The possibility of Essendon innocence: a travesty of justice or conspiracy theory for the ages?

[Ancient Tiger]

Essendon I'm sure do know the truth, as does Dank. They opened their door to ASADA and the AFL. If anyone is hiding anything it's the latter.

They had to play within the WADA guidelines, they appealed to the highest legal avenue afforded within those guidelines.
Who are they going to sue? Dank? He was not found guilty of injecting banned substances into the Essendon players. What exactly are they going to sue him for? They settled with the club regarding WorkSafe. Until they clear their name, there is no one else they can sue.

Nathan Lovett Murray may appear to be fighting a one man war at the moment, but it only takes one to unravel the mess.

Dank can still be charged with assault by the players. He has never been found innocent in a court of law.

 

[blackshadow]

We're shivering in fear

No you're just an idiotic windbag crying into your weeties.

 

[Bombfire]

Dank can still be charged with assault by the players. He has never been found innocent in a court of law.

On what grounds are the cops going to charge Dank with assault?

 

[Ancient Tiger]

On what grounds are the cops going to charge Dank with assault?

On the grounds he injected players with banned substances against their will. I know he lied to them (or more accurately, did not tell them the truth) about what he was injecting them with.

 

[ChipnPotato]

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!
I could have typed that out too! That's almost as good as the photo of a photo!
Where are the receipts to show where he purchased the thymomodulin from? Did he just push the drugs out of his arse? There was no evidence at all that he bought it from anywhere. None. Essendon actually argued he used TA1 anyway, not thymomodulin.

You see.. If one wanted to cheat they would source a legal substances with a receipt, make believe detail, schedule of injections and backed up by a fake history log (probably hand written in a log book). They would then destroy the legal 'substance', source the 'bad stuff' on the low down and jab themselves to their eyeballs because according to you, they can't be detected anyway. This hypothetical scenario could be happening today with any player, at any club.

Lance Armstrong tested positive and his Doctor faked a medical condition by signing a 'piece of paper' to get him off.

A schedule, however detailed, a logbook or an invoice for a purchase, do not imply that an injection has occurred and the substance purported has transferred into the athlete's bloodstream. They are mutually exclusive and one action does not equate into the other automatically.

If you cannot understand that the only purchases ever made and sourced by Charters for Dank were of TB4 and there was evidence provided for that drug, you are just as bad at defending the players as their hapless lawyers.

You seem to be fixated that there is no alternative scenario. You are talking about a Chinese production facility; courier from China to Australia; Australian Customs; different courier from Australia (who removed the label and likely fried the substance with natural light) to the Como Compounding Pharmacy; Como to Dank and finally Dank to Essendon - allegedly? The product would have changed hands at least 6 times. Assuming this is the product that made it to Essendon (never proven by anybody - ASADA, AFL-ADT, WADA or CAS), there are six points of possible deviation this peptide could've experienced.

The customs declaration form stated Thymosin. The Como dispatch form stated Thymosin. The consent forms stated Thymosin. In their interview, the players that were injected with Thymosin, stated 'Thymosin'. The photo of the photo of the vial stated Thymomodulin. Dank's spreadsheet stated Thymomodulin. Dank's schedule of injections stated Thymomodulin. Steven Wyatt's (ASADA employee) email established that ASADA and WADA (in 2012) referred to Thymosin and Thymomodulin, interchangeably. Dank's texts between himself and Robinson stated Thymosin. Dank's texts between himself and the Melbourne FC Doctor stated Thymomodulin and Thymosin. Dank referred to the substance injected into Essendon players as an 'immune booster', this is Thymomodulin. There are many more examples of evidence that state the word Thymosin or the biochemical nature of Thymomodulin.

There is no proof or evidence for the substance Thymosin Beta 4. The acronym 'B4' was inserted by ASADA themselves, to manipulate and corrupt the evidence. You say you have evidence, but ASADA and WADA clearly didn't, hence they bypassed having to prove this in the CAS hearing.

