Geelong: why are they just not good enough?

[Art Vandelay_]

It’s gotta be the coach doesn’t it?

Assistants imo. We haven’t turned them over in years and the development in the VFL is haphazard at best.

Parsons. Play nearly all his senior footy as a small forward/flanker. Plays VFL as an inside mid. Ditto Sam Simpson who if he got a game would be as a wing/flanker. Ditto Fogarty, who is a midfielder they shove to a pocket. The same thing they do to Parfitt, who only teases with flashes of what he can do.

Buzza, Abbott, Smith and Fort let’s face it won’t make it, and some have probably got their papers stamped... play as key forwards in the VFL, while Krueger who could make it, and had a bag of 6 this season... languishes in defence.

Can’t develop/draft rucks, or small forwards. We have a development and VFL program issue, which is lamentable given we’re standalone and don’t have to cater to a VFL clubs whims. We can do as we wish.

This isn’t a Scott problem, he gets a team without a great ruck and that can’t stand up under intense pressure as far as he can. He needs more players who use the ball well under pressure, a ruck, a key forward and some outside speed.

Rahilly, O’Bree, Lappin, Knights have all been here too long and haven’t shown they excel at anything.

 

[_jrtp09_]

Geelong are more than capable but in this instance just not good enough on the night.

 

[master bate]

We haven’t ignored squat. We’ve just won games and been denied access. Selwood at pick 7 btw is the same draft number than the best pick we had from any player who played in a recent flag.

Joel Corey , pick 8, 1999
Andrew Mackie, pick 7, 2002 draft
James Bartel, pick 8, 2001 draft

Prior to Selwood’s arrival guys like Chapman, Johnson, Milburn, Hunt, Scarlett, Enright, Wojcinski, Kelly, Rooke, Ablett all came with picks in the 2nd round or later. We haven’t finished bottom 4 since 1986 and yet since then have built sides to compete deep in finals in each of the 90s, 00s and 10s.

We’ve turned over something like 36 players in the last 4 years, and as an FYI having a couple of those years where we decide to trade away picks for players doesn’t prove we’re ignoring the draft, we’re still drafting quite a few players, and in the pick ranges we built our last flag sides from. The true issue is we’re not maximising the good draft picks we get, either Wells drafts good footballers who get poorly developed or he’s drafting duds.

Smedts
Lang
Thurlow
Cockatoo
Fogarty
Parfitt

P.S. Tom Stewart came from the draft and he’s a 2x AA gun.

Phenomenal recruiting with Stewart and Kelly (Miers, Esava, Henry etc) to get your anywhere near a flag list. Those run of outs with picks in the teens will happen to even the best recruiters and is costing you big time now. Plus Cockatoo's injuries.

By the way I have it on good authority that the Cats footy department was stretched woefully thin for a period in the mid 10's with some poor results. Not sure who is to blame there. Wells over promoted? Balme going? Hocking overrated and looking for an out. Something went a little haywire.

My theory: Building a whole new stadium stretched the finances and resources and the club took their eye off the ball for a while.

Still is worth asking whether a run of top 10 picks like the Corey, Bartel, Mackie isn't required to really build up the list, especially with the benefit of the father sons these days. Jordan Clark (should've and would've been a top 10 pick most years) is a nice start but I reckon the Cats need to bring a couple more in like him for sustainable success.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Assistants imo. We haven’t turned them over in years and the development in the VFL is haphazard at best.

Parsons. Play nearly all his senior footy as a small forward/flanker. Plays VFL as an inside mid. Ditto Sam Simpson who if he got a game would be as a wing/flanker. Ditto Fogarty, who is a midfielder they shove to a pocket. The same thing they do to Parfitt, who only teases with flashes of what he can do.

Buzza, Abbott, Smith and Fort let’s face it won’t make it, and some have probably got their papers stamped... play as key forwards in the VFL, while Krueger who could make it, and had a bag of 6 this season... languishes in defence.

Can’t develop/draft rucks, or small forwards. We have a development and VFL program issue, which is lamentable given we’re standalone and don’t have to cater to a VFL clubs whims. We can do as we wish.

