List Mgmt. 2019 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy

[JC100]

Very happy with our dealings during the trade period.

Jacobs comes in as #1 ruck and is a big upgrade on Mumford. 3x AA and as recently as 2017. Takes a good contested mark and his tap work is second to non. Expect our stoppage work which was already a strength to go to another level. It allows mummy to play Simpsons role as backup ruck and fill the void until Flynn comes back from his knee.

Patton leaving is good business but sad to see him leave as an original and great clubman. If he gets his body right he will be very good for the hawks. 6-6-6 will play to his strengths when he does return.

Bonar hasn’t shown enough to justify his contract increase over the next two years. Without extensive injuries he wasn’t forcing his way into the best 22.

Draft wise I hope we can get ahead of the Green bid. Happy to forgo next years 1st to do so. I like the sound of Ash in terms of what we need now but if reports around Jackson are correct then I’m happy with that too.

We have a gun best 22 that is ready for the here and now (majority in their prime and contracted medium to long term) so it has to be about what can we add to our side now that makes us stronger.

 

[JC100]

I actually think we need to do it whatever it takes but we also need to find a ready made player that is able to play in the now.

Ash to me could play next year and allow Williams to add more speed and creativity to the midfield.

Zac is electric in the centre bounces and really gave us a different look when Leon played him there. Ash has the speed and body to play immediately, if not him Hayden Young as he also can fill that role, he is a deadly kick and also has good size.

I would be annoyed if we did all this to protect the Green bid and then brought in a project that is going to be running around in NEAFL next year. This isn’t a time to do anything cute and overrate our list, it’s a good list but we still get exposed particularly when certain players like Whitfield/Williams miss through injury.

We are in the window now and can not afford to bring in ready made mature talent so need to ensure we bring in difference makers that can press for selection during this period.

Agreed.

 

[Danny88]

We can't afford to waste picks though. Who gave him such a large contract anyway

His salary was reportedly around the 400k mark. Trade radio mentioned the average salary next year was going to be 380-390k so it really isn’t that exorbitant. I would think it is pretty common to offer extensions to draftees (especially first round draftees) along these lines

 

[Andre the Giant]

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Fellas, seems like Melbourne are being campaigners and demanding a massive return on pick 3.

One the guys on our board had a brilliant pick park idea and it may come down to whether you guys would prefer 3 or 10 and next years first (since that seems to be the rumoured Mebourne trade required to get you 3).

If I understand the machinations

1) We trade a future 1st for your pick 6
2) Green is bid on
3) We Pick up a player at 6 and 7
4) Tell Melbourne and Carlton not to be campaigners
5) Trade 10 back to you.

You keep the future 1st but have 10 instead of 3 - you may prefer losing the future 1st and getting 3.

The problem here is that Melbourne might feel slighted after not getting your pick and bid on Henry at 8 which would stuff it all up.

Does anyone know if we'd be able to trade pick 10 without it actually being pick 10s turn...

 

[rgauci]

Hello friends:

Is this legal? And does it interest you?

Step 1: Trade us pick 6 for Fremantle future 1st

Step 2: Await Green bid (assume pick 5)

Step 3: We use pick 6,7 (so we get ahead of Liam Henry bid)

Step 4: We trade you pick 10 and sweetener for our future 1st back

Net gain: we both get to use later picks on top 15 prospects. Fremantle move up 4 slots in the draft.

losses: you lose 4 spots in the draft, we lose a ‘sweetener’

Assumptions: Green is bid before pick 10, Henry is not bid in the top 5. You’d prefer to drop 4 spots in the draft than trade up to pick 3.

EDIT: I should read the last post before posting mine, Melbourne feeling jaded at pick 8 won’t influence a Henry bid, Snuff, because we’ve already made our selections. They can bid at 8, we’ll trade back 10 between picks 6 and 7.

 

[dlanod]

The same pick can't come back.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The same pick can't come back.

Does that apply to the future picks coming back?

GWS would be getting 10 back instead of 6, it would be a different pick

 

[Orange Agent]

We can't afford to waste picks though. Who gave him such a large contract anyway

McCartney

 

[Andre the Giant]

McCartney

It’s important to consider that 400k is just above the average wage so to lock that in early in an early pick is probably not a bad punt when that player could command 500k if they have a good first year.

It also gives a sense of security to the players and helps to breed comradery in the group.

I’m pretty sure Bonar is roommates at Brekky Point with Brent Daniels and are close mates which has been helpful in his development and ultimately that has led him to sign on.

Both Sam Taylor and Brent Daniels extended and I would imagine on the same deal, both of them would command more than 400k on the open market. Sometimes you win on these deals sometimes you lose.

I don’t mind these deals at all myself, I’m more against the 7 year plus deals as they typically end in tears.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

We can't afford to waste picks though.