If the AFL didn't tap Essendon to self incriminate, ASADA would have no jurisdiction to step on the premise in the capacity that ensued. ASADA had no evidence to compel the players to investigate or provide an interview. It relied on the AFL to instigate as the AFL owned their contract. Without the interview, which didn't follow standard process, there would have been no infraction notices issued. No players would have been banned. There is your evidence.

Otherwise stop referring to it and show us this evidence, post it.

 

[ChipnPotato]

On the grounds he injected players with banned substances against their will. I know he lied to them (or more accurately, did not tell them the truth) about what he was injecting them with.

The players would need proof to establish such an accusation, otherwise Dank could counter sue them, considering he was cleared by the AFL-ADT for this.

 

[ChipnPotato]

Isn't he the one suing Essendon for the damage these peptides might have done to his (then) unborn child?

I'm referring to his request for the Freedom of Information release. It is he, who is requesting the information, to clear his name.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

You see.. If one wanted to cheat they would source a legal substances with a receipt, make believe detail, schedule of injections and backed up by a fake history log (probably hand written in a log book). They would then destroy the legal 'substance', source the 'bad stuff' on the low down and jab themselves to their eyeballs because according to you, they can't be detected anyway. This hypothetical scenario could be happening today with any player, at any club.

Lance Armstrong tested positive and his Doctor faked a medical condition by signing a 'piece of paper' to get him off.

A schedule, however detailed, a logbook or an invoice for a purchase, do not imply that an injection has occurred and the substance purported has transferred into the athlete's bloodstream. They are mutually exclusive and one action does not equate into the other automatically.


You seem to be fixated that there is no alternative scenario. You are talking about a Chinese production facility; courier from China to Australia; Australian Customs; different courier from Australia (who removed the label and likely fried the substance with natural light) to the Como Compounding Pharmacy; Como to Dank and finally Dank to Essendon - allegedly? The product would have changed hands at least 6 times. Assuming this is the product that made it to Essendon (never proven by anybody - ASADA, AFL-ADT, WADA or CAS), there are six points of possible deviation this peptide could've experienced.

The customs declaration form stated Thymosin. The Como dispatch form stated Thymosin. The consent forms stated Thymosin. In their interview, the players that were injected with Thymosin, stated 'Thymosin'. The photo of the photo of the vial stated Thymomodulin. Dank's spreadsheet stated Thymomodulin. Dank's schedule of injections stated Thymomodulin. Steven Wyatt's (ASADA employee) email established that ASADA and WADA (in 2012) referred to Thymosin and Thymomodulin, interchangeably. Dank's texts between himself and Robinson stated Thymosin. Dank's texts between himself and the Melbourne FC Doctor stated Thymomodulin and Thymosin. Dank referred to the substance injected into Essendon players as an 'immune booster', this is Thymomodulin. There are many more examples of evidence that state the word Thymosin or the biochemical nature of Thymomodulin.

There is no proof or evidence for the substance Thymosin Beta 4. The acronym 'B4' was inserted by ASADA themselves, to manipulate and corrupt the evidence. You say you have evidence, but ASADA and WADA clearly didn't, hence they bypassed having to prove this in the CAS hearing.

If the AFL didn't tap Essendon to self incriminate, ASADA would have no jurisdiction to step on the premise in the capacity that ensued. ASADA had no evidence to compel the players to investigate or provide an interview. It relied on the AFL to instigate as the AFL owned their contract. Without the interview, which didn't follow standard process, there would have been no infraction notices issued. No players would have been banned. There is your evidence.

Otherwise stop referring to it and show us this evidence, post it.

Have you debunked this one, where Dank admits that it was tb4?

Dank's stunning admission

Australia’s most infamous sports scientist paused for a moment before erupting. ''That’s just mind-blowing.''

www.theage.com.au

 

[Ancient Tiger]

The players would need proof to establish such an accusation, otherwise Dank could counter sue them, considering he was cleared by the AFL-ADT.