This isn’t a Scott problem, he gets a team without a great ruck and that can’t stand up under intense pressure as far as he can. He needs more players who use the ball well under pressure, a ruck, a key forward and some outside speed.

Rahilly, O’Bree, Lappin, Knights have all been here too long and haven’t shown they excel at anything.

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

Yes.
They are the problem and Cook/Lloyd won’t even bother with internal reviews.

We saw last night that when the skills are at an acceptable level the game plan works against the best, it falls to pieces when the skill level drops. The mix of assistants are inadequate at getting the players to the level required.

Phenomenal recruiting with Stewart and Kelly (Miers, Esava, Henry etc) to get your anywhere near a flag list. Those run of outs with picks in the teens will happen to even the best recruiters and is costing you big time now. Plus Cockatoo's injuries.

By the way I have it on good authority that the Cats footy department was stretched woefully thin for a period in the mid 10's with some poor results. Not sure who is to blame there. Wells over promoted? Balme going? Hocking overrated and looking for an out. Something went a little haywire.

My theory: Building a whole new stadium stretched the finances and resources and the club took their eye off the ball for a while.

Still is worth asking whether a run of top 10 picks like the Corey, Bartel, Mackie isn't required to really build up the list, especially with the benefit of the father sons these days. Jordan Clark (should've and would've been a top 10 pick most years) is a nice start but I reckon the Cats need to bring a couple more in like him for sustainable success.

they were.
Wells underlings were poached and for a period not replaced, at one point had a 3 man recruiting team. Nowhere near enough to cover the whole country.

 

[Grockadoc]

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

If he is blaming the assistants, why not blame the people who recruited them and haven't flicked them yet?

 

[Kram]

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

Why not, Scott himself is well known in passing off personal responsibility himself. For example on the decision to not select Stanley in the QF.

"There was an argument either way, on balance my opinion, and I'm one of umm... about 6 or 7 people that have a say in it, I think yeah.. over the next 24 hours my assessment is we should have played him."

 

[demondavey]

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

I think Geelong are good enough, I just think Scott let’s them down with his selection and coaching. And I think leadership is an issue.

 

[M_I_G]

chris scott is like me and golf
all the gear, no idea

 

[JackFlash]

Geelong has always been an oddball club, their acceptance of mediocrity is the one thing that really galls me...Geelong has suffered an inferiority complex for as long as i can remember...

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You’re going to bypass the guy in charge to point the finger at his assistants?

As stated: No internal reviews.

3AW today - club president.

Chris Scott is again under fire after another Geelong finals loss — and the club president says it’s unfair. Plus, we look at the key questions confronting the Cats — including the coaching move that’s “hard to defend”.

Geelong president Colin Carter has defended coach Chris Scott in the wake of another finals exit, saying he doesn’t understand criticism of the man who’s a “terrific human being and coach”.

The Cats last night lost their fourth preliminary final in as many attempts and the dissection is on, with critics pouncing on some coaching decisions while some supporters have also been quick to join the pile-on.

Carter said he’s shocked at the level of abuse directed at the club by a minority of supporters, saying he was unsure why Scott appeared to have a target on his back.

“I don’t accept it because the people close to him have a completely different view,” Carter said.

“I think he’s a terrific human being and a terrific coach.

“I’m not sure why he attracts the flak — whether he’s too thoughtful for some fringe group of punters, I don’t know.”

On Saturday, Carter revealed the club had copped a barrage from a select group of fans unhappy with another missed opportunity.

“I’m amazed at how ugly a very small raft of the supporters is and I’ve received messages over the past few weeks that have been quite foul,” he told 3AW.

“Talking about our people in a way that is completely disrespectful. There’s been amazing support from most of our members but there is an ugly side out there that is pretty distressing.

“If I was in the firing line like the players and the coaches no wonder it gets you down.

“In an era where we talk about mental illness and the pressures that people are under yet some people feel they are obliged to be abusive.”

They're not going to review him, he's their man, they've repeatedly backed him.
As a regular VFL observer the development and learning curve of players appears sub-optimal.

