Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

The Who's Who List

• #2,647

Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Kurve]

Page 132 - police interviewed BVE over a drug-rape of a young man. This happened in between Langley and Kelvin. The young man had a torn anus. He was picked up by BVE and taken to the Alberton house to party. The man was there but he said the "girls" were. Police asked BVE who the girls were who lived at the house and had not yet returned home. His answer was, "P" and "K". The victim admitted he had sex with "P" but BVE was in the room at the time! BVE denied this. Firman was charged for this but got off.

I've read this book but loaned it out, it never came back and wasn't a chaser at the time was glad enough to be rid of it off my shelves.

Do we know the timing of when Firman was charged for that rape and why she got off? Was it part of some sort of deal arrangement in the prosecution against BVE?

I think this might be helpful in determining where Firman in the retelling of the stories to Peters, she may have replaced herself with Turtur. Was Firman the only one to face charges of raping a minor? And is this mentioned in Peters diaries?

 

[PaulSubetro]

I've read this book but loaned it out, it never came back and wasn't a chaser at the time was glad enough to be rid of it off my shelves.

Do we know the timing of when Firman was charged for that rape and why she got off? Was it part of some sort of deal arrangement in the prosecution against BVE?

I think this might be helpful in determining where Firman in the retelling of the stories to Peters, she may have replaced herself with Turtur. Was Firman the only one to face charges of raping a minor? And is this mentioned in Peters diaries?

The boy's name was George, he was 16. This happened around midnight on Saturday 13 Sep, 1982 - 6 months after Langley went missing, 9 months before Kelvin was abducted.

George reported it to police at the time but it wasn't the Major Crimes who were investigating the Family Murders. Once they learnt of this incident they followed it up. This lead them to the TG house in Alberton. O'Brien then charged Firman with rape - part because it appeared a crime had been committed, part to put pressure on Firman to give up information.

There was a newspaper article at the time titled, "Woman rapes boy". Not sure of date but would have been within a month or two of Kelvin being found. The charges were dismissed because it appeared George willingly had sex with her (he just didn't know she used to have a wang).


I've had a little search for "Woman rapes boy" but there's some better searchers out there than me.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I took some screen shots from the Debi Marshall show. The white page was on screen for only a second and is blurry. It might be readable if someone has the time and patience to work on it.

Trevor Peters:
View attachment 780571

The page on the right hand side transcribed:



They often worked separately or in pairs to act as lovers to coax young male hitchhikers into Bevan's car. In the late 1970s they rented an old cottage off xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx where the drugged young men were taken for sex (I think that xxxx said xxxxxxxxxxxx rented the cottage, and lived there together. xxxx and maybe xxxxx rented a flat at Marden where boys were taken for sex when they acted as lures for Bevan. xxxx said that they all had sex with drugged out young men, since they all had penises then - even those that dressed as women only (xxxxxxx xxxxxxx) xxxxxxxxx would do anything for Mandrax. She had a huge Mandrax addiction and Serapax habit and was constantly drugged every day. She, along with xxxx and xxx also used heroin regularly. xxxx said they often were so drugged that they did not clearly remember what happened. Bevan always ushered others out of the room whilst he had his turn with the hitchhikers and became very angry if anyone attempted to get "in on the act".

---

- The cottage appears to be the share house at Alberton
- TP talks of a flat in Marden (Marden is between BVE's house in Paradise and the CBD)
- Some of these people "had penises back then". That's sort of obvious but the timing - could Noel Brooks had an opp and changed his name to Sarah Novak?

 

[PaulSubetro]

Suppression Orders

Marshall is never clear on which names she had revoked from suppression orders. Here's all the bits and pieces I have extracted;

Podcast Frozen Lies Episode 1 (Suppressions Lifted) at 35:00

• Only Turtur and Firman named

Podcast Frozen Lies Episode 2 (Turtur Speaks) at 2:30

• 30 names under suppression
• Marshall submitted a short list of 12 names
• 5 out of the 12 were lifted
• 4 dead, 1 alive
• 1 is a key witness, 3 are transgender, don't know about the others
• Turtur and Firman confirmed in Episode 1
• Gant is confirmed as having suppression orders revoked in Episode 2 (at 10:30).

Foxtel Frozen Lies Episode 5 at 38:00

• Firman and Turtur confirmed as having suppression orders revoked
• Then she says "there are other names that aren't suppressed that we can reveal" and then exposes Brown and Storen. She's no explicit in saying "these are no longer suppressed".