The proof is they were convicted of taking banned drugs and they stipulated they didn’t want any prohibited substances. There is evidence the police could get because they have powers ASADA don’t. I know where they can look too.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

You see.. If one wanted to cheat they would source a legal substances with a receipt, make believe detail, schedule of injections and backed up by a fake history log (probably hand written in a log book). They would then destroy the legal 'substance', source the 'bad stuff' on the low down and jab themselves to their eyeballs because according to you, they can't be detected anyway. This hypothetical scenario could be happening today with any player, at any club.

Lance Armstrong tested positive and his Doctor faked a medical condition by signing a 'piece of paper' to get him off.

A schedule, however detailed, a logbook or an invoice for a purchase, do not imply that an injection has occurred and the substance purported has transferred into the athlete's bloodstream. They are mutually exclusive and one action does not equate into the other automatically.


You seem to be fixated that there is no alternative scenario. You are talking about a Chinese production facility; courier from China to Australia; Australian Customs; different courier from Australia (who removed the label and likely fried the substance with natural light) to the Como Compounding Pharmacy; Como to Dank and finally Dank to Essendon - allegedly? The product would have changed hands at least 6 times. Assuming this is the product that made it to Essendon (never proven by anybody - ASADA, AFL-ADT, WADA or CAS), there are six points of possible deviation this peptide could've experienced.

The customs declaration form stated Thymosin. The Como dispatch form stated Thymosin. The consent forms stated Thymosin. In their interview, the players that were injected with Thymosin, stated 'Thymosin'. The photo of the photo of the vial stated Thymomodulin. Dank's spreadsheet stated Thymomodulin. Dank's schedule of injections stated Thymomodulin. Steven Wyatt's (ASADA employee) email established that ASADA and WADA (in 2012) referred to Thymosin and Thymomodulin, interchangeably. Dank's texts between himself and Robinson stated Thymosin. Dank's texts between himself and the Melbourne FC Doctor stated Thymomodulin and Thymosin. Dank referred to the substance injected into Essendon players as an 'immune booster', this is Thymomodulin. There are many more examples of evidence that state the word Thymosin or the biochemical nature of Thymomodulin.

There is no proof or evidence for the substance Thymosin Beta 4. The acronym 'B4' was inserted by ASADA themselves, to manipulate and corrupt the evidence. You say you have evidence, but ASADA and WADA clearly didn't, hence they bypassed having to prove this in the CAS hearing.

If the AFL didn't tap Essendon to self incriminate, ASADA would have no jurisdiction to step on the premise in the capacity that ensued. ASADA had no evidence to compel the players to investigate or provide an interview. It relied on the AFL to instigate as the AFL owned their contract. Without the interview, which didn't follow standard process, there would have been no infraction notices issued. No players would have been banned. There is your evidence.

Otherwise stop referring to it and show us this evidence, post it.

You just don’t understand basic pharmacology.

Drug names are specific. Dank has always equated thymosin with thymosin beta 4. Anything he ever advertised on the MRC website that was named thymosin was ALWAYS thymosin beta 4. They were never thymomodulin.

Drug doses are specific. Thymomodulin is dosed in milligrams (mg). The drug protocol had listed thymomodulin as 1.5 IU subcut. That is a dosage form that is not associated with thymomodulin. It does not equate to how it’s given subcutaneously. To make things even more obviously shady, the photo of a photo had the ampoule of "thymomodulin" in micrograms per ml. That is the dosage form of thymosin beta 4. It definitely isn’t in IU (international units) on the label, as shonky as the label is and supposedly as it was to be administered.

All this "evidence" only points to one thing. Dank used thymosin beta 4 and disguised it by calling it thymomodulin. He didn’t even know the dose of thymomodulin so how could he administer it? The ampoule is actually TB4 but with a fake label just changing the name but amateurishly keeping the correct dosage of TB4 on it.


This is so obvious that only ignorant people like yourself cannot see the truth. Dank is a very poor snake oil salesman. He might convince amateurs and have you drinking the Kool-Aid but anyone who knows anything about pharmacology can see right through him.