Thompson gets the medals as the 2 time premiership coach.
He'd have 0 if he didn't have Hinkley and McCartney as his right hand men. The RHM at the moment, to me anyway, appear inadequate.

 

[Ando727]

Geelong has always been an oddball club, their acceptance of mediocrity is the one thing that really galls me...Geelong has suffered an inferiority complex for as long as i can remember...

Even after winning their 3rd flag in 6 years? I don't remember that being the case in their golden era. And you got nothing on the Dees!

 

[jc12]

because they sook about everything

 

[randyzany]

Lack of access to Top 10 draft picks it's what's hampering our rebuilds that can lead to flag success.

 

[bullish23]

It’s simple. Their home ground advantage masks their true ability.

 

[Ray Donovan]

I assumed he was originally getting a game, because others weren't due to injury. He's made a decent account of himself as a first year player, but he's not "clearly best 22" with everyone up and going, really.



Umm, I wasn't...

I know Cunico is a different player, who would likely also be around the mark for Geelong if fit, particularly because he provides a point of difference as an outside runner compared to a lot of their midfielders. He's a better player when fit right now than Clark.



I was putting up an "everyone fully fit" best 22. Would Cockatoo not be in or around the side, if fully fit? I think he would.

Either way, we're quibbling over the 19th-27th players, who aren't exactly going to make or break the Cats' fortunes, surely.

 

[Damon_3388]

View attachment 752489View attachment 752489

Fair enough then. Thought he was OK when fit. Didn't Josh Cowan himself into a further 2-3 years on the list.

 

[Countrypie]

I'm a long time reader first time ( I think) contributor to this thread.
I grew up in Geelong and I'm not a fan. Never have been.
I take a very close interest in them all the same and to be honest I have an irrational dislike of them.
That said. I think any reasonable person would have to admit that their run since 2007 has been outstanding.
That's a helluva long time to be up and every year I tell myself this will be their last year but it never happens.
Their talent identification is second to none and they have a unique demographic advantage being separate from Melbourne and having a real appeal to players who grew up there barracking for them.
They've got a great culture from all accounts and remain a destination club.
You have to take your hat off to them (remember I don't like them).
However, now, they are starting to remind me of my team's performance in the 70s and 80s - almost good enough but slightly performing above expectations - due in part to a distinct home ground advantage that probably gets them 1 or 2 extra wins a year and a fair chunk of percentage and due partly to a very strong team and club culture that gets the maximum out of those on the list.
There is no shame in Geelong's performances since 2011 -quite the opposite in fact. They have defied gravity thanks to to some smart and ruthless list management and the recruitment of Dangerfield and Kelly in particular. They are to be begrudgingly admired.
There is much talk about the coach. I have said it in relation to Buckley and I'll say it in relation to the Scott - they are responsible for the last few degrees of result - nothing more and nothing less. Provided that they don't lose the players and have a recognisable workable playing system and structure in place they're by and large doing their job. Assessing selection choices and positional moves in isolation is neither logical nor fair. I think Scott was in the right place at the right time in 2011 and since then has done a pretty good job - not outstanding but above par.
All that said, I do see some danger signs for the cats.
I think I've mentioned culture several times already.
When I left Geelong way back in the mid eighties, it is fair to say that Geelong's culture was horrible. There was what I call a city wide bubble that enveloped the club, pumped up unprofessional player's tyres and generally promoted an atmosphere of being a Geelong footballer was an achievement in itself (even if you languished in the reserves all year) Malcolm Blight nearly fixed it by being Malcolm Blight. But the change was brief and fleeting. It wasn't until the triumvirate of Cook, Costa and Thompson got a hold of the place and shook the living daylights out of it that the club was able to insulate itself against the backslappers and the resultant dangers of moonhead syndrome. Unless you lived in Geelong for some time you have no idea of what a significant achievement that was. My connections in Geelong tell me that there is some evidence that that insulation may be starting to wear thin.That some current players may think that their status as a Geelong footballer entitles them to privileges that other Geelong residents may not be entitled to. These stories are isolated but were pretty much non existent until the last 2-3 years. To me, this is Geelong's big challenge maintaining the wonderful club culture that they built over a decade. If they lose that then they're in trouble. Provided they keep it they will remain a power. There will be down years - every club has them and Geelong are due but I wouldn't write them off just yet.