Meh,

You’re never going to get every pick working out - you get a couple right each year, that’s enough. Case in point, the 2017 draft where we picked up Bonar, Taylor, Daniels, Langdon & Shipley

Taylor & Daniels are best 22, Langdon was more than handy before he got injured and Shipley just made the NEAFL team of the year. 4 out of 5 isn’t a bad strike rate - it only looks “bad” because Bonar was the highest pick.

But every club wastes a pick or two or three each year because not every draftee makes it, or fits in, at the club. Sometimes the wasted pick is late, sometimes it’s early.

Woulda shoulda coulda - it’s all swings and roundabouts.

Really the draft number is ultimately irrelevant - just look at Hawthorn, who in 2006 took Mitch Thorp at 6 (just before Joel Selwood at 7) and Matt Suckling at pick 22 in the rookie draft - one played 2 games, the other 102 and 2 flags before moving on to the dogs.

Yeah, we missed on Bonar - sort of (might have been different if our midfield didn’t bat as deep) but we’ve also missed on a heap of other players over the journey (O’Rourke / Jacksch anyone?) but then again so has every other team in the league - it’s what you do with the players you keep (whatever draft number they have in the history books) that counts.

And 2017 looks like it will be one of our strongest drafts despite the Bonar pick.

 

[dlanod]

Does that apply to the future picks coming back?

GWS would be getting 10 back instead of 6, it would be a different pick

Your's is probably fine, the other guy immediately before me had Freo's back being traded back to them.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

Apologies up front for the long post...

Following on from my earlier post about hits and misses in the draft and how sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t, but as long as you get a couple each year you’re doing all right; I decided to have a closer look at our drafting history - rate them ticks / big ticks and busts.

Some years have been better than others - 2012 wasn’t very good apart from Whitfield and Williams at either end of the spectrum thus illustrating my point nicely - and lets never talk about 2014 ever again.

By my reckoning of the 63 picks we’ve had in the draft, preseason draft and Rookie drafts - 24 (38%) have been busts with the jury still out on at least 5 recent ones.

I don’t know... what do you think?

2011
Patton - 1 - tick
Coniglio - 2 - big tick
Tyson - 3 - got us Kelly - tick
Hoskin-Elliot - 4 - tick(ish)
Buntine - 5 - tick(ish)
Haynes - 7 - big tick
Tomlinson - 9 - tick
Sumner - 10 - bust
Greene - 11 - big tick
Adams - 13 - got us Shaw - tick
Smith - 14 - tick
Downie -56 - bust
O’hAilpin - 79 - bust(ish)
McDonald - 87 - tick
Frost - Rookie 1 - bust

2012
Whitfield - 1 - big tick
O’Rourke - 2 - bust
Plowman - 3 - bust
Jaksch - 12 - bust
Corr - 14 - tick
Stewart - 27 - bust
Thornton - Preseason 1 - total bust
Brogan - preseason 12 - tick
Redfern - Rookie 51 - bust
Williams - Rookie 54 - big tick

2013
Boyd - 1 - bust
Kelly - 2 - big tick
McCarthy - 14 - bust
Lobb - 29 - tick
Lamb - preseason 1 - bust
Schulz - Rookie 1 - shoulda stayed delisted - total bust

2014
Pickett - 4 - bust
Marchbank - 6 - bust
Ahern - 7 - bust
McKenna - 23 - bust
Steele - 24 - bust(ish) / tick(ish)
Finlayson - 85 - tick (eventually)

2015
Hopper - 7 - tick / big(ish) tick
Kennedy - 13 - bust
Himmleberg - 16 - tick / big(ish) tick
Flynn - 41 - jury is still out
Reid - Rookie 8 - tick
Lloyd - Rookie 26 - tick

2016
Taranto - 2 - big tick
Setterfield - 5 - bust
Perryman - 14 - tick
Cumming - 20 - tick(ish)
Tiziani - 54 - bust
De Boer - 58 - big tick
Mzungu - Rookie 15 - bust(ish)

2017
Bonar - 11 - bust
Daniels - 27 - tick
Taylor - 28 - tick
Langdon - 56 - tick
Shipley - 64 - tick(ish)
Buckley, D - Rookie 15 - bust
Reid - Rookie 29 - tick (again)

2018
Caldwell - 11 - jury still out
Hately - 14 - tick(ish)
O’Halloran - 22 - jury still out
Hill - 24 - tick(ish)
Briggs - 34 - jury still out / tick for being an academy kid
Idun - 61 - jury still out

 

[replicant]

I think we will trade up. But again we are bent over the barrel on this one. Pay overs and trade up.... dont pay overs and lose pick 6 for Green.

I think we will pay the overs... can see us losing next years 1st (likely) or second (hope so) to get it done.

Doesn't it mess you up a bit for next year either way? E.g. you trade 6 + 2020 1st for 3. That lets you get in front of Greene, but then when you match the bid for him at 5 (for example), it takes every other pick you have, plus puts you in deficit for next year as well. So you would lose both your 2020 1st (the the Dees) plus your 2020 2nd (carryover points).

