Bluemour Discussion Thread XVIII - Please Sir, Can We Have More?

[Kruezing]

I read that the Crows may be interested in signing Bugg... should we be annoyed if that occurs and they actually get some football out of him?

I’d suggest we’d be the opposite ...

 

[BrownDog20]

You mean his first game

What about if we trade pick 8 for Martin and Brisbane's 1st, then trade that 1st and next years 1st for papley Cameron and 2 2nds

Because Gold Coast won’t do the deal.

Very even draft from pick 8 to pick 16

 

[BringBackSimmo]

I’d suggest we’d be the opposite ...

I suppose we did end up getting Gibbons out of him retiring..

 

[F_therest]

What I’m getting is that we want Papley, Martin, Cameron + whoever else, but no one wants to actually give up any draft picks or money.

Sound strategy.

Pretty sure the same people who are flat out refusing to entertain the deal, would also then rage at the club for not landing any big names and losing Martin to the dogs.

 

[RiCHii]

That seems quite a big payout on our behalf. Papley is decent player but giving up 2 firsts is huge.

Especially considering in the past Sydney have let players go for relatively cheap, or fairly eg: Tom Mitchell for Pick 14. I believe were getting screwed on this deal.

 

[Blutopia]

You grab a bloke around the head then that's on you, regardless of whether they have done anything to draw it.

It's not a blight on the game, it's just one player exploiting the weakness of other players which is what good football is all about. Plenty of players tackle Selwood correctly, it's the ones who don't that stand out because they give away the free.

Tackling is a skill of the game, it's not supposed to be easy and tackling the good players is not supposed to be easy. The good players are supposed to be hard to play against.

Selwood and others aren't cheating. They are very good positioners with exceptional smarts and physical strength. All they are doing is taking advantage of bad tackling which IMO is bad football. Blokes who have a poor tackling technique and tackle a little high to begin with instead of tackling lower and bringing the opponent down.

Good on them for being able to do what they do. Puts the challenge towards the opposition to tackle better and be better and for other players to get to their level in regards to this ability and IMO this is what elite sport is all about. Pushing the boundaries and being challenging at the highest possible level.



This is not taking dives and flopping, this is completely different. That is cheating and has no base on skill or ability. That is something I hate seeing in the game. This is about players who are elite at what they do being ultimately difficult to play against. It's not playing for free kicks, it's taking advantage of bad football (bad tackling).

You're blaming the player getting the free for doing an action which gets them a free. I think far greater blame must go towards the tackler. In the end it's them giving a free away they wouldn't have if they tackled better and with more superior technique. I think most just thing most, if not all the frees plays get from shrugging tackles you could say the tackler could have done that better.

I don't think it's good for the game to reward players with technical flaws and lesser abilities at the expense of players who have elite ability and technique.

Someone like Selwood for instance has elite technique and strength. You have players who have inferior technique and strength infringing because they aren't as good at tackling as Selwood is at shrugging. Quite simply you have a better player beating and exploiting lesser players or player weakness.

I say get better at tackling, go up a level or Selwood and guys like him are going to beat you.

Dropping at the knees, yes that's different but the game is full of players using their strengths and techniques to draw free kicks. Forward who position well and out body to make it more likely they are pushed, chopped or held. Mids who position and use their strengths to put pressure on their opponent and force a hold or illegal tactic. Most free kicks come about from players making mistakes or being done for ability, no different here.

End of the day there is a difference between drawing a free which takes skill, ability, toughness and smarts to put pressure on the opposition to make them do the wrong thing and staging for free kicks which this is not.

IMO we miss out on a heap of free kicks each game because we don't put our head over the ball and take contact enough and because our players don't have the physical strength to bring these little slips and holds. Murphy is good at it because he's strong and willing to put the head over the footy and draw contact but also because he's experienced and clever. Our young players need to add this to their game. Make the opposition worried and then have the menouvers and physical strength the put them in a position where they are giving more frees away.

I put this lack of ability in our team as high priority. We don't get enough free kicks. It's not AFL or umpiring bias. It's to do with the deficiencies in the game of our young players across the board and it's something we need to work on to take the next step.

Good technique, good courage, good athleticism and knowing how to use it and having good game craft will get you more free kicks and also make you a good player.