Foxtel Frozen Lies Episode 4

• Alan's Barnes' sister says she was given three names but they are suppressed - A magistrate, the business man and a transgender. So we can extrapolate that Magistrate Richard Dutton Brown was under a suppression order and as Marshall named it, it must have been lifted.

Other info

• Somewhere on the internet a clue given for a witness is, "man who faced child-sex charges overseas". This matches Donald John Storen.

Most likely names lifted by suppression order

• Firman, Turtur and Gant have been explicitly confirmed by Marshall
• We can extrapolate that both Brown and Storen were under suppression and Marshall named them (although she didn't explicitly say they had been removed)
• 4 dead (Firman, Gant, Brown, Storen), 1 alive (Turtur)
• 1 is a key witness (Turtur), 3 are transgender (Firman, Gant, Turtur)
• Weakness in theory; Is Storen dead? Is Turtur a key witness?

Alternative theory

• Firman, Turtur and Gant are locks
• 4 dead (Firman, Gant, Brown, Mr B), 1 alive (Turtur)
• 1 is a key witness (Mr B), 3 are transgender (Firman, Gant, Turtur)
• Weakness in theory; Is Mr B dead? Would they release Mr B's name when they may require him to testify?

 

[Bits]

There is a lot of confusion in my opinion because of terminology around the various women involved.

There are cis women (Miss Russell), transgender women (Firman, Novak), men who dress as women (Turtur, Gant, Brooks). Also, gay guys refer to each other as “girl” or “she” sometimes So even if Gant, Turtur and Brooks weren’t in drag they might still have referred to each other as “the girls”.

Turtur isn’t transgender but he is/was a drag queen. Firman was transgender. Turtur refers to “Noel” and “Brian” so they weren’t transgender otherwise he would have used their female names.

On another note, I looked for court cases involving Firman and came up with this:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SASC/1989/1815.pdf

Can’t imagine there would have been more than one Pru/Prue Firman romping around Adelaide involved in the seedier side of life.

 

[GreyCrow]

The boy's name was George, he was 16.

The charges were dismissed because it appeared George willingly had sex with her (he just didn't know she used to have a wang).

Age of Consent in SA is 17 - its Unlawful

 

[PaulSubetro]

Age of Consent in SA is 17 - its Unlawful

I just rechecked. It says this verbatim;

"Also, the case against P was dismissed in the Port Adelaide court when no evidence was put forward. There were difficulties proving that P had knowledge of the drugging and that she actually forced herself on George."

I assume that and the inability to prove she knew he was under 17 made it not worth pursuing.

 

[Kurve]

Similar to why the charges against the Magistrate Richard Dutton Brown were dropped, he's a bit more interesting than I'd initially thought.

. Witnesses reported seeing Brown getting into a white car with young men near Jolley's Boat House, on the River Torrens.
. Much of the debate centred around the age of the people with whom Brown allegedly had sex.

. Prosecutors claimed they were 15, while Brown's lawyers said they were more than the age of consent.

. Brown was said to be "always friendly" and "used to chat" at homosexual parties.

. Another witness said most people attending the parties used aliases, unlike Brown.

No Cookies | The Advertiser

No Cookies

www.adelaidenow.com.au

 

[PaulSubetro]

I am not going to catalogue the injuries as they are in this thread already but it feels like 2 different people were involved.

Maybe, but I think it's unlikely there was another doctor other than old mate, Woodards.

Page 232 of Young Blood

Stogneff was cut into 3 pieces. The three cuts were;

• Lower backbone above the pelvis (on the third lumbar vertebra)
• Each lower thigh was cut just above the knees

Although there was no evidence Stogneff's head had been cut off, the other 3 cuts were identical to Muir's.

Stogneff was taken two years after Muir. It's likely this was the same person who cut up the bodies. Millhouse had long since left Adelaide.


Page 233 of Young Blood

Dr Manock gave evidence to the Coroner that an object could have been inserted into Langley's anus and removed by rough surgery.


There's conflicting views on the level of prowess of the surgery. Conversely, there's not conflicting views on how may doctors were involved.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Page 241 of Young Blood

Different women gave evidence about BVE picking up boys. One of the "females" who BVE used as bait gave evidence. She met BVE at Number One beat in 1972, when she was a man. She changed her sex 10 years later in 1982. She was also a druggie who had a problem with Mandrax when it was commonly available. After Mandrax, she was addicted to heroin. She told the court about Mandrax and the picking up of boys, which she did about 10 times with BVE.

-----

That is probably Firman. She would have had the sex change not long before she slept with the drugged hitchhiker George. I wonder what Firman's name was before she changed it? I wonder if it was Noel Terrence Brooks?

