The domination of Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast and Sydney

[PerthBoy86]

But I thought it was all about heart and soul and being around for 150 years in the VFL that make's a club great? Actually it turns out you need to know how to run a business. Who'd have thought?

Well run clubs with positive balance sheets and good employees win flags.

Big surprise

We're a proud club. I know the mob south of the river will talk as if we were the golden child given everything, but honestly culture plays a role. We have a culture of performing well, demanding success (let's forget the early 00s haha), and despite accusations or stereotypes, we have a pretty diehard group of supporters too. I mean, just think of those people who drove across the Nullabor in the 90s for the granny who hadn't even secured tickets yet lol.

 

[theyellowsash]

In a 16 team league there theres only a 45% of at least one of these teams not being in the GF (11/16 x 10/15) meaning there is a 55% chance of one of them being there. One of those teams being there about 70% of the time doesn't seem significantly out of whack given real life never follows the 'exactness' of maths.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Still to even get there shows you've been successful. Collingwood, for some reason, do tend to lose a lot more grand finals than most.

15 - 2 - 27 is the current embarrassing number.

Sure you'll have the argument "gotta be in it to win it and Collingwood get there" or "I'd rather my team get there and lose than be perpetual cellar dwellars". Ok fair enough but those figures aren't really a measure of success. Teams like yours, Hawks, Swans and Cats have TRUE measure of success over that time. All of them same amount of GF's or more and more flags.

 

[PerthBoy86]

15 - 2 - 27 is the current embarrassing number.

Sure you'll have the argument "gotta be in it to win it and Collingwood get there" or "I'd rather my team get there and lose than be perpetual cellar dwellars". Ok fair enough but those figures aren't really a measure of success. Teams like yours, Hawks, Swans and Cats have TRUE measure of success over that time. All of them same amount of GF's or more and more flags.

Yeah, premierships are the ultimate measure, but if you want to talk overall success, other factors like finals appearances, head to head etc come into it. The VFL was a different comp, so any discussion of greatest club ever is sort of meaningless, unless you just take the AFL era. Since clubs entered at different times it's too early to tell, but undeniably, Hawthorn, West Coast and Geelong are the best clubs of the AFL era.

 

[PerthBoy86]

15 - 2 - 27 is the current embarrassing number.

Sure you'll have the argument "gotta be in it to win it and Collingwood get there" or "I'd rather my team get there and lose than be perpetual cellar dwellars". Ok fair enough but those figures aren't really a measure of success. Teams like yours, Hawks, Swans and Cats have TRUE measure of success over that time. All of them same amount of GF's or more and more flags.

If Collingwood get to 16 premierships I guess they could claim to be greatest ever in combined AFL/VFL history given more finals and grand finals appearances than Ess or Carl. Though head to heads are very close. Many of those were won before say Hawthorn or Richmond even entered the VFL though. It's amazing Collingwood has only won 2 flags in 60 years though. So Bombers and Blues fans could argue they were much better in the last 60 years when the comp was more professional.

 

[Ok Boomer]

The domination of Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast and Sydney

Just thought I would share but believe it or not since 1990 there has only been 8 Grand Finals where one of these teams hasn’t featured in (only three since 2000).

Hawthorn v Essendon
Hawthorn v West Coast
West Coast v Geelong
Carlton v Essendon
West Coast v Geelong
Carlton v Geelong
North Melbourne v Sydney
Adelaide v St.Kilda
Adelaide v North Melbourne
North Melbourne v Carlton
Essendon v Melbourne
Essendon v Brisbane
Brisbane v Collingwood
Brisbane v Collingwood
Brisbane v Port Adelaide
Sydney v West Coast
Sydney v West Coast
Geelong v Port Adelaide
Geelong v Hawthorn
Geelong v St.Kilda
St.Kilda v Collingwood
Collingwood v Geelong
Hawthorn v Sydney
Hawthorn v Fremantle
Hawthorn v Sydney
Hawthorn v West Coast
Bulldogs v Sydney
Richmond v Adelaide
West Coast v Collingwood

Within that they have played each other in a Grand Final on 12 occasions and won 16 Grand Finals out of a possible 29 (more than half)

With three of the teams Geelong, Collingwood and West Coast featuring in the top 5 this year it’s likely that one of them will be in the Grand Final again and perhaps win it.

