Preview Politics in Australia

[Gethelred]

I didn't use the term neo-conservatism, I spoke of neo-liberalism. The terms are apples and oranges.

Recognising China's sovereignty was like legitimising an evil Tyrant. Plenty of blood money in those deals.

Recognising China in the '70's was legitimizing an evil tyrant?

We're all sinners now. Every single human born is descended from cuthroats, barbarians and killers. Over a third of the population in the world descends from Ghenghis Khan.

And the terms - in terms of what both political institutions accomplish when in power - are not apples and oranges; more granny smiths and red delicious.

I called him Australia's Thatcher because he privatised, took on the unions and allowed for more free markets and trades that turned around the nations fortunes, just like Thatcher did at the same time.

Did he not do those things?

He was more like Thatcher than Fraser was that's for sure.

That's akin to saying that Thatcher was more like Jesus than Hitler was; true, but still very misleading.

Fraser's achievements in office are limited to the establishment of the SBS, and the admittance of Vietnamese refugees; he ran into considerable opposition from within his own party for the latter. As a PM, he was a staunch multiculturalist, often to the displeasure of his colleagues; however, he attacked and defunded the ABC, hitting them with what is now a familiar refrain, 'biased'; makes you wonder why he created another government broadcaster, no?

He is overshadowed by what he did prior to office, and his role in dethroning a prime minister. He was very much a traditional Liberal PM, outside of his multiculturalism, in that he mostly governed quietly and allowed things to continue as they had prior to Whitlam.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

 

[Bostonian]

Recognising China in the '70's was legitimizing an evil tyrant?

We're all sinners now. Every single human born is descended from cuthroats, barbarians and killers. Over a third of the population in the world descends from Ghenghis Khan.

Chinese communists, pieces of s**t. Still are.

And the terms - in terms of what both political institutions accomplish when in power - are not apples and oranges; more granny smiths and red delicious.

The major difference is one does not wish to achieve it through death and destruction. That's a rather large difference.

That's akin to saying that Thatcher was more like Jesus than Hitler was; true, but still very misleading.

Comparing similar methods between the two at a similar period in times does not equate to anything misleading. Both knew the power of the unions was holding progress and growth back. Both did something about it.

They can have similarities in one area while at the same time having differences in others.

Fraser's achievements in office are limited to the establishment of the SBS, and the admittance of Vietnamese refugees; he ran into considerable opposition from within his own party for the latter. As a PM, he was a staunch multiculturalist, often to the displeasure of his colleagues; however, he attacked and defunded the ABC, hitting them with what is now a familiar refrain, 'biased'; makes you wonder why he created another government broadcaster, no?

He is overshadowed by what he did prior to office, and his role in dethroning a prime minister. He was very much a traditional Liberal PM, outside of his multiculturalism, in that he mostly governed quietly and allowed things to continue as they had prior to Whitlam.

Fraser was the enemy of the left and the right back then. He was the last true Liberal leader of the Liberal Party. Mick Dodson said as much.

SBS was created for the multicultural element of Australia. It's initial content wasn't anything like the ABC's.

The ABC is biased many a time. I can see that with my own cynical dislike them all eyes.

 

[Gethelred]

Chinese communists, pieces of s**t. Still are.




The major difference is one does not wish to achieve it through death and destruction. That's a rather large difference.





Comparing similar methods between the two at a similar period in times does not equate to anything misleading. Both knew the power of the unions was holding progress and growth back. Both did something about it.

They can have similarities in one area while at the same time having differences in others.




Fraser was the enemy of the left and the right back then. He was the last true Liberal leader of the Liberal Party. Mick Dodson said as much.

SBS was created for the multicultural element of Australia. It's initial content wasn't anything like the ABC's.

The ABC is biased many a time. I can see that with my own cynical dislike them all eyes.

I'm going to get off this particular conversation with this: how on EARTH do you come by your opinion of Chinese communists? One would hope honestly, because any attempt to create a catalogue of their ill doings can be met with a like version that either the US or Australia has either been complicit to or actively a part of.

 

[Bostonian]

I'm going to get off this particular conversation with this: how on EARTH do you come by your opinion of Chinese communists? One would hope honestly, because any attempt to create a catalogue of their ill doings can be met with a like version that either the US or Australia has either been complicit to or actively a part of.

I don't believe we've had anything like the history of China when it comes to human deaths due to political regimes.

Mao was good for 45 million alone. Mao was an utter piece of s**t. Up there with Hitler, Stalin etc

Don't know why anyone would bother trying to defend them

 

[Gethelred]

I don't believe we've had anything like the history of China when it comes to human deaths due to political regimes.