When you get your head around such basic errors and facts presented, get back to me.

 

[ChipnPotato]

Have you debunked this one, where Dank admits that it was tb4?

Dank's stunning admission

Australia’s most infamous sports scientist paused for a moment before erupting. ''That’s just mind-blowing.''

www.theage.com.au

Yeah I have actually. I don't hold the reporter in high regard, it's fair to say, or that article.

Same interview, same reporter, differently worded article, no mention of TB4, 1 year earlier, 2 days after the interview:

Hird injected banned boosters: Dank

Essendon coach James Hird has been accused of injecting a WADA blacklisted drug in a program where his players were given another substance anti-doping regulators now say should be banned.

www.theage.com.au

 

[blackshadow]

I don't hold the reporter in high regard

Only one of the finest investigative journos in the country.

7 Walkleys says he's held in extremely high regard despite what some deluded windbag thinks.

 

[ChipnPotato]

You just don’t understand basic pharmacology.

Drug names are specific. Dank has always equated thymosin with thymosin beta 4. Anything he ever advertised on the MRC website that was named thymosin was ALWAYS thymosin beta 4. They were never thymomodulin.

Drug doses are specific. Thymomodulin is dosed in milligrams (mg). The drug protocol had listed thymomodulin as 1.5 IU subcut. That is a dosage form that is not associated with thymomodulin. It does not equate to how it’s given subcutaneously. To make things even more obviously shady, the photo of a photo had the ampoule of "thymomodulin" in micrograms per ml. That is the dosage form of thymosin beta 4. It definitely isn’t in IU (international units) on the label, as shonky as the label is and supposedly as it was to be administered.

All this "evidence" only points to one thing. Dank used thymosin beta 4 and disguised it by calling it thymomodulin. He didn’t even know the dose of thymomodulin so how could he administer it? The ampoule is actually TB4 but with a fake label just changing the name but amateurishly keeping the correct dosage of TB4 on it.


This is so obvious that only ignorant people like yourself cannot see the truth. Dank is a very poor snake oil salesman. He might convince amateurs and have you drinking the Kool-Aid but anyone who knows anything about pharmacology can see right through him.

When you get your head around such basic errors and facts presented, get back to me.

Thanks for the lesson in pharmacology, let's just call it a day so we can stop going around in circles. You have your viewpoint on what's inside the ampule based on a label that was removed by the courier, reattached by somebody else and maybe injected into some or all players. You have your concerns around the dosage displayed on the label or in Dank's paperwork. I understand this view and I can acknowledge there is a possibility for this to have occurred.

I'm saying it's also possible that the substance maybe wasn't injected into any player and perhaps something else, legal, was. Your 'evidence' is at best a contradiction to his reference of Thymomodulin and the physiological characterisation as an immune booster. Thus, there is no clear evidence, it's all grey. The pharmacist that compounded it, couldn't confirm it himself. The circumstantial evidence cannot exclusively prove either argument.

The manipulation of evidence from ASADA is bewildering and only raises the possibility that the players were most likely framed. If the likelihood they were duped was probable or even highly probable, you still need valid evidence to prove it.

 

[ChipnPotato]

Only one of the finest investigative journos in the country.

7 Walkleys says he's held in extremely high regard despite what some deluded windbag thinks.

I told you, he deserves an 8th Walkley award for his scoop on Dank. It only took him 426 days and two articles to realise he had the dirt on him.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Thanks for the lesson in pharmacology, let's just call it a day so we can stop going around in circles. You have your viewpoint on what's inside the ampule based on a label that was removed by the courier, reattached by somebody else and maybe injected into some players. You have your concerns around the dosage displayed on the label or in Dank's paperwork. I understand this view and I can acknowledge there is a possibility for this to have occurred.