I think it's funny how the opposition know how hard it is to tackle someone like Selwood and know if you don't tackle properly he will beat you yet they still do it. The challenge is there to do it better. Good on him if he exploits bad tackles and rewards himself with the odd free kick. Good technique, strength and it's good smarts. It's actually good craft and good football.

I can agree with a lot of what your saying in many aspects however I would like to bring up some points as food for thought.

If you tackle lower as you suggest, then you tackle around the waist and don’t pin the arms and therefore the good player gets it away to a team mate.

If you tackle at height of the solar plexus which is the optimal height and the opponent either a) bends at the knees or b) Lifts his arm intentionally for you to slip up above the shoulder, then it is near impossible for the best tackler to not infringe.( You have to take into account the oil/sweat on the arms of player you are tackling).

I think that bending knees and lifting the arm are not in the spirit of our game as it is a technique designed not to evade but to draw a free.

Shrugging is different as it is a movement of hips and shouldn’t cause tackle to go high but if the player with ball has strength in hips and shrugs and the tackler has poor technique- he gets free and runs off. This is a great skill.

The solution is for the umpires to review each games decisions and for clubs to be able to query certain decisions where they feel the technique is not in the spirit of the game and therefore if certain players doing it regularly are found to have gotten consistent frees from these actions then they are to be warned and if it continues the following week then umpires to be notified to not pay high frees to that player.

Don’t shoot me down - just a suggestion to make it a fairer system.

 

[Broadside]

do we likely need draft pick currency to chase Whitfield a year from now? that should be a big factor in what we offer this year.

 

[Del9Sep24]

I read that the Crows may be interested in signing Bugg... should we be annoyed if that occurs and they actually get some football out of him?

Meh, good luck to them. They’re gonna need it

 

[F_therest]

Papley's price is going up by the day

I want Papley but we have to hang onto next years first, as it may be required for one of the last pieces of the puzzle. Second rounders don't count.
Foe me any combination of Papley & Martin that swallows up two firsts, makes for a problem....and one I don't see us walking into.

We would still have our 2021 1st rounder and 2 X 2020 second rounders to trade for a gun player next year if we did this papley trade.

 

[CJMB]

Before everyone gets too worked up (too late?) about the supposed 2x 1sts for The Smear + Cameron + 2x 2nds... are we 100% that those firsts mentioned are ours? I know the rumour says "our", but perhaps SOS want's to somehow split 8 down into some later firsts (whether that also involves our 2020 1st and/or players coming in from other clubs, who knows).

 

[Weiterbot23]

Reasons to overpay for Papley

-He is (imo) a top 3 small forward 24 year olds

-We are desperate for a small forward

-This draft is trash

-We will be top 4 next year

 

[Stamos]

Especially considering in the past Sydney have let players go for relatively cheap, or fairly eg: Tom Mitchell for Pick 14. I believe were getting screwed on this deal.

Mitchell was uncontracted, not playing consistently in their 1s, and they couldn’t afford to pay him.

Papley is a very different prospect.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

What about if we trade pick 8 for Martin and Brisbane's 1st, then trade that 1st and next years 1st for papley Cameron and 2 2nds

Because Papley is the superior asset and Jack martin would be gettable cheaper than what you're proposing.

Pick #17 and a Carlton 2020 1st (with Martin and Papley in the side) is not worth anywhere near #8 and and a Carlton 2020 1st.

It's pretty simple really i think.

Out: #8 and CFC 2020 1st Round Selection
In: Papley, Cameron & Martin

Swans get #8 and CFC 2020 1st
Suns get 2x 2nd Round selections from Sydney

There may be thirds and fourths and fifths exchanged as well in there if anything needs evening.

 

[CJMB]

do we likely need draft pick currency to chase Whitfield a year from now? that should be a big factor in what we offer this year.

Whitfield a FA next year and surely there's no way GWS can match (and force a trade) with Cogs, Kelly, Cameron, Greene, etc probably on about $4M between them....

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Trading 2 years first round pick is way too high.
We are not talking about a top 10 player in competition.
Papley is a good forward pocket, who has occasional runs on the ball. Use some sense and keep 1 first round pick. You never know who will become available; otherwise you shut yourselves out of grabbing a gun for 2 years.

