Tasmania Congratulations on Tassie License. Mens team to enter 2028. Womens team TBA. Other details TBA 3/5

[Chief]

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GO TO PART 2 of this thread:

Tasmania - Tasmania Devils, welcome to the AFL. Mens team to enter 2028. Womens team TBA. Other details TBA 3/5 (Part 2)

Continued from Part 1: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/congratulations-on-tassie-license-mens-team-to-enter-2028-womens-team-tba-other-details-tba-3-5.1226653/ Was going to draft up a Summary but this is pretty good...

www.bigfooty.com

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[Engimal v3]

Plenty of 18 to 23 year olds do care where they live.
Over the decades, they have shown a low propensity for wanting to live in Tassie.
A new Tassie team will need at least 30 footballers to move to Tassie, many of them will be aged 18 - 23.
I simply say, that will present the new team with a challenge.

The primary driver for that age bracket leaving Tasmania is work-related [2014 survey]. 45% of respondents responded that they wished to return to Tasmania when the opportunity arises.

Additionally, this study shows that 84% still consider themselves to have a strong connection to the state, with ~70% describing themselves as Tasmanian before their current state/country of residence, including even the label of Australian. I think that bodes pretty well for Tasmanians supporting their team from interstate.

As a Tasmanian expat myself you definitely find that there is a much higher level of "patriotism" amongst us than expats from other states.

 

[Kwality]

No, if it's only 80% it's not...but For North v Richmond, it was selling out.
Reserving seats could work, but that could run into issues with the political aspects (pork barreling/vote buying) of their governments paying for these games.

Cooky is making the Eagles ground management model work, I'd be amazed if it wasnt used in Tas.
Are you looking for walk up numbers?

 

[telsor]

Cooky is making the Eagles ground management model work, I'd be amazed if it wasnt used in Tas.
Are you looking for walk up numbers?

The difference (for now at least), is that the WA plan was brought in along with a major expansion...When you add 30,000 seats, putting a small part of that aside for tourists still leaves the lions share of the extra seats for locals ...There might be a little grumbling, but for the most part, everyone is happy.

*IF* the Tas ground are expanded, it wont be by that much, and if you add 5000 seats, then put most, if not all of them all aside for tourists (maybe even more?), there might be some genuine complaints.

Before people start talking about even bigger expansions...Remember that relative to the local population, these are already big grounds. Bellerive already takes about 9% of the local population to fill it. Optus is closer to 2.5%, AO 3.5% (KP would be similar, but it has Melbourne just up the road, so a comparison to Hobart doesn't really hold up...It's more like YP in this respect, where 'the surrounding area' far outweighs the city itself, making the numbers a bit fuzzy depending on what you include...).

 

[madmug]

I got this from the report from Hobart Council about the economic impact of their investment. (I've referenced and linked to it several times). They are one of the main investors aren't they?

They can have a million hotels rooms (etc), but if people from interstate can't get tickets for the game, they wont come for the game.

HCC put money into North Melbourne to get them here. I think a Tas team will be a different thing.

As said, Intrastate tourism is also important. A number stay for the weekend.

So whether they arrive on a plane or a car matters little, as long as they stay. Some will come & go on the same day. Can't do much about that.

 

[Kwality]

The difference (for now at least), is that the WA plan was brought in along with a major expansion...When you add 30,000 seats, putting a small part of that aside for tourists still leaves the lions share of the extra seats for locals ...There might be a little grumbling, but for the most part, everyone is happy.

*IF* the Tas ground are expanded, it wont be by that much, and if you add 5000 seats, then put most, if not all of them all aside for tourists (maybe even more?), there might be some genuine complaints.

Before people start talking about even bigger expansions...Remember that relative to the local population, these are already big grounds. Bellerive already takes about 9% of the local population to fill it. Optus is closer to 2.5%, AO 3.5% (KP would be similar, but it has Melbourne just up the road, so a comparison to Hobart doesn't really hold up...It's more like YP in this respect, where 'the surrounding area' far outweighs the city itself, making the numbers a bit fuzzy depending on what you include...).

