Hawks to exit Tassie after 2023?

[Hawkk]

I’m talking about crowd and membership only not position of list.

If you want that comparison 2003 is probably a more age appropriate comparison (and it’s even more favourable indicating growth)

As for the AFL they are keen as mustard to bring Hawthorn back to Melbourne and would love for us to take Docklands games...

For what’s its worth I think we should be more pragmatic with the AFL and do a deal for an MCG / Docklands split...our attendances at Docklands for our now regular home game aren’t even that bad.

As for comparisons between Hawthorn and other big Victorian clubs, every club is different but if you look at our opponents, and the schedule of our games in the timeslots that they are allocated I think you’ll be surprised to find that our numbers don’t stake up too poorly against the big 4 (although remember we are still a step behind Coll / ESS / Rich in baseline Victorian support)

You’ll be surprised looking at the numbers subtle differences and nuances in scheduling such as a 1.10pm Sunday game v 3.20pm Sunday game can make for attendances.

That brings me to another point. It’s clear that Hawthorn’s membership base (with substantial outposts in SEQ, WA, SA and of course Tasmania) is much more national then many other Victorian clubs.

So I think to say that we have 80,000 members but only 30,000 show up to most Melbourne games (and perhaps 8,000 in Tasmania) is overly simplistic. There are extrapolating circumstances.

What I do think is clear is that in 2019 Hawthorn’s baseline is substantially larger then 15 years ago and when we get decent timeslots our attendances are very good

 

[Pessimistic]

Theres another couple of things which have changed since

- The afl agreement with the vic govt docklands and mcg which has reportedly significantly increased the profitability for games played here
- The various footy taxes etc which penalise very profitable clubs and redirect some of that hard earned tassie money to clubs who dont sacrifice home games

If the AFL were to negotiate hawks out of tassie, could the agreement also include better access for hawks fans to away games in nsw qld sa and perth? Our memebership seems to be spread around.

I also think if we leave and footy continues to be played in tassie, we will be still drawn to play there quite often

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I’m talking about crowd and membership only not position of list.

If you want that comparison 2003 is probably a more age appropriate comparison (and it’s even more favourable indicating growth)

As for the AFL they are keen as mustard to bring Hawthorn back to Melbourne and would love for us to take Docklands games...

For what’s its worth I think we should be more pragmatic with the AFL and do a deal for an MCG / Docklands split...our attendances at Docklands for our now regular home game aren’t even that bad.

As for comparisons between Hawthorn and other big Victorian clubs, every club is different but if you look at our opponents, and the schedule of our games in the timeslots that they are allocated I think you’ll be surprised to find that our numbers don’t stake up too poorly against the big 4 (although remember we are still a step behind Coll / ESS / Rich in baseline Victorian support)

You’ll be surprised looking at the numbers subtle differences and nuances in scheduling such as a 1.10pm Sunday game v 3.20pm Sunday game can make for attendances.

That brings me to another point. It’s clear that Hawthorn’s membership base (with substantial outposts in SEQ, WA, SA and of course Tasmania) is much more national then many other Victorian clubs.

So I think to say that we have 80,000 members but only 30,000 show up to most Melbourne games (and perhaps 8,000 in Tasmania) is overly simplistic. There are extrapolating circumstances.

What I do think is clear is that in 2019 Hawthorn’s baseline is substantially larger then 15 years ago and when we get decent timeslots our attendances are very good

Happy to respond to the other stuff when I have more time to actually digest all the figures - however the bolded section is speculative at best. I can only offer a rebuttal from empirical evidence - however when I went to games at the Gabba both Richmond and Collingwood have large supporter bases in Brisbane. Collingwood tend to draw well in Sydney from memory also. I am fairly certain that both clubs would have rather decent national support bases.

 

[Hawkk]

Happy to respond to the other stuff when I have more time to actually digest all the figures - however the bolded section is speculative at best. I can only offer a rebuttal from empirical evidence - however when I went to games at the Gabba both Richmond and Collingwood have large supporter bases in Brisbane. Collingwood tend to draw well in Sydney from memory also. I am fairly certain that both clubs would have rather decent national support bases.

