Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

[djholmes]

If we give up Pick 8 for Papley, SOS needs to be sacked.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

SOS won’t get sacked.

 

[Accidental genius]

SOS won’t get sacked.

Sos?

 

[Gw2_James]

The only reason i come onto this board is due to having so many friends that support your club and go to alot of carlton games as well as some pre season training sessions and probably know your list almost as much as the Richmond list. Whilst there are alot of things i do read here from supporters that are just not true or wrong i tend to not post about it and let it fly over so as to not get into conflict.

There are also a number of posters here that give me crap on this board and are all tuff and mighty but when i come acrosss them either on the main board or even when they venture over to the richmond board are then all of a sudden extremely polite and fluffy but i suppose thats how it goes.

I genuinely dont hate Carlton any more because i actually want my very good friends to see there team do well and experience success as we have done, We all convince our kids to follow our team and make sure they do and i know exactly what it feels like for your kids to follow your team and have nothing to show for it and you do feel crap about being the reason for this. I have 2 kids 30 & 23 and both are educated and intelligent girls who have double degree's and 1 is a lawyer whilst the other is in finance. But i see my friends younger kids that are 17-25 who say things like i only support carlton because i have to for Dad now that feels crap so i do genuinely want you guys to do well (except against us)

There are just 2 other teams boards i visit GC & Doggies sometimes and only 3 teams now i truly hate Adelaide,Lions,Pies and couldnt care if they finished up tomorrow. Any way thats me

Just out of curiosity, how come you hate those 3 clubs?

 

[Juddrockz]

Sounds like Papley will be doable, hard work yes, but doable.
Butler should be fairly painless to obtain.
Reportedly some posturing re Betts but ultimately attainable at very little cost.

Add these 3 players, a fit Cuningham and possibly Martin to Curnow McGovern McKay and a roaming Silvagni and you have the makings of a very very dangerous forward line.

Throw in another pre season into our young guys and blue skies ahead!

 

[Faz 2000]

Just out of curiosity, how come you hate those 3 clubs?

Well they ARE three of my 17 least favourite teams.

 

[Stiffler's Dad]

Sos?

SOS = Sacked on spot.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I must admit, I am surprised at the amount of acceptance around 'our need for leg-speed on the outside' being one of if not our biggest need at the moment. Do we really need it THAT badly? I for one, am none-too-excited to hear us being linked to Jack Martin. Are we not bullish on Fisher's, SPS's and Cuningham's development?

I would rather see us target a B+, two-way mid who is a footballer first and foremost. A clean, tough, good user who can play a couple of different roles for the team but doesn't have a Coniglio price tag. Think Mitch Duncan, Kane Lambert type.

For mine, this should be our #1 priority and should be a guy who is 22-27 yo. From then on, I would say our priorities are;

small forward(s)
developing ruck(s)
outside runner(s)
lock down small defender

Am I on drugs?

Jack Martin is precisely a B+, two-way mid who is a footballer first and foremost, a clean, tough, good user who can play a couple of different roles for the team but doesn't have a Coniglio price tag.

 

[Mezzoculo]

Good footy discussions is good for footy regardless which supporters it came from, right??

Yep. Especially those who are respectful and understanding of Carlton's list etc. The more the merrier AFAIK

 

[Moody Blue]

Because TDK isn’t ready and Kreuzer and Phillips are both injury prone.

Carlton has an unhealthy obsession with ruckmen.

 

[krusher]

If we give up Pick 8 for Papley, SOS needs to be sacked.

isn't Papley a safer and already more developed small forward as compared to whoever we could draft with pick 8 ?

I agree its slightly overs but its not out of the ball park - pick 8 plus a swap of picks somehow and we should do the deal - get jack martin some other way with a future 2nd

 

[Blue__Balls]

isn't Papley a safer and already more developed small forward as compared to whoever we could draft with pick 8 ?

I agree its slightly overs but its not out of the ball park - pick 8 plus a swap of picks somehow and we should do the deal - get jack martin some other way with a future 2nd

Don't mind DJ, he seems to have a bit of an agenda against SOS, and has form going early with ridiculous hyperbole:

Stephen Silvagni needs to get sacked for doing this trade taking into account his 1st round draft record at GWS is also shockingly bad. We need some accountability at Carlton.

2011:
Pick 1: Patton (miss)
Pick 2: Coniglio (hit)
Pick 3: Dom Tyson (miss)
Pick 4: Hoskin-Elliot (miss)
Pick 5: Buntine (miss)
Pick 7: Haynes (hit)
Pick 9: Tomlinson (hit)
Pick 10: Sumner (miss)
Pick 11: Greene (hit)
Pick 13: Taylor Adams (hit)
Pick 14: Devon Smith (hit)

6 hits
5 misses

Very bad ratio of hits and misses.

2012:
Pick 1: Whitfield (hit)
Pick 2: O'Rouke (miss)
Pick 3: Plowman (miss)
Pick 12: Jaksch (miss)
Pick 14: Aidan Corr (miss)

1 hit
4 misses

Shocking performance from SOS in for the 2012 1st round draft picks.