Mao was good for 45 million alone. Mao was an utter piece of s**t. Up there with Hitler, Stalin etc

Don't know why anyone would bother trying to defend them

Here's my issue; Mao was undoubtedly a shocking human, as was Hitler and Stalin, and I'm in no way defending them when I'm saying that despising just Chinese communists - even if you broaden it to communists - because their regimes lock people up without cause or kill people for political reasons, don't allow free votes or do not share democratic values is demonstrating extreme tunnel vision, if not selective memory.

The US have sponsored dictators and religious hardliners throughout modern history, imprisoned Japanese Americans during World War 2, and during the Trail of Tears marched hundreds of thousands of native Americans from the west to the east, killing a good 90% of them in the process. The british via their East India trading company exploited and waged war on a scale unprecedented in human history, on a profiteering basis and out of a sense of innate superiority. Australians have murdered or bred out ever living Tasmanian indigenous person, deliberately gave the blankets of smallpox victims to aboriginals as they noticed that the native Australians were more susceptible to the disease.

Malcolm Fraser - remember him - recognised the occupation of East and West Timor by the Indonesians, in which the population was wholesale massacred in order to pacify it. This particular genocide when compared to the Cambodian genocide - as the two occurred at almost the same time - was nearly ignored, despite have near on twice the death toll, as US government interests were selling weapons to the Indonesian government.

Which brings me back to what I was saying originally. We're all sinners, liars and bastards if we're responsible for the deeds of our forebears. An attachment to one system or ideology as 'good' and another as 'evil' is deeply foolish, as it blinds you completely.

 

[Gethelred]

And, if we weren't to trade with anyone who'd been a rat bastard in the past, we'd be more isolationist than North Korea.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

I know it’s been a long day but the topic of discussion is Politics in Australia. If you wish you can start one on international relations. Another one of my interests.

 

[Bostonian]

Here's my issue; Mao was undoubtedly a shocking human, as was Hitler and Stalin, and I'm in no way defending them when I'm saying that despising just Chinese communists - even if you broaden it to communists - because their regimes lock people up without cause or kill people for political reasons, don't allow free votes or do not share democratic values is demonstrating extreme tunnel vision, if not selective memory.

The US have sponsored dictators and religious hardliners throughout modern history, imprisoned Japanese Americans during World War 2, and during the Trail of Tears marched hundreds of thousands of native Americans from the west to the east, killing a good 90% of them in the process. The british via their East India trading company exploited and waged war on a scale unprecedented in human history, on a profiteering basis and out of a sense of innate superiority. Australians have murdered or bred out ever living Tasmanian indigenous person, deliberately gave the blankets of smallpox victims to aboriginals as they noticed that the native Australians were more susceptible to the disease.

Malcolm Fraser - remember him - recognised the occupation of East and West Timor by the Indonesians, in which the population was wholesale massacred in order to pacify it. This particular genocide when compared to the Cambodian genocide - as the two occurred at almost the same time - was nearly ignored, despite have near on twice the death toll, as US government interests were selling weapons to the Indonesian government.

Which brings me back to what I was saying originally. We're all sinners, liars and bastards if we're responsible for the deeds of our forebears. An attachment to one system or ideology as 'good' and another as 'evil' is deeply foolish, as it blinds you completely.

And yet we have these Chinese Communist shitlords in our country trying to intimidate and influence.

UQ students 'shocked' by intimidation tactics in China-Hong Kong protest clash - ABC News

www.google.com

This is happening in Australia in 2019.

All the rubbish over fake Russian influence in the US elections yet we have in our own region China openly trying to destabilise nations and spread it's slimy ways outwardly.

This impacts us.

 

[Blue and Blue]

And yet we have these Chinese Communist s**tlords in our country trying to intimidate and influence.

UQ students 'shocked' by intimidation tactics in China-Hong Kong protest clash - ABC News

www.google.com

This is happening in Australia in 2019.

All the rubbish over fake Russian influence in the US elections yet we have in our own region China openly trying to destabilise nations and spread it's slimy ways outwardly.

This impacts us.

You can always emigrate..........

 

[Bostonian]

You can always emigrate..........

That's all you have to say about these Chinese scum? Suggest the people who were born here should leave and let the commie *s do as they please?

A student attended a protest at an Australian uni. Days later Chinese officials visited his family

Apparent intimidation tactics suggest the Chinese government carried out surveillance during the demonstration at the University of Queensland.

www.google.com

You're happy these Chinese government backed groups that have influence in our universities?

'We cannot be seen': the fallout from the University of Queensland's Hong Kong protests

Fallout from the protests highlights China’s reach into foreign universities through cultural programs

www.theguardian.com

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Pushing the boundaries of truthfulness.

Are more than 90 per cent of Newstart recipients receiving other benefits?

Amid calls to raise the Newstart Allowance, Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says that over 90 per cent of recipients receive other benefits, including the Parenting Payment and Rent Assistance. RMIT ABC Fact Check runs the numbers.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Gethelred]

And yet we have these Chinese Communist s**tlords in our country trying to intimidate and influence.