I’m not addressing Collingwood and Richmond specifically (although our SEQ crowds in recent years, in terms of total attendance, have been substantial and higher then average Lions / Suns crowds generally) but that was a more general observation compared to all Victorian clubs.

Obviously the bigger Victorian clubs all have national support bases

 

[Hawkk]

Theres another couple of things which have changed since

- The afl agreement with the vic govt docklands and mcg which has reportedly significantly increased the profitability for games played here
- The various footy taxes etc which penalise very profitable clubs and redirect some of that hard earned tassie money to clubs who dont sacrifice home games

If the AFL were to negotiate hawks out of tassie, could the agreement also include better access for hawks fans to away games in nsw qld sa and perth? Our memebership seems to be spread around.

I also think if we leave and footy continues to be played in tassie, we will be still drawn to play there quite often

Correct. That’s another thing we don’t factor when it comes to Tasmania. Obviously we get the clean stadium which is worth a lot to the club, plus the major naming rights partnership (however it’s an unknown what we could negotiate with a commercial partner once we leave) but Hawthon is taxed in the top quartile of AFL clubs and receives the minimum distribution from the AFL.

This is an obvious factor to consider when looking at our viability post Tasmania

 

[hawker11]

2018 average home game attendances at the MCG

Hawthorn: 45,671
Richmond, 61,940
Collingwood 53,056

2019 average home game attendances at the MCG

Hawthorn: 42,471
Richmond: 70,745
Collingwood: 62,444

Not being a defeatist - just looking at the cold hard facts. There's a reason our club president was imploring fans to come out to games. Our attendances are a joke. Demanding more home games when people won't even turn up to the ones we have now is a bit rich.

Then take a look at who we played and when we played them. The Hawks hold their own.

 

[Noneedforaname]

13k was the official attendance at the footy today. I havent seen enough of the game, or read the matchday thread to argue otherwise, but in listening to Brayshaw on MMM (yes, i selected ABC on the AFL app, and kept getting that flog amongst others ...) he was quite adamant that at ALL Hawks games at Launy, the crowd are double counted.
Sour grapes from a North flog telling Porkies to big up his own team at Blundstone? Or is it the official line from the AFL now, with a touch of his relish?
Pretty poor either way, but only to be expected. How he ever gets to head up a tv show, or commentary team just has me beat. He's never been more than a passenger making up the numbers with anything hes ever done. Hope the Roos are relocated down there. And fail dismally.

To be fair I’m not sure it’s a reasonable comparison with Richmond and Collingwood (the last two grand finalists)

We have been in decline since the 2016 QF, a better comparison would probably be our MCG home and away crowds in the 2012-16 period

Not sure if Ned or someone else addressed this already, but these lines highlight more than ever why we need to continue to try and hold on to Tassie. Tassie will financially underwrite us whether we are performing in finals are not. The crowds, since the 2016 PF, as you point out have already dropped off. Not too many surprises there, but if we are banking on a financial bottom line depending on us returning to Grand Final action (and the associated financial, membership and attendance windfalls) we may be caught short.
This is about financial security at one of the most vulnerable times in our history. Dingelly isnt going to be built by passing the hat round or volunteers, we need the financial certainty and security of Tassie to help underwrite our financial future.
Unless we can guarantee attendances at the G, and clearly they are at the mercy of an apparently uncooperative, unsupportive head office. Or, we can hold our position, and the AFL can compensate us, I really dont see how we can do without.
Remove the Dingelly project from the picture, and Id be a lot more agreeable to the argument. Crowds could still be better, but we wouldnt be so potentially vulnerable.

Editted to add. No disrespect to the Tassie Hawks members and fans. Just trying to keep the argument purely financial.