2013
Pick 1: Tom Boyd (miss)
Pick 2: Kelly (hit)
Pick 14: McCarthy (miss)

2014
Pick 4: Pickett (miss)
Pick 6: Marchbank (miss)
Pick 7: Ahern (miss)

Again shocking performance from SOS in 2014. SOS drafted Pickett before De Goey (lol). No wonder GWS let him go to Carlton thereafter.

What a shocking trade by SOS. I've done the ladder predictor and the best we can finish is 2nd last.

I understand from all reports the top 2 picks this year are absolute guns and the rest of the pack are average.

SOS needs to get sacked for this massive blunder. I would bring in Scott Clayton instead.

Congratulations Adelaide - you will be receiving Pick 2 now that we have bottled it against a Melbourne team without Gawn playing. SOS needs to be sacked for this absolute shocking trade since Pick 2 this year will be another Sam Walsh.

 

[HARKER]

So there's confusion down at ikon Park?

This can't be the case if we have the hierarchy in place and if we don't.....then it's Liddle and the board that have to answer 'Why not?'
Can't say I was ever a fan of the splitting of List Manager roles, no matter how they're supposedly set up, as there can realistically be only one List Manager and if that's still SOS, Agresta may be SOS's right-hand man and not deserving of the List Managers title.

We know Teague wants his small forwards and SOS is trying to get them to him, but Teague can't weigh in and demand a player he shares a friendship with to get in the way of practical measures. (If indeed Teague is putting his best case forward for Betts)

It may not get messy but I can see how it could and if it does, it will again be thanks to our lack of control and administration.

 

[DangerousD]

Don't mind DJ, he seems to have a bit of an agenda against SOS, and has form going early with ridiculous hyperbole:

Is there not a lot of merit in those figures? The draft hits and misses are subjective but are there for all to see. His drafting hasn’t been great and it’s good to discuss it, to see if it’s a certain playing type SOS prefers or were they genuinely rated in that position?

SOS isn’t above scrutiny

 

[THE_GUN]

Just out of curiosity, how come you hate those 3 clubs?

Adelaide - Always thought they were an insignificant made up club which had a few players i didnt mind but really a pack of self entitled wan**res
But after the crap they tried to pull in the 2017 GF with their stupid power rangers sh!t just made me dislike them badly but their supporters afterwards were absolutely terrible so i hate the flogs.

Brisbane - Since their great winning team years ago were so good but supporters just as bad as the crows supporters. And they banned me from their board because i said that Andrew Raines was not good enough to tag Dustin Martin 7 years ago ......................... Im still banned lol

Collingwood , Well do i really need a reason they are just collingwood and how can you not hate a club who's supporters have no teeth and marry their sisters

Ohh and i grew up in Richmond so neighbouring suburb and school footy against Collingwood tech

 

[DangerousD]

So there's confusion down at ikon Park?

This can't be the case if we have the hierarchy in place and if we don't.....then it's Liddle and the board that have to answer 'Why not?'
Can't say I was ever a fan of the splitting of List Manager roles, no matter how they're supposedly set up, as there can realistically be only one List Manager and if that's still SOS, Agresta may be SOS's right-hand man and not deserving of the List Managers title.

We know Teague wants his small forwards and SOS is trying to get them to him, but Teague can't weigh in and demand a player he shares a friendship with to get in the way of practical measures. (If indeed Teague is putting his best case forward for Betts)

It may not get messy but I can see how it could and if it does, it will again be thanks to our lack of control and administration.

I think it’s easy to make any story no matter how small, sound like a big issue. The comments by Msmurph, may just be in relation to, Liddle asking SOS, what more can we do, did we do everything we could, are we being too tight with money, why are others offering x and we are only offering y, did we miss something with Stack, what can we do, so it doesn’t happen again.

All of these are normal questions that serve to improve our organisation and don’t question anyone’s authority.

Are you taking them a different way?

 

[HARKER]

I think it’s easy to make any story no matter how small, sound like a big issue. The comments by Msmurph, may just be in relation to, Liddle asking SOS, what more can we do, did we do everything we could, are we being too tight with money, why are others offering x and we are only offering y, did we miss something with Stack, what can we do, so it doesn’t happen again.

All of these are normal questions that serve to improve our organisation and don’t question anyone’s authority.

Are you taking them a different way?

I'm not taking anything as fact that streams from the media.
I do though know that SOS was under a lot of heat mid year.
Maybe that's all changed since Teague took over, and maybe it will just take a little more time.

If though Liddle did have a little heart to heart with SOS, who would have 'leaked' this out. Liddle? SOS? I don't know.

 

[THE_GUN]

If we give up Pick 8 for Papley, SOS needs to be sacked.

Why ? Papley is a very very good player and exactly the type of player carlton needs
averages 15 poss and 3 tackles a game
Good balance of contested and uncontested ball
good de% rate and 1.7 goals a game
has 8-10 year career ahead of him

pick #8 is really not that much for such a player and that pik will most likely become pick #10 with GC almost certain to get a PP and GWS taking green as an academy selection.