Anything is possible with a new stadium, but 80% of capacity wont vary it'll still be 80%. Grumbling will always occur from the 'I want ' crowd who want a prize seat for nothing 'IF I decide to go with or without my family or my mates'.
I'd suggest Tas is footy heartland like WA or SA and the first team their will pull strong support - its not a development State.

 

[Billy ray]

I wonder if they will try gold coast metricon stadium type pricing

 

[madmug]

I wonder if they will try gold coast metricon stadium type pricing

Which is?

 

[Billy ray]

Which is?

Very little GA. Basically like WA and SA. Most of the empty seats you see on TV are >$50

 

[BringBackTorps]

The 11 extra games would be just the 11 Tas home games in Tas. No extra games anywhere else.

Of course. As I previously stated, adding Tasmania will increase the H & A season from 198-209 games pa, an increase of 11 games.

I assume all the 11 Tas. home games will probably be played on Sat. or Sunday- to make it easier for Tas. fans to attend, as many might be driving long distances, and tourists are also coming from interstate.
Tasmania occupying these 11 weekend time slot will supplant current weekend slots. This means 11 new time slots (not on weekends) will need to be found. I think the 11 new time slots will be Thursday evenings (added to the 8 Thursday nights in 2019)- very valuable Prime Time.

 

[Gigantor]

The primary driver for that age bracket leaving Tasmania is work-related [2014 survey]. 45% of respondents responded that they wished to return to Tasmania when the opportunity arises.

Additionally, this study shows that 84% still consider themselves to have a strong connection to the state, with ~70% describing themselves as Tasmanian before their current state/country of residence, including even the label of Australian. I think that bodes pretty well for Tasmanians supporting their team from interstate.

As a Tasmanian expat myself you definitely find that there is a much higher level of "patriotism" amongst us than expats from other states.

All of that is fine, but I still say it would be a challenge attracting, and retaining, thirty 18-25 year olds (and that assumes your filling out the list with a dozen locals).

Apart from that, I wish the bid all the very best of luck.

 

[Blackhawk42]

All of that is fine, but I still say it would be a challenge attracting, and retaining, thirty 18-25 year olds (and that assumes your filling out the list with a dozen locals).

Apart from that, I wish the bid all the very best of luck.

I have a mate on a trip down there at the moment (who is 25) and he is super impressed by the beer scene. We are beer nerds too so that's pretty important. Just get the young boys into the craft beer scene and the retention takes care of itself.

 

[BringBackTorps]

If that timeslot was such a bonanza, they'd be playing then every week already... clearly Ch7 isn't willing[Debatable] to fork out enough to convince them to do it anyway.

Source? They paid $2.5M per year, with zero advertising benefit??? That seems...fortunate. (and unlikely to be repeated often).

1. Here is my source, as you requested, for the $2,500,000 pa GWS is being paid for stadium naming rights.

American investment gurus secretly put millions into GWS Giants

American bond traders Daniel Ivascyn and Marc Seidner, who are both executives of the global investment management firm Pimco, have become huge supports of the GWS Giants.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I requested your source, for your view that significantly (eg 11) more games could not be played at Docklands, due to concerns about ground condition issues. Can you provide it? (Also, the net increase in games, pa at Docklands, would probably be less than 11- as Docklands games would be switched from Sat./Sun. daytime).

2. In my post #1086, the Wiki article (under "Redevelopment") in the text, says Kardina Park has a capacity of c. 34,000- the original plans for 36,000 had to be reduced.
"Its capacity is said to be unable to exceed 34,000"

Despite sellouts, it hasn't, AFAIK, surpassed much above 32,000, according to this link.

GMHBA Stadium Crowds (Kardinia Park) | Austadiums

View a list of recent crowds and highest attendances for sports events at GMHBA Stadium.

www.austadiums.com

It is reasonable to compare the financial results & net financial benefits of Geelong & a new Tas. team. Do you dispute this- if so,on what basis?