 

[Hawkk]

13k was the official attendance at the footy today. I havent seen enough of the game, or read the matchday thread to argue otherwise, but in listening to Brayshaw on MMM (yes, i selected ABC on the AFL app, and kept getting that flog amongst others ...) he was quite adamant that at ALL Hawks games at Launy, the crowd are double counted.
Sour grapes from a North flog telling Porkies to big up his own team at Blundstone? Or is it the official line from the AFL now, with a touch of his relish?
Pretty poor either way, but only to be expected. How he ever gets to head up a tv show, or commentary team just has me beat. He's never been more than a passenger making up the numbers with anything hes ever done. Hope the Roos are relocated down there. And fail dismally.

Agreed, I thought that the crowd was actually quite good. It was one of rare occasions where our crowds in Launceston have actually improved against the same opponent compared to previous seasons.

North crowds are increasingly in the gutter in Hobart which is alarming given they’ve only been in the market for 10 years. Our crowds really only started dropping in 2012 (12 years after we entered the market and 2 years after North took the south from us)

With a much more attractive draw (in terms of Tasmanian games) North is toast...

Not sure if Ned or someone else addressed this already, but these lines highlight more than ever why we need to continue to try and hold on to Tassie. Tassie will financially underwrite us whether we are performing in finals are not. The crowds, since the 2016 PF, as you point out have already dropped off. Not too many surprises there, but if we are banking on a financial bottom line depending on us returning to Grand Final action (and the associated financial, membership and attendance windfalls) we may be caught short.

I'm not saying that at all...

What I am saying is that every club has a floor and a ceiling and depending on where they fall in the cycle (on the field) every club circulates between...

What I was saying is that our floor, ceiling and every where in between has clearly grown considerably over the last 20 years and the off field position, its share of the marketplace and membership base is significantly stronger today then it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

This is about financial security at one of the most vulnerable times in our history.

It's also the strongest financial position the club has ever been in...

According to the 2018 Annual Report, we currently have $51,592,957 in net assets and have made year on year consecutive profits since 1997.

We are only in a potentially vulnerable position due to the club's intention to take on the largest club infrastructure project in AFL history and its arguable whether or not the club should be taking that project on anyway (do we even have the required skill set at board level or in our administration to pull this project off?)

Dingelly isnt going to be built by passing the hat round or volunteers, we need the financial certainty and security of Tassie to help underwrite our financial future.

And to be honest, if we are banking on the continuation of Tasmania long term when the AFL and the Tasmanian government has flagged interest previously in the relocation of North Melbourne (2010) and have recently developed a task force to look at the financial viability of a standalone team our administration is incompetent.

Our exit from Tasmania has been on the cards for an extremely long period of time (certainly predating our interest in leaving Waverley Park), and Jeff Kennett of all people have spoken about this at length.

As good a football club we are, and as financially robust a club as we are, we are prone to make some howling mistakes.

Look no further then our previous CEO selection and our AFLW application (which I think will be a white elephant in the long term anyway, notwithstanding...)

Unless we can guarantee attendances at the G, and clearly they are at the mercy of an apparently uncooperative, unsupportive head office.

Like I've said, our crowds are pretty competitive.

Richmond drew 39,000 against GWS on Sunday and they are in the peak of their powers. A middling Hawthorn, not playing in the Sunday twilight slot, on Mothers Day drew 32,000 against West Coast in the rain.

Aside from GWS all our Melbourne based crowds have been respectable this season and we are every chance to draw our fourth 60,000 crowd this Sunday for the season.

As I said back in 2007 it was almost unheard of for Hawthorn to draw 60,000 to any game that wasn't an Essendon or Collingwood on Preliminary Final (or Grand Final) day.

Or, we can hold our position, and the AFL can compensate us, I really dont see how we can do without.

I agree,

My support for Tasmanian switched in 2010 when the AFL came to us with a compensation package to leave Tasmania for North Melbourne.

At the time Jeff Kennett in his weekly 'letter from the president' section claimed that the compensation package was financially better for the club then staying in Tasmania but nonetheless we decided to stay.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we had incredible bargaining power to lock in a strong stadium deal in 2010 and imagine our continued growth in Melbourne all through the three-peat years.