UQ students 'shocked' by intimidation tactics in China-Hong Kong protest clash - ABC News

www.google.com

This is happening in Australia in 2019.

All the rubbish over fake Russian influence in the US elections yet we have in our own region China openly trying to destabilise nations and spread it's slimy ways outwardly.

This impacts us.

... which is different to the CIA sponsoring Augusto Pinochet's coup in Chile, overthrowing the left wing democracy to replace it with a dictatorship how exactly? Oh, right, actually overthrowing a government and resulting in a dictator who murdered and tortured people is significantly worse than election tampering. Or how, in 1953, the CIA initiated Operation Ajax and overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran, after said government started to tighten control over their oil reserves, and the general in charge of the coup made of himself the Shah of Iran; that monarchy was overthrown in 1979, which turned the country from a monarchy to a theocracy under Sharia law, which it remains under to this day.

What of the CIA elements that surrounded John Kerr, the second that Whitlam sought to question the Pine Gap military base?

The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger

John Pilger: In 1975 prime minister Gough Whitlam, who has died this week, dared to try to assert his country’s autonomy. The CIA and MI6 made sure he paid the price

www.theguardian.com

China is doing nothing America hasn't been doing for a century. Again, railing against such things whilst ignoring others is pointless, and creates a situation where you as a country cannot trade with anyone because of the dastardly things they've done in the past.

 

[Gethelred]

Pushing the boundaries of truthfulness.

Are more than 90 per cent of Newstart recipients receiving other benefits?

Amid calls to raise the Newstart Allowance, Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says that over 90 per cent of recipients receive other benefits, including the Parenting Payment and Rent Assistance. RMIT ABC Fact Check runs the numbers.

www.abc.net.au

As misleading as - well - the other bloke in here.

Most on the Newstart are indeed on other payments, but that's largely because a) they qualify for them, and b) because without being on stuff like Rent Assist, you cannot live on the newstart and rent, or eat, or see the doctor.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

... which is different to the CIA sponsoring Augusto Pinochet's coup in Chile, overthrowing the left wing democracy to replace it with a dictatorship how exactly? Oh, right, actually overthrowing a government and resulting in a dictator who murdered and tortured people is significantly worse than election tampering. Or how, in 1953, the CIA initiated Operation Ajax and overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran, after said government started to tighten control over their oil reserves, and the general in charge of the coup made of himself the Shah of Iran; that monarchy was overthrown in 1979, which turned the country from a monarchy to a theocracy under Sharia law, which it remains under to this day.

What of the CIA elements that surrounded John Kerr, the second that Whitlam sought to question the Pine Gap military base?

The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger

John Pilger: In 1975 prime minister Gough Whitlam, who has died this week, dared to try to assert his country’s autonomy. The CIA and MI6 made sure he paid the price

www.theguardian.com

China is doing nothing America hasn't been doing for a century. Again, railing against such things whilst ignoring others is pointless, and creates a situation where you as a country cannot trade with anyone because of the dastardly things they've done in the past.

I’ll let this one through because it mentions Edward Gough Whitlam. This is the worst abuse of the democratic process that has occurred in Australia’s history. And who hatched it beside the meddling overseas interests. The Conservatives. Nothing has been done to prevent this from happening again.

PS. Pinochet was a murderer who was never punished for his crimes. Good one U.S.of A.

 

[Bostonian]

... which is different to the CIA sponsoring Augusto Pinochet's coup in Chile, overthrowing the left wing democracy to replace it with a dictatorship how exactly? Oh, right, actually overthrowing a government and resulting in a dictator who murdered and tortured people is significantly worse than election tampering. Or how, in 1953, the CIA initiated Operation Ajax and overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran, after said government started to tighten control over their oil reserves, and the general in charge of the coup made of himself the Shah of Iran; that monarchy was overthrown in 1979, which turned the country from a monarchy to a theocracy under Sharia law, which it remains under to this day.

What of the CIA elements that surrounded John Kerr, the second that Whitlam sought to question the Pine Gap military base?

The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger

John Pilger: In 1975 prime minister Gough Whitlam, who has died this week, dared to try to assert his country’s autonomy. The CIA and MI6 made sure he paid the price

www.theguardian.com

China is doing nothing America hasn't been doing for a century. Again, railing against such things whilst ignoring others is pointless, and creates a situation where you as a country cannot trade with anyone because of the dastardly things they've done in the past.

This is a thread about Australia however focusing on Australian politics in 2019. This issue is involving Australian politicians and relations with China.

You're waffling on about things that are in the past and have no relevance to this current situation.

I'd be happy to sell our resources elsewhere and tell China to go * themselves.

Time the world started standing up to that dictatorship.

Why would you even bother trying to defend these s**t lords with whataboutism?