I guess it depends how you value this years and next years draftees. If there is one you really rate in the top 5 it may be worthwhile. Otherwise it might be better to get Greene this year with 6, and then just keep your 2020 1st and 2nd.

Will be interesting to see what you guys do.

 

[Danny88]

Doesn't it mess you up a bit for next year either way? E.g. you trade 6 + 2020 1st for 3. That lets you get in front of Greene, but then when you match the bid for him at 5 (for example), it takes every other pick you have, plus puts you in deficit for next year as well. So you would lose both your 2020 1st (the the Dees) plus your 2020 2nd (carryover points).

I guess it depends how you value this years and next years draftees. If there is one you really rate in the top 5 it may be worthwhile. Otherwise it might be better to get Greene this year with 6, and then just keep your 2020 1st and 2nd.

Will be interesting to see what you guys do.

I would anticipate we get something back in that circumstance

So realistically it would be 6+next year’s first for 3 and a second rounder this year or next with maybe a 4th rounder as well

 

[Orange Agent]

Puopolo has re-signed at the Hawks. We just can't land those big fish, maybe time to sack the whole list management team and start again.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Puopolo has re-signed at the Hawks. We just can't land those big fish, maybe time to sack the whole list management team and start again.

I haven’t read through all the posts so unsure if you’re being sarcastic but we don’t need Puopolo. Well served with small forwards, we need some speed through the midfield and a good user down back. If we can afford a cheap mature player Danny’s suggestion of Murray makes the most sense.

 

[dlanod]

I haven’t read through all the posts so unsure if you’re being sarcastic but we don’t need Puopolo. Well served with small forwards, we need some speed through the midfield and a good user down back. If we can afford a cheap mature player Danny’s suggestion of Murray makes the most sense.

Pretty sure it was a sarcastic comment aimed at the Hawthorn posters who kept trying to force Puopolo down our throat over the last couple of years.

 

[Giant Pete]

Haynes Davis Williams
Ward Taylor Whitfield
Kelly Coniglio Taranto
Finlayson Cameron Greene
Hill HH Daniels
Jacobs Hopper DeBoer
Caldwell Hately Perryman Reid

I’d love to see this lineup in Rd 1 next year.

 

[Giant Strides]

Haynes Davis Williams
Ward Taylor Whitfield
Kelly Coniglio Taranto
Finlayson Cameron Greene
Hill HH Daniels
Jacobs Hopper DeBoer
Caldwell Hately Perryman Reid

I’d love to see this lineup in Rd 1 next year.

No Shaw in first round?

 

[Giant Pete]

No Shaw in first round?

I’d rather us go without him.

 

[Giant Strides]

I’d rather us go without him.

We certainly need to get to that point - but if we have asked him to play on, I expect he'll go out (or have some games as 'rested') later in the year rather than first up (unless he has an injury, or needs extra time to recover between seasons).

You've named Whitfield in the back half line - is he your Heater replacement or do you perceive someone else specifically filling that role?

 

[Danny88]

Haynes Davis Williams
Ward Taylor Whitfield
Kelly Coniglio Taranto
Finlayson Cameron Greene
Hill HH Daniels
Jacobs Hopper DeBoer
Caldwell Hately Perryman Reid

I’d love to see this lineup in Rd 1 next year.

Taranto shouldn’t be playing wing. Won a B&F playing inside mid

Needs to stay there

But I love ward at half back

Shaw in for one of Caldwell/Hately

 

[sydney_gws]

[Qd"Ichabod Noodle, post: 63399231, member: 124791"]
Apologies up front for the long post...

2013
Boyd - 1 - bust
Kelly - 2 - big tick
McCarthy - 14 - bust
Lobb - 29 - tick
Lamb - preseason 1 - bust
Schulz - Rookie 1 - shoulda stayed delisted - total bust

2014
Pickett - 4 - bust
Marchbank - 6 - bust
Ahern - 7 - bust
McKenna - 23 - bust
Steele - 24 - bust(ish) / tick(ish)
Finlayson - 85 - tick (eventually)
[/QUOTE]

I don't think Boyd was a bust. Got us 6 and Griffin, who helped for 70 or so games. It was the pick 6 itself that was the bust. Otherwise, a very good summary of our drafting.

 

[Giant Pete]

We certainly need to get to that point - but if we have asked him to play on, I expect he'll go out (or have some games as 'rested') later in the year rather than first up (unless he has an injury, or needs extra time to recover between seasons).

You've named Whitfield in the back half line - is he your Heater replacement or do you perceive someone else specifically filling that role?

I think I just like the idea of flexibility. Ward, Williams and Whitfield are all great kicks. They could rotate between the midfield and the backline.
The other benefit is I think it will help prolong Cals career. I think AFL teams in general don’t think smart enough when it comes to that.
I’m pretty sure Heater will play on and no doubt he will be there rd 1. I’m just going with what I’d prefer.