This draft isn't going to get you a top 10 player in the competition so what's the worry? Draft picks being way overvalued here.

Can you tell me who we should select with our first round pick and how they will improve our side over Papley?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Whitfield a FA next year and surely there's no way GWS can match (and force a trade) with Cogs, Kelly, Cameron, Greene, etc probably on about $4M between them....

You've obviously never seen Gil in action.

 

[thylacine60]

Because Gold Coast won’t do the deal.

Very even draft from pick 9 to pick 16

 

[F_therest]

Reasons to overpay for Papley

-He is (imo) a top 3 small forward 24 year olds

-We are desperate for a small forward

-This draft is trash

-We will be top 4 next year

no one will give a shit what we gave up for papley and Martin when they become an integral part of the team next year and help us make finals.

They are the exact type of players we need in the perfect age bracket, who apparently would like to join us. You just get it done.

 

[T2B_]

Before everyone gets too worked up (too late?) about the supposed 2x 1sts for The Smear + Cameron + 2x 2nds... are we 100% that those firsts mentioned are ours? I know the rumour says "our", but perhaps SOS want's to somehow split 8 down into some later firsts (whether that also involves our 2020 1st and/or players coming in from other clubs, who knows).

The Smear? Lordy..

 

[TerryWallet]

Papley's price is going up by the day

I want Papley but we have to hang onto next years first, as it may be required for one of the last pieces of the puzzle. Second rounders don't count.
Foe me any combination of Papley & Martin that swallows up two firsts, makes for a problem....and one I don't see us walking into.

Harks, if you want quality players, these days you are going to have to pay. Nearly all clubs are smart these days. They don't leave themselves vulnerable to losing quality players on the cheap. Plenty of trash is readily available for steals.

But when you reach a strategic stage and you need some ready quality, you are going to be paying "overs". Every club is in the same boat. We have bulk drafted, we have given the free agents our best shot and unfortunately missed. I am perfectly happy to pay a quality price for a quality player or 2. It's what we've planned and built for.

With Silvagni, i'm confident we won't pay more than we need to, but we will pay what we have to.

 

[Stamos]

Before everyone gets too worked up (too late?) about the supposed 2x 1sts for The Smear + Cameron + 2x 2nds... are we 100% that those firsts mentioned are ours? I know the rumour says "our", but perhaps SOS want's to somehow split 8 down into some later firsts (whether that also involves our 2020 1st and/or players coming in from other clubs, who knows).

There’s nobody to split with.
Giants are the only team with 2 firsts, and they’ll want higher than our pick. If they trade up, it will be with St Kilda or Adelaide.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

2X firsts for papley? LOL

For Papley, two seconds and Cameron is the talk.

Effectively its Papley for two pick downgrades.

I'm not fussed with that.

 

[HARKER]

We would still have our 2021 1st rounder and 2 X 2020 second rounders to trade for a gun player next year if we did this papley trade.

2021 1st would be heavily discounted next year, given a. It's a year down the line. b. Expectations will be of a CFC rise up the ladder.
It may not be perceived to be a particular good pick at all for other clubs. Value heavily discounted.

We can do better and we will do better.

 

[Stamos]

Because Papley is the superior asset and Jack martin would be gettable cheaper than what you're proposing.

Pick #17 and a Carlton 2020 1st (with Martin and Papley in the side) is not worth anywhere near #8 and and a Carlton 2020 1st.

It's pretty simple really i think.

Out: #8 and CFC 2020 1st Round Selection
In: Papley, Cameron & Martin

Swans get #8 and CFC 2020 1st
Suns get 2x 2nd Round selections from Sydney

There may be thirds and fourths and fifths exchanged as well in there if anything needs evening.

Martin won’t cost 2 seconds

 

[chelseacarlton]

Well we wouldn't want the mattress to catch fire or something.

What’s or something?
Your mum finding your poem stash?

I might be wrong and if anyone knows please correct me, but I think its a three year rolling cap on the 5%. We have been paying 95% of the salary cap consistantly for a while but we can only pay 105% of the salary cap for three years, even if we payed under for much longer. Under that logic Sos has a 15% "war chest", nearly 1.9 Mil, he has been saving to front load a guanine A grade.

Cheers Curn!