 

[QuietB]

It’s gotta be the coach doesn’t it?

Yes.

1. Geelong’s start to the year coincided with two things IMO. The first was Dahlhaus and Rowan fixed the forward pressure issue. With Hawkins, Ablett, Menzel and sometimes Taylor teams have been waltzing out of Geelong’s defence for years. For the first half of this year that was resolved. By the end of the year Scott had abandoned it.

2. The second thing was a settled defence. Blicavs was the AA full back at the halfway point of the year and Geelong’s defence was miserly. Again Chris Scott abandoned this. And worse he outright refused to put Blicavs back again in finals. This was nothing more than pigheadedness.

3. His complaining about playing week 1 of finals at the MCG was unforgivable. An AFL coach has one job in finals and that is to prepare your team for every game they have to play. Anyone anywhere anytime. Instead he created a circus that would not go away for two weeks. It also created a sense of entitlement rather than an urgency to work/win. It was plainly unprofessional.

4. Inability to take any responsibility. Week after week Scott took zero responsibility for losses. Cameroon wasn’t that good. Lynch wasn’t that good. Our execution simply wasn’t up to scratch. That is not going to build respect from your own players who understand exactly what happened on the ground. If fact it is more likely to do the opposite. And remember again the coach has one job - prepare your team. How is shifting responsibility to your players execution building them up for the next challenge? It is not - it is selfishly protecting yourself.

5. Not taking responsibility for selection. The Stanley thing was a debacle. Again blame sharing was nothing more than self serving deflection. Sir Alex Ferguson would have never done it. Bill Belichick would not have done it. Neither would Gregg Poppovich or any other great coach. It was shocking leadership.

I’m not convinced Geelong are good enough to win it all but the above pretty much ruined any chance they had.

 

[Milenko]

They're a bit like Sydney 2013-2018

Defying gravity, but eventually the arse will fall out ala Sydney 2019

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wojcinski, forget about the most successful club in living memory, this is the thread you should roll up your sleeves and get stuck into.


8 years of topping up for zero flags? And now Ablett and Taylor are going on again desperately while you lose Kelly?

 

[Wojcinski]

Wojcinski, forget about the most successful club in living memory, this is the thread you should roll up your sleeves and get stuck into.


8 years of topping up for zero flags? And now Ablett and Taylor are going on again desperately while you lose Kelly?

Jeez I really did break you didn't I? Tagging me in a post I haven't posted in for over 13 months

You going to tag me on the Hawks board again so you can give me infraction points again too?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Jeez I really did break you didn't I? Tagging me in a post I haven't posted in for over 13 months

You going to tag me on the Hawks board again so you can give me infraction points again too?

Well that literally never happened, but that’s a brilliant fantasy you’ve got going on there.


I want to re-align your attention to your own club.

Think of it as a community service initiative.

 

[Wojcinski]

Well that literally never happened, but that’s a brilliant fantasy you’ve got going on there.


I want to re-align your attention to your own club.

Think of it as a community service initiative.

It did, twice, before I changed my username. You are a sook. Don't tag me in stuff I'm not involved in.

 

[My Tilly]

Wojcinski, forget about the most successful club in living memory, this is the thread you should roll up your sleeves and get stuck into.


8 years of topping up for zero flags? And now Ablett and Taylor are going on again desperately while you lose Kelly?

Have to admit, I heard this news last night and it's utterly ridiculous.
Taylor is cooked.
Ablett probably has another year left in him but when a player begins to fall to the ground consistently and they're on the wrong side of 30, it often means they are finished.
I have never seen Ablett go to ground as often as he did in the latter stages of the year.

We either have very little depth at VFL level, or the club has a false sense of where they are at.

Fingers crossed we get another blessed run with injuries and we find an immediate replacement for Tim Kelly.