Carlton invested #10 on Lochie O'Brien and if he turned out to be as good as Papley im sure 99% of Carlton supporters would have been over the moon

 

[Faz 2000]

Papley for #8 is good business. He's a very good player in a position where we desperately need help. If that's all it costs, we do it for sure.

Maybe in a strong draft one could argue it could be overs... but it's not much overs, worst case, so you just do it. An argument can be made it's unders, too, but I'm not copping any of that "worth two first rounders" crap.

If he's gettable for #8 or #8 and a bit of a swap, I'm rapt with that and it improves the Blues immediately and for a long while.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

Why ? Papley is a very very good player and exactly the type of player carlton needs
averages 15 poss and 3 tackles a game
Good balance of contested and uncontested ball
good de% rate and 1.7 goals a game
has 8-10 year career ahead of him

pick #8 is really not that much for such a player and that pik will most likely become pick #10 with GC almost certain to get a PP and GWS taking green as an academy selection.

Carlton invested #10 on Lochie O'Brien and if he turned out to be as good as Papley im sure 99% of Carlton supporters would have been over the moon

WTF are you talking about? Pick 8 is far too valuable to trade and must be taken to the draft. We are in desperate need of a small forward who can apply defensive pressure and run through the midfield.

 

[THE_GUN]

WTF are you talking about? Pick 8 is far too valuable to trade and must be taken to the draft. We are in desperate need of a small forward who can apply defensive pressure and run through the midfield.

OK , Can i ask which player in the draft you will take with a pick 8-10 ?

You need to know the quality of the player you will get with that pick compared to the player you could trade for in Papley and dont you think you have enough kids

 

[Blue__Balls]

Is there not a lot of merit in those figures? The draft hits and misses are subjective but are there for all to see. His drafting hasn’t been great and it’s good to discuss it, to see if it’s a certain playing type SOS prefers or were they genuinely rated in that position?

SOS isn’t above scrutiny

Very different circumstances.

At GWS SOS had a wealth of high draft picks, and therefore the luxury of being able to take significant risks at the draft knowing that if a player didn't pan out quickly they could be traded away before their value dropped too far.

2011:
Pick 1: Patton (miss) - injuries
Pick 2: Coniglio (hit)
Pick 3: Dom Tyson (miss)
Pick 4: Hoskin-Elliot (miss) - miss? handy player
Pick 5: Buntine (miss) - miss? handy player
Pick 7: Haynes (hit)
Pick 9: Tomlinson (hit)
Pick 10: Sumner (miss)
Pick 11: Greene (hit)
Pick 13: Taylor Adams (hit)
Pick 14: Devon Smith (hit)

6 hits
5 misses

Very bad ratio of hits and misses. (I've got it as 2 misses and a bit of bad luck with Patton - 8.5 from 11 is a good strike rate)

2012:
Pick 1: Whitfield (hit)
Pick 2: O'Rouke (miss) - injuries
Pick 3: Plowman (miss) - miss? handy player
Pick 12: Jaksch (miss)
Pick 14: Aidan Corr (miss) miss? handy player, injury affected

1 hit
4 misses

Shocking performance from SOS in for the 2012 1st round draft picks. (2 misses, 2 good role players, 1 star - 3 from 5 is pretty good - 2012 was also a diabolical draft pool)

2013
Pick 1: Tom Boyd (miss) - harsh, won the Dogs a flag, ruined by mental health issues
Pick 2: Kelly (hit)
Pick 14: McCarthy (miss) - miss? handy player

(No major misses here, two players that jumped ship, but he also fleeced Melbourne to the tune of Josh Kelly)

2014
Pick 4: Pickett (miss) - injuries
Pick 6: Marchbank (miss) - miss? handy player, injury affected
Pick 7: Ahern (miss) - miss? injury affected and finding his feet at NM

(Once again, a bit of poor luck with injuries, but another really weak draft pool to select from)


So yeah, I don't subscribe to this "poor drafting history". None of the players who have left have really been missed, and they cashed in on a few of them along the way. The club was in a pretty unique position where they were able to use multiple first rounders every year but only really needed one or two to come on to keep their list healthy.

Took a similar approach at Carlton but had to work to engineer the picks.

Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Dow, O'Brien, Walsh, Stocker. I'm more than happy with that bunch of selections.

 

[Garters]

If we give up Pick 8 for Papley, SOS needs to be sacked.

Why? What's your take on pick 8 relative to other options?

 

[Blue__Balls]

OK , Can i ask which player in the draft you will take with a pick 8-10 ?

You need to know the quality of the player you will get with that pick compared to the player you could trade for in Papley and dont you think you have enough kids

I think that comment was tongue-in-cheek

 

[Garters]

WTF are you talking about? Pick 8 is far too valuable to trade and must be taken to the draft. We are in desperate need of a small forward who can apply defensive pressure and run through the midfield.

Value is relative as I have said numerous times. Takes 4 years for a kid to hit his straps. Could be a bust before you've even started. A plug in and play, has immediate impact, and you know what you are getting. Experienced head helps development of other kids on the list, and we are top heavy with young talent. Draft isn't always the solution.