I just think the longer we leave it and the poorer our bargaining (especially with such a large infrastructure project in the pipeline unfunded by government) we leave ourselves ever more vulnerable when we finally get turfed from Tasmania in 2022 or 2027.

Remove the Dingelly project from the picture, and Id be a lot more agreeable to the argument. Crowds could still be better, but we wouldnt be so potentially vulnerable.

Editted to add. No disrespect to the Tassie Hawks members and fans. Just trying to keep the argument purely financial.

I agree,

It does beg the question why are we even embarking on Dingley in the first place?

If it's a matter of club facilities only, surely we can opt for a scaled down project, reduce the risk and invest reserves in investment opportunities that generate income and offset Tasmanian and pokies revenue.

As it stands we are seemingly putting our eggs in the Tasmania and pokies baskets and it only takes a change of political will for the club to be vulnerable (unnecessarily) to attacks on key revenue streams.

Just my two cents though...

 

[Mr Taswegian]

The game in Launceston today got just over 15000,the crowds in Launceston have actually been pretty good this year,considering the ordinary fixture.

 

[Pessimistic]

The game in Launceston today got just over 15000,the crowds in Launceston have actually been pretty good this year,considering the ordinary fixture.

Good turnout for brisbane, and a couple of school groups there. Was there a curtain raiser?

 

[Pessimistic]

Agreed, I thought that the crowd was actually quite good. It was one of rare occasions where our crowds in Launceston have actually improved against the same opponent compared to previous seasons.

North crowds are increasingly in the gutter in Hobart which is alarming given they’ve only been in the market for 10 years. Our crowds really only started dropping in 2012 (12 years after we entered the market and 2 years after North took the south from us)

With a much more attractive draw (in terms of Tasmanian games) North is toast...




I'm not saying that at all...

What I am saying is that every club has a floor and a ceiling and depending on where they fall in the cycle (on the field) every club circulates between...

What I was saying is that our floor, ceiling and every where in between has clearly grown considerably over the last 20 years and the off field position, its share of the marketplace and membership base is significantly stronger today then it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago.



It's also the strongest financial position the club has ever been in...

According to the 2018 Annual Report, we currently have $51,592,957 in net assets and have made year on year consecutive profits since 1997.

We are only in a potentially vulnerable position due to the club's intention to take on the largest club infrastructure project in AFL history and its arguable whether or not the club should be taking that project on anyway (do we even have the required skill set at board level or in our administration to pull this project off?)



And to be honest, if we are banking on the continuation of Tasmania long term when the AFL and the Tasmanian government has flagged interest previously in the relocation of North Melbourne (2010) and have recently developed a task force to look at the financial viability of a standalone team our administration is incompetent.

Our exit from Tasmania has been on the cards for an extremely long period of time (certainly predating our interest in leaving Waverley Park), and Jeff Kennett of all people have spoken about this at length.

As good a football club we are, and as financially robust a club as we are, we are prone to make some howling mistakes.

Look no further then our previous CEO selection and our AFLW application (which I think will be a white elephant in the long term anyway, notwithstanding...)



Like I've said, our crowds are pretty competitive.

Richmond drew 39,000 against GWS on Sunday and they are in the peak of their powers. A middling Hawthorn, not playing in the Sunday twilight slot, on Mothers Day drew 32,000 against West Coast in the rain.

Aside from GWS all our Melbourne based crowds have been respectable this season and we are every chance to draw our fourth 60,000 crowd this Sunday for the season.

As I said back in 2007 it was almost unheard of for Hawthorn to draw 60,000 to any game that wasn't an Essendon or Collingwood on Preliminary Final (or Grand Final) day.



I agree,

My support for Tasmanian switched in 2010 when the AFL came to us with a compensation package to leave Tasmania for North Melbourne.

At the time Jeff Kennett in his weekly 'letter from the president' section claimed that the compensation package was financially better for the club then staying in Tasmania but nonetheless we decided to stay.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we had incredible bargaining power to lock in a strong stadium deal in 2010 and imagine our continued growth in Melbourne all through the three-peat years.

