely to contribute next season. Equally though, happy enough to pension off all 3 and focus on youth.
But then I wouldn't be pushing Tommo and Bonar out the door - I think there's still room for them on the roster, and think we need to limit the total off-season moves, especially when we have limited picks to replace them with.
dlanod
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- Sep 14, 2006
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I love Heath's defensive work. It's some of the best of the competition's on small forwards. His offensive work is... offensive (couldn't resist), and he would not make the team with his kicking.
On the question of the over 30s on the list my thoughts are:
Deledio, Likely to retire with all the injuries he is likely one injury away from that and although he has played well this year I feel he hasnt had the explosiveness he had and he has lost the speed which I feel could be exposed if he plays on in 2020 even if he finishes this season well I think some of us thought Griffen could go on this year but I think he felt the time was right for him to retire. Also with the family and being from Melbourne a move back is likely imo
Mumford Definitely retire, he has been serviceable but is developing into a big liability with his lack of mobility and his style of play which incurs too many free kicks
Shaw at this stage he deserves a contract for 2020 but he does need to work on his kicking and I think his experience would be good for the back half and helping some of the defenders develop around him. He isnt close to Hodge but he is similar in terms of looking to use his smarts to defend and work other players into better positions. Of course this is dependant on how he finishes of the season and if he has the passion to go on and he has said he would likely retire if the club lifts the premiership
It would be good if the club could keep Tomlinson and Bonar but it comes down to what the player wants and SC, if Tomlinson gets a 5 year offer for 500k pa and the club is offering 2 years at 450k the longer contract gives him the better deal and I would be ok if he took it but he would be a loss for the club. Bonar needs to be getting opportunites and if the Giants cant offer him that then he should take the opportunity to see where he could get more opportunites for senior footy. These 2 I feel are dependant on what happens with Coniglio as the club would need Tomlinsons experience and Bonar could see an opportunity if Coniglio leaves and still a lot to happen between now and trade period starting
The other factor I feel that could impact is what offers TOJ gets from opposition clubs with him rumoured to be on 300k a club could come in with an offer of 600k which the club could not match imo and like Tomlinson he may fell like the time is right to cash in and this could also free up cash for a decent ruck which the club really hasnt had since Mumfords decline in 2017
Deledio, Likely to retire with all the injuries he is likely one injury away from that and although he has played well this year I feel he hasnt had the explosiveness he had and he has lost the speed which I feel could be exposed if he plays on in 2020 even if he finishes this season well I think some of us thought Griffen could go on this year but I think he felt the time was right for him to retire. Also with the family and being from Melbourne a move back is likely imo
Mumford Definitely retire, he has been serviceable but is developing into a big liability with his lack of mobility and his style of play which incurs too many free kicks
Shaw at this stage he deserves a contract for 2020 but he does need to work on his kicking and I think his experience would be good for the back half and helping some of the defenders develop around him. He isnt close to Hodge but he is similar in terms of looking to use his smarts to defend and work other players into better positions. Of course this is dependant on how he finishes of the season and if he has the passion to go on and he has said he would likely retire if the club lifts the premiership
It would be good if the club could keep Tomlinson and Bonar but it comes down to what the player wants and SC, if Tomlinson gets a 5 year offer for 500k pa and the club is offering 2 years at 450k the longer contract gives him the better deal and I would be ok if he took it but he would be a loss for the club. Bonar needs to be getting opportunites and if the Giants cant offer him that then he should take the opportunity to see where he could get more opportunites for senior footy. These 2 I feel are dependant on what happens with Coniglio as the club would need Tomlinsons experience and Bonar could see an opportunity if Coniglio leaves and still a lot to happen between now and trade period starting
The other factor I feel that could impact is what offers TOJ gets from opposition clubs with him rumoured to be on 300k a club could come in with an offer of 600k which the club could not match imo and like Tomlinson he may fell like the time is right to cash in and this could also free up cash for a decent ruck which the club really hasnt had since Mumfords decline in 2017
- Nov 23, 2015
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That's a pretty good summary there Giant Pete - I've just shuffled into main list (33) & rookie list (6) for subsequent discussion.
Tall Backs (7): Davis Corr Taylor Haynes Keeffe Idun Stein(R)
Small backs (6): Williams Kennedy Cumming Perryman Reid(R) Brown(R)
Mids (12): Ward Cogs Kelly Whitfield Taranto Hopper DeBoer Hately Caldwell O'Halloran Shipley Sheridan
Small Forwards (6): Greene Daniels Langdon Hill Lloyd DBuckley(R)
Tall Forwards (5): Cameron, Finlayson, HH, Sproule(R) JBuckley(R)
Rucks (3): Simpson, Briggs, Flynn (inj)
Thoughts:
- Gone are Deledio, Shaw, Patton, Tommo, Bonar, Buntine (was that intended?), Mumford(R)
- 33 main list leaves between 5 & 7 spots for the main draft, but if we upgraded 2 off the rookie list, then 3 to 5 - we would have (under this scenario losing Tommo & Bonar) likely 5 picks: 2 x 1R, 2 x 2R, 1 x 3R: so that's doable.
- There would also be between 1 & 3 rookie list spots depending on promotions. I don't see us cutting any of the rookie list.