3. You haven't addressed the issues in all my other questions I put to you, above, in previous posts.
In particular, how much would an extra 11 H & A games add to the broadcast rights $? (This would require 11 new timeslots).

And, if 11 extra timeslots were made for additional Thur. night games at Docklands (fully owned by the AFL), how much extra pa would the AFL make in DS naming rights, signage, Medallion Club & corporate boxes, general catering & beverages, underground car parking etc.?

4. IIRC, Footscray is being paid c. $300,000+ for each game played in Ballarat, even though Mars capacity is only c. 11,000. Do you agree?

And what are your views on the alleged comments by WBFC CEO A. Bains below- that WBFC "made c.$700,000" from its one game vs GC, in Ballarat, in 2018? Is this possible- revenues or net profits? Could a Tas. team achieve similar benefits for 1 home game?

I think the financial details ("multi million dollar sponsorship") of the Footscray games in Ballarat deal are in this Link. Behind a paywall, can anyone open it?

Western Bulldogs seal government Ballarat deal

The Western Bulldogs have landed a multi-million dollar sponsorship deal with the Victorian government that could see Ballarat host a home-and-away game as soon as 2017, and the Dogs play as many as three matches annually at Eureka Stadium in future.

www.theage.com.au

5. In this 19.8.2019 BF thread in the link below, in post #1976, a Dogs fan says that Ahmeet Bains, WBFC CEO, said at a Club function that WBFC made $700,000 from its one game in Ballarat, vs Gold Coast in 2018- & Bains also said at the 2019 game vs GCFC at Docklands, it only made $70,000 from DS.
The coterie Group might have contributed to the massive $700,000 return for the Ballarat game?

How could WBFC make c. $700,000 for the Ballarat vs GCFC game, when the crowd was less than 11,000...confusing, but it is probable that the Vic. govt. is providing many millions $ to Footscray- to promote tourism in the Ballarat Region? Can anyone provide the details?

Western Bulldogs and their partnership with Ballarat a success

Heard from the mouth of Ahmeet Bains himself at a function the other week that, to put it in perspective, we made $700k out of our game v Gold Coast in Ballarat last year. At the corresponding game against them this year at Marvel we made $70k. While the difference is that stark there’s a...

www.bigfooty.com

6. This is further evidence that a Tasmanian 19th team might be able to achieve VERY strong stadia financial returns if Bellarive & YP attract crowds averaging 25,000, in 28,000 stadia.
As twice in 1970 & 1979, the TFL GF's in Hobart had crowds of 24,413 & 24,968 respectively (when Hobart's population was much smaller), a good case can be made that Bellarive should be a 30,000 capacity stadium (& many MORE mainland AFL tourists would attend both in the future- probably hardly any mainlanders attended these 2 large 1970's GF crowds).

Close to a 30,000 attendance, it would attract even better stadium financial returns for the Tas. team. Nearly $900,000 per game, perhaps (cf Footscray being paid c. $300,000+ for a crowd of 11,000, or less).

 

[BringBackTorps]

This article states that GWS Giants stadium could have its capacity increased from the current 24,000 to 30,000, for only $20,000,000. I thought it would cost more than $20,000,000.

This is relevant for Tasmania since, if it is granted the 19th licence to enter the AFL, both Bellerive & YP must have new grandstands (each adding another c. 10,000 capacity) in their Outers- bringing capacity to at least 28,000 at each. What would it cost to add 10,000 seater grandstands at both? Or add 12,000 seater grandstands to both?

How many tourists, on average, are likely to attend from Melb. Clubs?
Because HFC was playing in Launny 4 games pa since 2012, the "novelty" would quickly wear off for HFC fans, when marketing a footy trip to Tas. to the same membership every year, for many years.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

IIRC, Giants Stadium cost c. $65,000,000 to build in 2012; & the AFL contributed c. $20,000,000. This seems cheap, when BankWest Stadium, capacity 30,000, cost $360,000,000 to build in 2019.

