What if history scenarios

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JeanLucGoddard said:
The one that historians will argue in 200 years time is "What is the US had not invaded Iraq in 2003".

We aren't even 20 per cent of the way through the ripples of that one.

Recall than in 2002/03 Putin was still very much keen to be friendly with the West - wanted to sell Europe gas and be left alone to repair Russian society after the impact of de-Sovietisation.

Tony Blair was still riding high and would probably have ended up further wedding Britain to the EU, making Brexit not happen.

FFS, without the Iraq War turning US society against Bush so hard, you'd have no Obama, no Obama = no Trump.

Some forces were already unleashed - notably the financialisation of everything leading to an inevitable 2008 type crash and the impending probably already underway megacrash that kills neo-liberalism once and for all.

Climate change was baked in.

But politically, DECIDING to attack Iraq in 2003 was an enormous turning point.
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You'd probably have McCain, who would have been even worse. Makes Bush and Hillary look like Russophiles.
 
Deliverance said:
What if Germany win WW2 and the state of Israel was never created?
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However had the Germans pushed the Russians over the urals, many Jewish folk would of survived. Many died from disease or starvation due to the war against Russia and having been forced to flee. The Russians burnt everything down as they retreated, scorched earth policy. Leaving so many homeless in a war zone.
 

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Thegibbsgamble said:
However had the Germans pushed the Russians over the urals, many Jewish folk would of survived. Many died from disease or starvation due to the war against Russia and having been forced to flee. The Russians burnt everything down as they retreated, scorched earth policy. Leaving so many homeless in a war zone.
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They would have survived longer but the Germans would have still murdered them eventually.
 
JeanLucGoddard said:
The one that historians will argue in 200 years time is "What is the US had not invaded Iraq in 2003".

We aren't even 20 per cent of the way through the ripples of that one.

Recall than in 2002/03 Putin was still very much keen to be friendly with the West - wanted to sell Europe gas and be left alone to repair Russian society after the impact of de-Sovietisation.

Tony Blair was still riding high and would probably have ended up further wedding Britain to the EU, making Brexit not happen.

FFS, without the Iraq War turning US society against Bush so hard, you'd have no Obama, no Obama = no Trump.

Some forces were already unleashed - notably the financialisation of everything leading to an inevitable 2008 type crash and the impending probably already underway megacrash that kills neo-liberalism once and for all.

Climate change was baked in.

But politically, DECIDING to attack Iraq in 2003 was an enormous turning point.
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Not sp sure.

Putin Vs the west was always going to happen. This might have altered the timing somewhat, but the result would have been the same.

Blair/EU/Brexit. Moving more/faster into the EU would probably have led to a quicker/bigger reaction against it, meaning Brexit would quite likely have already happened. People don't like change, especially if it makes them feel like they're losing control, so that sort of stuff needs to happen slowly.

Obama might have been McCain...Who was an even bigger warmonger and 'swamp' thing, and probably wouldn't have had the press eating out of his hand as much. That said, he probably wouldn't have emboldened the crazy progressives as much, making the Dems less scary to the middle (see above about moving too fast), and the whole scene less divisive, so it could have gone either way.

The rest, as you say, was already happening...timings might have changed a little, but the results not so much.
 
Ice-Wolf said:
They would have survived longer but the Germans would have still murdered them eventually.
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Probably...

If the war had gone really well, they might not have. Mistreat them in horrible ways certainly, kill many, sure, but the actual mass extermination was (and let me stress, this was awful logic/decision making) because the setbacks in the war were considered to be 'due to' the Jews (5th column, sabotage, or just generally being a stain on their society...pick your favorite excuse/scapegoat).

So fewer setbacks *might* have meant more Jews surviving the war. (their fate afterwards being another matter...no doubt something would have been blamed on them eventually).
 
I'm not sure I buy that argument - the Einsatzgruppen were already up and about on the Eastern Front at the point of peak Nazi expansion - I think it is a bit of correlation being mistaken for causation. They happened to get more efficient/economic at their extermination practices as they got the hang off it and it was more of a coincidence that this occurred as the military ventures went south.

It's an interesting thought exercise but my view is that even if the war had kept progressing well they would have continued to wipe them out.
 
Deliverance said:
So how would the world be if they had been wiped out/nearly wiped out and Israel never formed?
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Modern Day Israel would be part of Jordan and the Jews, Christians and Muslims of the country would probably be living in relative harmony.
 
Ice-Wolf said:
They would have survived longer but the Germans would have still murdered them eventually.
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When the Russians approached Warsaw, eisenhower encouraged the Jewish to rise up against the Germans, knowing full well the Russians would slaughter them.

Some say the Russians were worse
 
Ice-Wolf said:
Modern Day Israel would be part of Jordan and the Jews, Christians and Muslims of the country would probably be living in relative harmony.
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If isreal never happened, we would of invaded persia, instead we installed isreal and then backed despot families


We only have isreal becausd our towns and city's didn't want men away at war in the numbers that were. Economies could only last so long with the drain of man power and the stress it put on those left behind.
 