West Coast, Geelong and Sydney have hardly missed the finals since 2000. These 5 clubs hold the records in the AFL era for most either Grand Final wins, most Grand Final appearances, most top 4 and 8 appearances, and Geelong have never finished in the bottom 4.

Does this prove an in balance within or are these clubs just great at recruiting the right players and building their clubs back up quicker than the other teams?

Its not like these clubs haven't had down periods either, we had two (2001 & 2008-10 for different reasons), Hawthorn had one in the mid 2000's, Collingwood had one or two, Geelong were in a mini crisis in 2006, but all were proactive and decisive in resolving the issues of the time.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yeah, premierships are the ultimate measure, but if you want to talk overall success, other factors like finals appearances, head to head etc come into it. The VFL was a different comp, so any discussion of greatest club ever is sort of meaningless, unless you just take the AFL era. Since clubs entered at different times it's too early to tell, but undeniably, Hawthorn, West Coast and Geelong are the best clubs of the AFL era.

Agreed since the timeline, those teams as well as Syd have been dominant.

Overall success is a difficult measure given the small sample size of all the non vic clubs.

There is an interesting thread that the op calculates all the metrics like flags, gf's, finals, finals won, games won, McClelland trophy's. Interestingly enough it has Carlton by a plankton's genitals over Collingwood - as soon as the finals start it's Collingwood.

So going by the lack of success of the blose and pies have had since 1990 it's irrelevant to the here and now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If Collingwood get to 16 premierships I guess they could claim to be greatest ever in combined AFL/VFL history given more finals and grand finals appearances than Ess or Carl. Though head to heads are very close. Many of those were won before say Hawthorn or Richmond even entered the VFL though. It's amazing Collingwood has only won 2 flags in 60 years though. So Bombers and Blues fans could argue they were much better in the last 60 years when the comp was more professional.

Actually the last 60 odd years we've been in it 64,66,70,77,79,80,81,90,02,03,10,11,18 for two wins. That's 2-2-11 - after the inception of Hawthorn and Richmond.

That is absolutely deplorable and rightly the club should and is embarrassed by that. Anyway I don't want to make this thread about Collingwood even though it is.

The deserved clubs in the op's discussion are the other four mentioned - not us.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Agreed since the timeline, those teams as well as Syd have been dominant.

Overall success is a difficult measure given the small sample size of all the non vic clubs.

There is an interesting thread that the op calculates all the metrics like flags, gf's, finals, finals won, games won, McClelland trophy's. Interestingly enough it has Carlton by a plankton's genitals over Collingwood - as soon as the finals start it's Collingwood.

So going by the lack of success of the blose and pies have had since 1990 it's irrelevant to the here and now.

Well, it's better than having a Port Adelaide in the SANFL or a New York Yankees who have absolutely dominated lol.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Actually the last 60 odd years we've been in it 64,66,70,77,79,80,81,90,02,03,10,11,18 for two wins. That's 2-2-11 - after the inception of Hawthorn and Richmond.

That is absolutely deplorable and rightly the club should and is embarrassed by that. Anyway I don't want to make this thread about Collingwood even though it is.

The deserved clubs in the op's discussion are the other four mentioned - not us.

Which makes it all the more unbelievable. The Colliwobbles are a thing lol.

Indeed. The rivalry between WC and the Pies has been good value though. We lead head to head and in GFs now.

 

[caloschwaby]

Actually the last 60 odd years we've been in it 64,66,70,77,79,80,81,90,02,03,10,11,18 for two wins. That's 2-2-11 - after the inception of Hawthorn and Richmond.

2 wins, 4 losses, 6 GF's since 1990, could be alot worse.
Got to remember a few we've been lucky to even get into/close to winning (and admittedly a few we should've won).
Overall I would say a better time than being a Saints or Bulldogs fan? Would take back-to-back flags once in my lifetime for me to rest in peace.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Its not like these clubs haven't had down periods either, we had two (2001 & 2008-10 for different reasons), Hawthorn had one in the mid 2000's, Collingwood had one or two, Geelong were in a mini crisis in 2006, but all were proactive and decisive in resolving the issues of the time.

I think this is the crux of it.