I just think the longer we leave it and the poorer our bargaining (especially with such a large infrastructure project in the pipeline unfunded by government) we leave ourselves ever more vulnerable when we finally get turfed from Tasmania in 2022 or 2027.



I agree,

It does beg the question why are we even embarking on Dingley in the first place?

If it's a matter of club facilities only, surely we can opt for a scaled down project, reduce the risk and invest reserves in investment opportunities that generate income and offset Tasmanian and pokies revenue.

As it stands we are seemingly putting our eggs in the Tasmania and pokies baskets and it only takes a change of political will for the club to be vulnerable (unnecessarily) to attacks on key revenue streams.

Just my two cents though...

The pollies suck harder on the pokies teat than we do, so that seems unlikely

 

[Hawkk]

Interesting that our 4 best home game turnouts so far have arguably been our last 4 home games...

31,895 v West Coast (MCG)
13,006 v Fremantle (Tasmania)
66,807 v Collingwood (MCG)
15,157 v Brisbane (Tasmania)

3 of those games were 1.45pm Saturday games and the other was our single Friday Night MCG game.

Our 5 other home games have been 3.20pm Sunday games

*not including our Easter Monday game

Fair to say that scheduling has a huge impact on attendances

The last home game we have for the season is an absolute write off - 4.45pm on Sunday against the Gold Coast at Docklands.

It’s almost like the stars are willing us to fail with that one!

 

[Walshawk]

Interesting that our 4 best home game turnouts so far have arguably been our last 4 home games...

31,895 v West Coast (MCG)
13,006 v Fremantle (Tasmania)
66,807 v Collingwood (MCG)
15,157 v Brisbane (Tasmania)

3 of those games were 1.45pm Saturday games and the other was our single Friday Night MCG game.

Our 5 other home games have been 3.20pm Sunday games

*not including our Easter Monday game

Fair to say that scheduling has a huge impact on attendances

The last home game we have for the season is an absolute write off - 4.45pm on Sunday against the Gold Coast at Docklands.

It’s almost like the stars are willing us to fail with that one!

GC game will be Roughie’s farewell. Might pull 20k - 25k

 

[Bastyy]

Good turnout for brisbane, and a couple of school groups there. Was there a curtain raiser?

Think I saw the Tassie Devils and another team playing on the oval behind the North Terrace, that might have been it

 

[Brant]

Kick for goal like that again & Tassie may even throw us out early...

 

[Mr Taswegian]

Hawthorn president has today come out and stated that he looks forward to the results coming out from the group doing our AFL bid,he is keen to finally know if a Tassie team is viable.

 

[SHAKESPEARE]

Hawthorn president has today come out and stated that he looks forward to the results coming out from the group doing our AFL bid,he is keen to finally know if a Tassie team is viable.

Hope so. Then we can get the * outta there

 

[MrPremiership]

Language coming out of the club seems to be a softening to our presence in Tasmania.

I can't see us staying there after our current deal expires

I'm happy to see more games in Melbourne, but worried as to how we replace such a lucrative deal, especially in a time where we desperately need the money (Dingley)

 

[Pessimistic]

A couple in canberra? The rest in melbourne

 

[Hawk Dork]

A couple in canberra? The rest in melbourne

Dont think the AFL will want us diluting their franchises Canberra push

 

[Pessimistic]

Dont think the AFL will want us diluting their franchises Canberra push

They mentioned canberra was looking for more AFL games. Didnt think GWS would want to move more there

 

[spudmaster]

A couple in canberra? The rest in melbourne

Only during snow season.

 

[Dinsdale]

Only during snow season.

We have a 100% record in the snow

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[Pessimistic]

Always remembereing if 2 teams were to be added, the afl might revert to only playing each team once, which changes the economics of the whole league
And make each home game more precious

 

[Dinsdale]

So 2 teams extra, thats 19 home and away and then finals...I like that

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