 

[Rob]

Very little GA. Basically like WA and SA. Most of the empty seats you see on TV are >$50

Well they're obviously not going to fund their operations on a premise that they will attract low crowds at low prices.

 

[Colonial]

This article states that GWS Giants stadium could have its capacity increased from the current 24,000 to 30,000, for only $20,000,000. I thought it would cost more than $20,000,000.

This is relevant for Tasmania since, if it is granted the 19th licence to enter the AFL, both Bellerive & YP must have new grandstands (each adding another c. 10,000 capacity) in their Outers- bringing capacity to at least 28,000 at each. What would it cost to add 10,000 seater grandstands at both? Or add 12,000 seater grandstands to both?

How many tourists are likely to attend from Melb. Club
Because HFC was playing there 4 games pa, the "novelty" would quickly wear off, when marketing a footy trip to Tas. to the same membership every year, for many years?

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

IIRC, Giants Stadium cost c. $65,000,000 to build in 2012; & the AFL contributed c. $20,000,000. This seems cheap, when BankWest Stadium, capacity 30,000, cost $360,000 to build in 2019.

Missing a few zeros on the Bankwest cost.

 

[Gigantor]

Similarly Carrara, which was already ear-marked for the Commonwealth Games, cost a fraction of that to build, and the AFL contributed about 8% of the total cost.

 

[madmug]

All of that is fine, but I still say it would be a challenge attracting, and retaining, thirty 18-25 year olds (and that assumes your filling out the list with a dozen locals).

Apart from that, I wish the bid all the very best of luck.

So, (& I'm asking this as a legitimate question) what is it, do you think that is the reason for this challenge? What specific issues do you see as making such retention difficult.?

In saying that, what would be the issues for other regional sports cities, & others that haven't been footy 'mainstream' areas.

ie, Townsville, GC, Newcastle, Western Sydney, Canberra, Geelong? What would be the pluses & minuses for these places?

 

[Gigantor]

So, (& I'm asking this as a legitimate question) what is it, do you think that is the reason for this challenge? What specific issues do you see as making such retention difficult.?

In saying that, what would be the issues for other regional sports cities, & others that haven't been footy 'mainstream' areas.

ie, Townsville, GC, Newcastle, Western Sydney, Canberra, Geelong? What would be the pluses & minuses for these places?

Sydney as a whole, being a world renowned city, appears to do ok attracting and retaining players, and that applies for all sports.

The Raiders went through a long stretch where they couldn't hold onto their players, even players from nearby regions. They have been able to overcome that recently, but I would suggest that it's an issue that will continue to arise from time to time.

Obviously Geelong is only an hour away from Melbourne, and has other attractions in the opposite direction.

Gold Coast issues as far as sporting teams go are well documented, although it has to be said that over many decades, local teams have done well at attracting footballers from the South at a semi-professional level.

It's not a stretch to suggest that if you can't get young blokes going to, and living on, the Gold Coast for an extended period, it's possible that Hobart might find it to be an even greater challenge.

It really isn't such an outlandish thought. People get emotional talking about such a topic, but it's got nothing to with how you or I view Hobart (I prefer a more quiet and smaller locale myself), it's about attracting and keeping thirty 18 to 25 year olds in a city they would never have considered living in, like, ever (at least most of them would have visited the Gold Coast during schoolies).

 

[madmug]

Sydney as a whole, being a world renowned city, appears to do ok attracting and retaining players, and that applies for all sports.

The Raiders went through a long stretch where they couldn't hold onto their players, even players from nearby regions. They have been able to overcome that recently, but I would suggest that it's an issue that will continue to arise from time to time.

Obviously Geelong is only an hour away from Melbourne, and has other attractions in the opposite direction.

Gold Coast issues as far as sporting teams go are well documented, although it has to be said that over many decades, local teams have done well at attracting footballers from the South at a semi-professional level.

It's not a stretch to suggest that if you can't get young blokes going to, and living on, the Gold Coast for an extended period, it's possible that Hobart might find it to be an even greater challenge.