Thegibbsgamble said:
When the Russians approached Warsaw, eisenhower encouraged the Jewish to rise up against the Germans, knowing full well the Russians would slaughter them.

Some say the Russians were worse
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L O L

ok then
 

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Deliverance said:
What if Germany win WW2 and the state of Israel was never created?
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Germany (Europe) would have been a nuclear power under Hitler. Imagine that! German scientists would have stayed and Germans lead space race. Jewish race would have been virtually exterminated. U.S would have been under threat and never reached super power status.

Or like most empires would Germany simply have been too big and caused its collapse eventually? Although that may have taken some time
 
JoondalupJ said:
From what I've read some high up Americans wanted that to happen, and I am sure that the re armed German divisions would have joined the Allies and taken out Stalin, and the world would be a different place altogether, we would still have a Israel problem though, because Germany would have still done its deed on them, so for that to happen all the Nazis would have had to have been dobbed into the allies, but Eisenhower pulled his forces up and let the Russians take out Berlin , there must have been a reason an agreement of some kind, but I reckon if ever the west could have changed the world that was the time.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT , THEY DIDN'T!
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There’s a very good chance that if they confronted Russia that Russia would have steamrolled them all the way back into France. The Russians were humming at that stage.
 
Happy Mastenator said:
There’s a very good chance that if they confronted Russia that Russia would have steamrolled them all the way back into France. The Russians were humming at that stage.
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Maybe , I think the poor Russians were belly filled with violence forced front line fighting , shot to death by their own if they retreated, Stalin was a sick person between the ears, and I suspect many soldiers hated him, but the Soviets fought magnificently , I doubt they would have pushed the allies back to France , but you see re arming a terrified Wehrmacht who knew they'd lost the war, the German normal army, the regulars and recruits and conscripted would have definitely come to the party , but the Western Allies aren't treacherous mongrels like Hitler and Stalin. So we got the cold war. Stalin was a horrific critter, pity when he thought all was lost early on that he didn't jump out a 50 story building, the world would have been a better place.
 
If the top of my head I think the issue is that the Russians had one of the best tanks, and had much more of them then anyone else combined. They would have just kept rolling and would have been very hard for the allies to stop them
 
TheGreatBarryB said:
Germany (Europe) would have been a nuclear power under Hitler. Imagine that! German scientists would have stayed and Germans lead space race. Jewish race would have been virtually exterminated. U.S would have been under threat and never reached super power status.

Or like most empires would Germany simply have been too big and caused its collapse eventually? Although that may have taken some time
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Germany had the technology to build a nuke, just not the recourses.
00Stinger said:
What is Al Gore wins the 2000 US election?
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Same s**t as Bill cLinton.
Happy Mastenator said:
There’s a very good chance that if they confronted Russia that Russia would have steamrolled them all the way back into France. The Russians were humming at that stage.
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Allies were ready. Once they broke out from the beachhead at Normandy, they only ever planned to be ready for a mass counter strike, by Germans or Russians.

They could of been in Berlin in autumn 44, but cOuldnt of been prepared for Russians.
iluvparis said:
How many of the Wehrmacht (of decent quality) were left at the end of WW2?
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18 million served.
6 million never come back.
11 million pows.
1.2.million dead in 45 alone,

They ceased to be a fighting unit in December 44. 3 out of four pows, Western units keen to surrender, but Eastern units generaly Fought to the bitter end.
 
Happy Mastenator said:
If the top of my head I think the issue is that the Russians had one of the best tanks, and had much more of them then anyone else combined. They would have just kept rolling and would have been very hard for the allies to stop them
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With the Western Allies not bombing the German factories and the German war economy being run by someone by someone with half a clue they could probably roll out enough equipment to destroy those tanks faster than the Russian could ship them to the front. (German kill ratios vs russian armor were already pretty good)

German production would have been streamlined they'd have been pumping out Stg45s & MG42s, Me 262 interceptors, Tigers and Tank Destroyers to resupply their own troops and the allies not to mention the french and Belgian armouries also back producing for the western allies with little disruption due to sabotage and material shortage. Plus lend lease would have stopped so the Russians would need to shift production to produce the required trucks and other logistics they'd need that had been supplied by the US.

The Western Allies with the Germans would likely be able to hold the line before pushing the Russians back behind their borders. The Western Allies would likely operate nearly as freely over Russian airspace as the did over German. And the Americans would likely be able to hit the Russians factories which had previously been out of the Germans reach.
 
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Happy Mastenator said:
If the top of my head I think the issue is that the Russians had one of the best tanks, and had much more of them then anyone else combined. They would have just kept rolling and would have been very hard for the allies to stop them
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Whoever had control of the air, had control of the battlefield.

Germans slaughtered armoured army after army in a crazy scale. Proving its Not how many tanks you have, it's how you use them.
 
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