I'm saying it's also possible that the substance maybe wasn't injected into every player and perhaps something else, legal, was. Your 'evidence' is at best a contradiction to his reference of Thymomodulin and the physiological characterisation as an immune booster. Thus, there is no clear evidence, it's all grey. The pharmacist that compounded it, couldn't confirm it himself. The circumstantial evidence cannot exclusively prove either argument.

The manipulation of evidence from ASADA is bewildering and only raises the possibility that the players were most likely framed. If the likelihood they were duped was probable or even highly probable, you still need valid evidence to prove it.

All thymosins have immune boosting properties. It's just that TB4 has other properties whiich put it into the S2 classification. Dank talked about using thymosin for recovery. Go to https://peptidesonline.com/peptides-for-muscle-and-injury-recovery and you will find thymosin, the only one being thymosin beta 4. No mention of thymomodulin.

You keep on saying “maybe" the substance wasn’t injected into every player. This didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The panel only needed to be comfortably satisfied. I keep on giving you facts that show Dank was not giving thymomodulin. You also ignore the fact that even Essendon didn’t argue that they got thymomodulin. They said it was thymosin alpha 1, a completely different drug. Again they couldn’t produce any records that indicated that was purchased.

So with no evidence given that an alternative permitted drug was given, and with players getting injections for the sole purpose of improving sporting performance, I can see why the panel of the CAS was comfortably satisfied that the players received the thymosin they had consented to, the only likely one being thymosin beta 4. It didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Just imagine if Essendon was a Russian athletic team or a Chinese athletic team. A "sports scientist" then put them on an injection program to improve their performance. Imagine if no purchase orders or invoices could be presented to at least give us a possibility of knowing what may have been given. I bet you you would be convinced they were being given PEDs. For the CAS, Essendon were looked at in the same way.

 

[yaco55]

And yet one is purely the main author of the original WADA code. Hes not one of the guys who judges it. Unlike the other guy. Theres a big difference.

Richard Young is a anti-doping lawyer like David Grace - An anti-doping lawyer should be allowed to appear at any anti-doping tribunal - You shouldn't be able to pick and choose.

 

[yaco55]

All thymosins have immune boosting properties. It's just that TB4 has other properties whiich put it into the S2 classification. Dank talked about using thymosin for recovery. Go to https://peptidesonline.com/peptides-for-muscle-and-injury-recovery and you will find thymosin, the only one being thymosin beta 4. No mention of thymomodulin.

You keep on saying “maybe" the substance wasn’t injected into every player. This didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The panel only needed to be comfortably satisfied. I keep on giving you facts that show Dank was not giving thymomodulin. You also ignore the fact that even Essendon didn’t argue that they got thymomodulin. They said it was thymosin alpha 1, a completely different drug. Again they couldn’t produce any records that indicated that was purchased.

So with no evidence given that an alternative permitted drug was given, and with players getting injections for the sole purpose of improving sporting performance, I can see why the panel of the CAS was comfortably satisfied that the players received the thymosin they had consented to, the only likely one being thymosin beta 4. It didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Just imagine if Essendon was a Russian athletic team or a Chinese athletic team. A "sports scientist" then put them on an injection program to improve their performance. Imagine if no purchase orders or invoices could be presented to at least give us a possibility of knowing what may have been given. I bet you you would be convinced they were being given PEDs. For the CAS, Essendon were looked at in the same way.

I am certain there are around 27 types of thymosin - It appears that the CAS arbitrators weren't interested in exploring the issue.

 

[yaco55]

This is one of the few things we've ever agreed on.

But I laugh every time a numpty like Brucie or some hirdite starts clamouring for a RC because it would totally fu** that drug cheating club.

I suggest that next time you quote my full post which also excluded a Senate Enquiry and possible reasons for this situation - Context is important.

 

[yaco55]

On the grounds he injected players with banned substances against their will. I know he lied to them (or more accurately, did not tell them the truth) about what he was injecting them with.

You could argue like a few that Dank injected players with placebo type products to defraud EFC - You have a stronger case for fraud as opposed to assault.