A few years ago when the Eagles weren't travelling all that well, there was a thread in here listing a few non Victorian clubs not including Sydney (can't remember which - but all were in a better place than the Eagles at the time) and asking which club would be the next to win a flag. I answered West Coast on the basis that they are "simply better at success". A few thought it was a strange comment, but I was ultimately right.

There are some clubs that are simply more stable and conducive to success.

I include my club in that list but only since the turn of the millennium. Although we won the flag in 1990, the club was a shambles through the 90s. Poorly run, diabolical playing list and in need of an overhaul. Thankfully we got one and Eddie Maguire (as President) and Nathan Buckley (as a player, now as a coach) have played huge roles in that transformation and the lifting of standards.

Since 2002, we have played finals twelve times and missed only six times, been top 4 eight times, won a premiership, won two minor premierships and played in six grand finals (unfortunately we're not great at winning them). We've also had three separate teams that have played in grand finals (early 2000s, early 2010s and the current team), which shows we can rebuild quickly.

All the other clubs listed by the OP have similar traits (other than the tendency to lose grand finals). It's on the rest of the league to forge a similar path.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Dunno if this is reaching, but Perth franchises also tend to do well. Maybe there's something in the water, fighting for state pride. Eagles, Wildcats, Perth Glory. Didn't the Perth Heat also do well lol? Western Warriors...dunno about Netball or BBL. Course let's not talk about Freo.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Dunno if this is reaching, but Perth franchises also tend to do well. Maybe there's something in the water, fighting for state pride. Eagles, Wildcats, Perth Glory. Didn't the Perth Heat also do well lol? Western Warriors...dunno about Netball or BBL. Course let's not talk about Freo.

Yep they're s**t.

However, and I know this is not a popular opinion.... your song is worse than theirs (runs and hides).

The Eagles are a good club, but have the worst theme song in the league by streets. It's bloody awful!

 

[PerthBoy86]

Yep they're s**t.

However, and I know this is not a popular opinion.... your song is worse than theirs (runs and hides).

The Eagles are a good club, but have the worst theme song in the league by streets. It's bloody awful!

Yeah it's not the best, but still is music to the ears (well in the literal and metaphorical sense) when we win. Can't break that association..dunno, theirs is pretty cringeworthy also haha.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Yeah it's not the best, but still is music to the ears (well in the literal and metaphorical sense) when we win. Can't break that association..dunno, theirs is pretty cringeworthy also haha.

Yep it ain't great.

Also the Port Adelaide and Doggies' songs.... My word!

 

[PerthBoy86]

Yep it ain't great.

Also the Port Adelaide and Doggies' songs.... My word!

Dogs one is okay. Remember most afl songs aren't even original, ours is one of the exceptions.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Don't get the random bit at the start they added though. Like why?

 

[Fadge]

What, no Richmond?

 

[smasha]

It shows that strong administrations and club cultures are more important than draft picks etc.

Richmond had stacks of draft picks but we only became a decent club when Gale and Hardwick came in and changed the place internally

Peggy O'Neal as well and Gary March who started the ball rolling.

 

[saints_333]

Its not like these clubs haven't had down periods either, we had two (2001 & 2008-10 for different reasons), Hawthorn had one in the mid 2000's, Collingwood had one or two, Geelong were in a mini crisis in 2006, but all were proactive and decisive in resolving the issues of the time.

Yeah they've had a couple of drop off periods but at the end of the day it's their ability to get back up quicker. That's why I think there's such a consistency of these 5 teams. As soon as 1 or 2 drop off and have a down time one of the other ones seem to take their place. The only real time where all of them were struggling as you can see in the original post is between 97-01.

Look at Geelong for example, in the AFL era they have never finished in the bottom 4.

 

[HairyO]

Don't start slinging that s**t, 1992 and 1996 Hawthorn fined for salary cap breaches, the list of clubs that haven't cheated is a lot shorter than most realise

Hawthorn were fined for late submission. Not for going over by a casual few hundred thousand dollars... like Carlton and Essendon did.

 

[blckcaviar]

What, no Richmond?

They've only been the best team for the last 3 years, before that they were terrible for 30 plus

 

[blckcaviar]

Btw the title of this thread should be "The domination BY" not "OF". Otherwise you're implying these team have been dominated by others

 

[DaveEgoat]

Pfft Sydney

Extra salary cap advantages for the majority of that period

Surprise surprise they didn’t miss finals too often. Colour me shocked