- Whilst I can live with losing Tommo & Bonar, I am not convinced the trade value stacks up for the potential that Bonar may have, and while I wouldn't exactly low-ball Tommo, I'd keep him unless an outside offer was too expensive to match. I'd prefer to delist Sheridan than either of those. However - conversely - we probably have enough mids with Tom Green coming on so perhaps those losses might work for squad balance. Caldwell, O'Halloran, Hately & Shipley all provide running mids.
- If Patton departs, we suddenly become short of KPFs. Certainly couldn't afford to trade out Finlayson. We might add to the number by drafting Liam Delahunty, but I'm not convinced of his long-term potential; and with Flynn now out of action for the year I wouldn't be quick to push Patton out the door, or conversely holding onto Tommo.
- Although I'd like to exchange Keeffe for someone with higher skill levels, I think we continue to hold him for that dual KPD/emergency ruck role - but a primary ruckman is an absolute necessity this trade period (surely!?). We'd need Briggs to play primary ruck in NEAFL more often, sacrificing Simpson's game for the team good.
I think Shaw’s kicking is too harshly scrutinized. He is often kicking out of the back line under pressure and trying to force a throw in
What if I told you his kicking efficiency in 2019 is better than williams’ kicking efficiency? Cos it is
What if I told you his kicking efficiency in 2019 is better than williams’ kicking efficiency? Cos it is
dlanod
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- #416
I'd believe you because of Williams' congestion busting and now midfield-centric efforts compared to Shaw usually getting the ball into space - Williams averages almost twice as many contested possessions to Shaw this season.
Given what most of us lament is the kicks out on the full, the turnovers and the deliberate out of bounds, what if I told you that despite Williams getting more contested ball with a worse kicking efficiency, Shaw is still averaging a clanger more a game than Williams?
I wouldn’t trade Tomlinson unless he wanted to go, he’s a very important, durable and valuable player.
The more time passes the more I see guys that are externally important and guys that are internally important, Tommo is the latter.
What do I mean by that? Well Lachie Whitfield is our best player by a mile, he is both externally (and internally) a machine but this is obvious with anybody with a set of eyes, Cogs, Kelly, Greene, Cameron, Davis, Haynes etc the same.
Sam Reid in the other hand has almost zero external value. Most of us (myself leading the charge) have wondered about his selection (particularly ahead of young highly credentialed draftees) and the fact his stats often read poorly.
But if you dig deeper and see what he is asked to do by the coach and the fact he provides this consistently you reach the conclusion he is important.
When I see Tommo, I sometimes see him as cumbersome (still reckon he is 6-8kgs too heavy) sometimes makes a poor decision with kicking and sometimes not sure where he fits in but in reality he’s almost an impossible match up and has often stood tallest for us in big matches. He will rarely win 3 votes, but he will make his contribution and is also a great team man.
I really like him and like Haynes he is amongst my favourite players at the club. I think it would be a mistake to move him on, he’s more important than you think.
Oh no doubt he still makes errors
I’m just saying I think maybe it is unjust. Shaw also had a better kick efficiency than Williams before the tigers game so before he moved into the midfield
dlanod
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- #419
Williams was still getting more contested ball than Shaw before the midfield move too.
Actually I hope Shaw goes around again. I think he's best 22 just based off his defensive work. I just wish we had a true HPF option that works into space as aggressively as Shaw but more reliable by foot, even if they're a bit worse defensively.
At the start of the year he looked off the pace and I thought he might be cooked as his acceleration is a feature of his game.
In reality more than his age he was coming off a significant knee injury and that took a while for him to overcome.
He’s a funny player in that he is positionally so smart and almost like a coach on the field but he can also do the odd boneheaded elementary errors which as a defender usually result in goals.
I’m not confident we have got the player to replace him as Cumming is not as good and we didn’t get McGrath or Clark via the draft.
He’s on massive money so if he is prepared to take a pay cut and have a more incentive based deal I’d love for him to go around again. The ball is probably in his court.
- Jan 17, 2013
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The risk they take on their kicks is very different. How many more times do you think Shaw has kicked it out on the full?
Oh of course- nobody can ignore that he does that. I would also argue when we are under pressure and kicking it out of the backline we are finding him to have that responsibility more often than not.
But if you want to look at disposal, his disposal efficiency (76.5) is outstanding when you compare to some of the other key names:
Whitfield (76.2)
williams (74.1)
Kade Simpson (78)
Nathan Wilson (73.3)
Zac Tuohy (75.7)
Hamish Hartlett (73.6)
I added whitfield in there just because we would regard him as the best kick in the club but the others are all first choice half back flankers across the league with similar averages.
Heater is also in the top 5 for one percenters in the club as well as leading the rebound 50's by a staggering 40 rebounds.
I understand he kicks it out on the full. I get it. But look beyond that and you will see he is having an outstanding season... which is simply my point.
Heater’s issue is not hitting a target - he does that more often than not. Heater’s issue is that when he misses, I’m the one who marks it 6 rows back in the stands. It’s not that he misses, so much as he misses spectacularly and memorably. He might only miss a target three times in a game, but boy, those three...
Perception vs reality
Perception vs reality
Good lad
- Apr 12, 2012
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Awesome
Good lad
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