 

[yaco55]

The proof is they were convicted of taking banned drugs and they stipulated they didn’t want any prohibited substances. There is evidence the police could get because they have powers ASADA don’t. I know where they can look too.

You have been previously told - The AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal found Dank not guilty of administering TB4 to EFC players - Of course this leads to another mystery in how CAS found the EFC34 guilty of being administered TB4, yet Dank has never been found guilty of administering TB4 to any athlete.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

You have been previously told - The AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal found Dank not guilty of administering TB4 to EFC players - Of course this leads to another mystery in how CAS found the EFC34 guilty of being administered TB4, yet Dank has never been found guilty of administering TB4 to any athlete.

The AFL could hardly give Dank a guilty verdict and then let the players off.

And yet there are even more puzzling things here. Dank was found not guilty but somehow he got a life ban from WADA type sports because of trafficking banned substances. It is bizarre that they could reach such a verdict especially since he was allowed to handle banned substances legally in his business with people not playing professional sport.....

So this leads to the only plausible explanation here which is the AFL knew he was guilty but couldn’t punish him directly as then they would have to punish the players. Since they wanted to avoid the latter, they had to find him not guilty of administering TB4.

 

[blackshadow]

The AFL could hardly give Dank a guilty verdict and then let the players off.

And yet there are even more puzzling things here. Dank was found not guilty but somehow he got a life ban from WADA type sports because of trafficking banned substances. It is bizarre that they could reach such a verdict especially since he was allowed to handle banned substances legally in his business with people not playing professional sport.....

So this leads to the only plausible explanation here which is the AFL knew he was guilty but couldn’t punish him directly as then they would have to punish the players. Since they wanted to avoid the latter, they had to find him not guilty of administering TB4.

The AFL tied themselves in knots to get the players and Essendon off with a slap on the wrist but at the same time appear to throw Dank to the wolves.

I wonder what would have been found at Essendon if the AFL hadn't tipped off Essendon and given them a chance to lose the most incriminating evidence.

 

[Arctic fox]

All thymosins have immune boosting properties. It's just that TB4 has other properties whiich put it into the S2 classification. Dank talked about using thymosin for recovery. Go to https://peptidesonline.com/peptides-for-muscle-and-injury-recovery and you will find thymosin, the only one being thymosin beta 4. No mention of thymomodulin.

You keep on saying “maybe" the substance wasn’t injected into every player. This didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The panel only needed to be comfortably satisfied. I keep on giving you facts that show Dank was not giving thymomodulin. You also ignore the fact that even Essendon didn’t argue that they got thymomodulin. They said it was thymosin alpha 1, a completely different drug. Again they couldn’t produce any records that indicated that was purchased.

So with no evidence given that an alternative permitted drug was given, and with players getting injections for the sole purpose of improving sporting performance, I can see why the panel of the CAS was comfortably satisfied that the players received the thymosin they had consented to, the only likely one being thymosin beta 4. It didn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Just imagine if Essendon was a Russian athletic team or a Chinese athletic team. A "sports scientist" then put them on an injection program to improve their performance. Imagine if no purchase orders or invoices could be presented to at least give us a possibility of knowing what may have been given. I bet you you would be convinced they were being given PEDs. For the CAS, Essendon were looked at in the same way.

Ah yes...the team that won the grand final by 28 goals because they were pumped full of PED's.

 

[Bombfire]

On the grounds he injected players with banned substances against their will. I know he lied to them (or more accurately, did not tell them the truth) about what he was injecting them with.

Evidence brought from an infraction of the WADA code that had to be adjudicated by an overseas sports arbitration would be laughed at by a magistrate in any Australian court, so don't even waste your time.
Which brings us to your testimony, but you've admitted you don't have the kahunas to stand up, so that means we end up with nothing for the cops to lay charges.
Next case.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Ah yes...the team that won the grand final by 28 goals because they were pumped full of PED's.

Essendon haven't won a GF since 2000. Are you suggesting this scandal predates that?