It really isn't such an outlandish thought. People get emotional talking about such a topic, but it's got nothing to with how you or I view Hobart (I prefer a more quiet and smaller locale myself), it's about attracting and keeping thirty 18 to 25 year olds in a city they would never have considered living in, like, ever (at least most of them would have visited the Gold Coast during schoolies).

That's all fine, but you haven't really addressed the reasons.

I know its only an opinion, but what specifically are you saying?

Is it all about proximity to Melbourne/Sydney? What does 'proximity' give 18-25 yo if they were or were not born there?

I've lived & worked in various parts of Melbourne, Sydney & Brisbane. I still visit Sydney & Brisbane every couple of years or so, Melbourne not so much. I understand the geographics of those places.

When in Sydney I knew a guy that worked with the Swans. He said Plugger hated Melbourne. I think it was because of the goldfish bowl effect. I guess he found relative anonymity in Sydney. Apparently he also loved going bush with Paul Kelly, both country boys.

So I'm interested in the reasons. Or ones opinion what those reasons really are.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Similarly Carrara, which was already ear-marked for the Commonwealth Games, cost a fraction of that to build, and the AFL contributed about 8% of the total cost.

Carrara Stadium, capacity 25,000, completed 2011, cost $144,00,000 to build.
For the GC Commonwealth games, 10,000 temporary seats were added (cost ?) to bring capacity to 35,000- then dismantled after the Games, to revert to a 25,000 seat stadium.

Giants Stadium has the ability to add 6000 seats, at a current cost of $20,000,000; BankWest Stadium, capacity 30,000 cost $360,000,000 in 2019; the new Sydney Football Stadium, capacity c.45,000, is expected to cost c. $729,000,000 (not including demolition costs)
There seems major disparities in "cost per seat" in stadia construction- bigger stadia, with deeper foundations and/or underground car parks, much more expensive?

Carrara Stadium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lendlease booted as Sydney stadium builder for not meeting targets

The site of the new Sydney Football Stadium will be left as a giant hole in the ground for now as construction giant Lendlease is unable to meet the Government's targets for the rebuild.

www.abc.net.au

The Tas. Task Force for the 19th team will have to provide detailed estimates of the crowds/nos. of tourists expected at Bellarive & YP- it will be interesting to see their conclusions.

 

[Gigantor]

That's all fine, but you haven't really addressed the reasons.

I know its only an opinion, but what specifically are you saying?

Is it all about proximity to Melbourne/Sydney? What does 'proximity' give 18-25 yo if they were or were not born there?

I've lived & worked in various parts of Melbourne, Sydney & Brisbane. I still visit Sydney & Brisbane every couple of years or so, Melbourne not so much. I understand the geographics of those places.

When in Sydney I knew a guy that worked with the Swans. He said Plugger hated Melbourne. I think it was because of the goldfish bowl effect. I guess he found relative anonymity in Sydney. Apparently he also loved going bush with Paul Kelly, both country boys.

So I'm interested in the reasons. Or ones opinion what those reasons really are.

It's difficult for me to answer that because, like you, I'm not interested in big cities, but many are.

I'm certainly not the first to raise this as an issue, and I won't be the last, but just off the cuff, let us consider:

- for decades Tassie had enough trouble holding onto its own 18 to 25 year olds (across the whole population), I understand that may have eased in the recent past

- why do schoolies go to the Gold coast? why don't they travel to Hobart for schoolies week? there are boutique beers, Mona, a tour of Cascade, the Salamanca markets, good local produce....

- Hobart is exactly half the size of Canberra, and I reckon Canberra would face the same problem as well.

Of course there will be exceptions like Plugger, maybe even someone like Joe Daniher, but the fact remains that a minimum of 30 footballers would have to move and stay there. At any point in time, there will 2, or 3 or 4 working out a way to get back to the mainland. Maybe that won't be such a big deal. Maybe the team will just have to get used to a bigger revolving door than the one normally faced by other teams. Maybe it will be smaller revolving door than the Suns, or it might be around the same size.