 

[Robbo's my hero]

 

[Kwality]

Who knows.

I was merely laughing at your historically incorrect point they don't do the big ticket items.

When actual history shows they have.

Menzies - Indigenous Vote
Holt - Migration Act 1966 and the White Australia Policy
Howard - Gun reform
Turnball - Gay marriage

The big ticket item that went thru to the keeper was the Hewson tax reform package - it was total reform, start again stuff, we continue to use a renamed Tax Act from the 1920s as amended.
The victim in the last election was Mr Shorten & it was just more amendments dressed as reform & rejected far by much more than Hewson.
Disappointed by Keatings part in both, pretty dishonest & not unusual as he was on again, off again on the GST - at least Howard had the cohunas to take it to the people. Again win 2019 he's on again, off again with Shorten.

We get the politicians we deserve .

 

[Gethelred]

This is a thread about Australia however focusing on Australian politics in 2019. This issue is involving Australian politicians and relations with China.

You're waffling on about things that are in the past and have no relevance to this current situation.

I'd be happy to sell our resources elsewhere and tell China to go fu** themselves.

Time the world started standing up to that dictatorship.

Why would you even bother trying to defend these s**t lords with whataboutism?

My amusement at the fact that you were perfectly happy to derail the thread and be irrelevant right up until you ran into things you couldn't argue with not withstanding, my issue is rather clear, as I've said it twice already.

This began with your desire to denigrade Whitlam's recognition of China - in the '70's, not the 50's or the 60's - because they're communists and mistreated their citizenry; my point is very much that if we reduced our trade/alliance relationships down only to those that have never done anything wrong ever, our only partner would - perhaps - be New Zealand. Not irrelevant in any way whatsoever, nor are they whataboutisms if they are directly relevant to the argument at hand, nor am I defending jack s**t. Neat attempt at misrepresentation, though.

Or should I start suggest that we should withdraw from the ANZUS treaty, because of America's track record with interfering with elections abroad? Your argument is essentially the same, albeit thrown at a different direction. It's an ignorance of the past - something that you're demonstrating - that leads to mistakes and catastrophes in the future, which is why the degree to which you are wrong needs to be corrected.

You're being irrational concerning China, because you're determined to see them as villains. This has direct bearing on your interpretation of those protests, and of China's relationship with Australia overall.

 

[Kwality]

I’ll let this one through because it mentions Edward Gough Whitlam

Voted Gough in, voted Gough out & very happy both decisions were correct.
Married 1973, saw the rampant inflation every fortnight my dearly beloved & I went food shopping.
Margaret jumped off a plane with Gough, told us Australians inflation was a lot of hoo-ha ... took a closer look at Gough & found he was looking like a taller version of Billy McMahon sans ears, cheered when Kerr did the doing, voted him out.
Smile at revisionist history, he was voted out, thats what democracies do.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Voted Gough in, voted Gough out & very happy both decisions were correct.
Married 1973, saw the rampant inflation every fortnight my dearly beloved & I went food shopping.
Margaret jumped off a plane with Gough, told us Australians inflation was a lot of hoo-ha ... took a closer look at Gough & found he was looking like a taller version of Billy McMahon sans ears, cheered when Kerr did the doing, voted him out.
Smile at revisionist history, he was voted out, thats what democracies do.

What’s revisionist about this? The process of the Government being sacked was undemocratic. Could happen again. You mightn’t like the result next time

 

[Kwality]

Happy with the effect not the cause that consumes some - the tribe spoke to the ballot box.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Happy with the effect not the cause that consumes some - the tribe spoke to the ballot box.

Ah yes. My sweet Prince. Did you live your life based on the same principle?

 

[Kwality]

Ah yes. My sweet Prince. Did you live your life based on the same principle?

Margaret gave me & mine the two fingers, Goughs government was as bad as McMahons, thats why the Aus people democratically voted him out, seems you say we were not entitled to our vote/opinion, technically I agree, even still, see ya Gough, the mess the Govt was in was of Goughs making & enough was enough.
Close the stable door Robbo, the horse has bolted.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Are we trending? S

Margaret gave me & mine the two fingers, Goughs government was as bad as McMahons, thats why the Aus people democratically voted him out, seems you say we were not entitled to our vote/opinion, technically I agree, even still, see ya Gough, the mess the Govt was in was of Goughs making & enough was enough.
Close the stable door Robbo, the horse has bolted.

It’s funny that you want to mire yourself in the past and pat yourself on the back for doing the right thing. I think you should inform yourself because the effects of that Government are still well and truly entrenched in this country. Go and read and get your head around what actually happened. An Eagles supporter in Tootgarook.

Gough Whitlam left a long list of achievements

Gough Whitlam is perhaps best known for the manner in which he prematurely exited from power rather than how he chose to wield it

www.smh.com.au