Anyway, I wish the bid team the very best of luck.

 

[BringBackTorps]

abc.net.au 10.9.19

An analysis of the 50,000+ email "signatures" suggest that, perhaps, it can be concluded that 20-50% of these will actually buy memberships for the Tas. team.

Also, the article states
"...the word on the street" suggests the business case being built will almost certainly impress the powers that be, with the primary focus being to add value to the AFL (my emphases)".

Everyone (and their dog) seems to want a Tasmanian AFL team — will it convince the executive?

In a matter of weeks more than 50,000 virtual signatures have been added to an online petition supporting the formation of a Tasmanian AFL team, but it is unlikely to be enough to sway the AFL executive, writes Chris Rowbottom.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Walshawk]

Of course. As I previously stated, adding Tasmania will increase the H & A season from 198-209 games pa, an increase of 11 games.

I assume all the 11 Tas. home games will probably be played on Sat. or Sunday- to make it easier for Tas. fans to attend, as many might be driving long distances, and tourists are also coming from interstate.
Tasmania occupying these 11 weekend time slot will supplant current weekend slots. This means 11 new time slots (not on weekends) will need to be found. I think the 11 new time slots will be Thursday evenings (added to the 8 Thursday nights in 2019)- very valuable Prime Time.

Yet in post 1111 you again talk about 11 extra games at Docklands. I Don’t get it

 

[Carringbush2010]

30k actually.

That would mean the numbers have gone up 5k in 6 months, as unlikely as that is it's not the point. In any case they're not challenging North for membership numbers which I was replying to.

GIANTS Smash Membership Record - GWSGIANTS.com.au

The GIANTS have today broken their all time membership record, passing 25,000 members for the second consecutive year.

www.gwsgiants.com.au

.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That's all fine, but you haven't really addressed the reasons.

I know its only an opinion, but what specifically are you saying?

Is it all about proximity to Melbourne/Sydney? What does 'proximity' give 18-25 yo if they were or were not born there?

I've lived & worked in various parts of Melbourne, Sydney & Brisbane. I still visit Sydney & Brisbane every couple of years or so, Melbourne not so much. I understand the geographics of those places.

When in Sydney I knew a guy that worked with the Swans. He said Plugger hated Melbourne. I think it was because of the goldfish bowl effect. I guess he found relative anonymity in Sydney. Apparently he also loved going bush with Paul Kelly, both country boys.

So I'm interested in the reasons. Or ones opinion what those reasons really are.

It's difficult for me to answer that because, like you, I'm not interested in big cities, but many are.

I'm certainly not the first to raise this as an issue, and I won't be the last, but just off the cuff, let us consider:

- for decades Tassie had enough trouble holding onto its own 18 to 25 year olds (across the whole population), I understand that may have eased in the recent past

- why do schoolies go to the Gold coast? why don't they travel to Hobart for schoolies week? there are boutique beers, Mona, a tour of Cascade, the Salamanca markets, good local produce....

- Hobart is exactly half the size of Canberra, and I reckon Canberra would face the same problem as well.

Of course there will be exceptions like Plugger, maybe even someone like Joe Daniher, but the fact remains that a minimum of 30 footballers would have to move and stay there. At any point in time, there will 2, or 3 or 4 working out a way to get back to the mainland. Maybe that won't be such a big deal. Maybe the team will just have to get used to a bigger revolving door than the one normally faced by other teams. Maybe it will be smaller revolving door than the Suns, or it might be around the same size.

Anyway, I wish the bid team the very best of luck.

These arguments about retention are really drawing a long bow. Put yourself in the shoes of a budding 18 yo footballer, do you think living in Hobart or even Lonny is going to be a deal breaker to an AFL career?

Seriously any draft hopeful wouldn't be of sound mind if living in Tas was the one thing they would forego a career at the highest level for.

There's been mention of players exiting GC - that's not because of the location it's because of the club. Brisbane just up the road is now becoming a desired destination club not because of location it's because of the club.

I really find it difficult to believe retention of players is going to be an issue because of location.