 

[Bits]

I don't think Firman is Brooks. The reports all say that Firman, Brooks and Turtur all moved to Sydney. Their timelines overlap.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I don't think Firman is Brooks. The reports all say that Firman, Brooks and Turtur all moved to Sydney. Their timelines overlap.

I think you're right but the whole TG thing has never been clear.

- Generally people who have transgender ops live for a number of years as a female while taking hormones. So she was probably Pru Firman years before
- At the bottom of the screen showing TP diaries on Foxtel Frozen Lies it says, "After BVE's trial Turtur and Gant......". I've read somewhere else that the TG's (who I assumed were Turtur, Firman and Brooks) moved to Sydney. Somewhere else I read/saw that Gant went to Perth. Maybe Gant went to Sydney first or maybe it said the TG's went interstate rather than to a specific state?
- Brooks has been named so I assumed he lived at Alberton. But Young Blood was pretty clear that two transsexuals (P and K) lived their and one transvestite (Turtur). Maybe Brooks did live their and moved out and "K" moved in sometime during this was all happening?
- Youngblood also gives the impression BVE used other TG's who lived elsewhere. Everything about this case involves people, or groups of people that all interact in some way with BVE. He's a proper evil psychopath who used people to help him fill is sadistic desires. He manipulated multiple demographics of different people into rationalising what he was doing was sort of ok. Anyone who thinks BVE was a puppet to higher powers is kidding themselves.

Who is "K" and why haven't they got more of a mention?

 

[Bits]

Young Blood says that at the time that George was taken there, the Alberton residents were two transsexual women, P and K, and a homosexual man. But the news reports from Turtur’s recent info says that the housemates were Turtur, Firman and Brooks.

In the podcast, Turtur refers to Brooks as Noel - ie not by a female name - so Brooks can’t be the other transsexual woman living there unless Turtur breached all sorts of etiquette by referring to a post-op transgender woman by their prior male name. Also Brooks is repeatedly referred to as a drag queen. Isn’t that incompatible with being a post-op trans woman? Then again I’ve seen Firman called a drag queen too.

Again, confusing labels going on possibly, or there is confusion about who lived where at what time.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Confusing. It doesn't help that in some literature Firman is referred to as a transvestite. But then again, she didn't have the op until 1982. Still, she would have been living as a woman with a female name so probably would not have have been thought of as a transvestite.

Do you have any links to where it says Turtur, Firman and Brooks were living at Alberton? Or that they all went to Sydney together?

At this stage the best explanation maybe that Brooks moved out and K moved in. We know K was living their in September of 1982.

 

[Kurve]

Queer glossary which I looked at before using the term drag queens because I couldn't work out who was where at what stage or in transition. I wasn't even sure if any of them had the surgery, Pru maybe but using a female's name doesn't make it a certainty.

Agree to how confusing it is.

https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/multicultural-affairs/documents/queer-glossary.pdf

 

[GreyCrow]

Drag Queens was used in the 60s/70s to denote a male dressing in womens clothing. No differentiation was made on sexuality or artistic perfomance

ie everybody got lumped under the same term

 

[Bits]

This is from The Advertiser, quoting from Peters' diary. Places Firman, Turtur and another transgender/transvestite at the Alberton house together.

 

[Bits]

Murders

Авторский сайт Алексея Ракитина. Старейший сайт Рунета по истории криминалистики и уголовного сыска. Австралиские серийные убийцы. Австралийские педофилы. Австралийская преступная сеть Семья.

murders.ru

In my digging around, I stumbled on this very odd site which is Russian. The English translation is a bit clunky, and the style is odd, but there are a few nuggets of info that I hadn't come across before. No idea how accurate any of it is but it was definitely different....

 

[Kurve]

Murders

Авторский сайт Алексея Ракитина. Старейший сайт Рунета по истории криминалистики и уголовного сыска. Австралиские серийные убийцы. Австралийские педофилы. Австралийская преступная сеть Семья.

murders.ru

In my digging around, I stumbled on this very odd site which is Russian. The English translation is a bit clunky, and the style is odd, but there are a few nuggets of info that I hadn't come across before. No idea how accurate any of it is but it was definitely different....

Fascinating, not through it yet but do you get the impression the author might have seen Alan Barnes' autopsy report?

 

[Bits]

Fascinating, not through it yet but do you get the impression the author might have seen Alan Barnes' autopsy report?

They seem to have access to some otherwise unavailable info. It's all very odd.

 

[Kurve]

There's so much information in that essay Bits a lot's jumped out but this for now near the end. Is this true? If so, it might go to post above where I suggested he may have been cut down so small to lessen the carrying weight. Could he have been walked in to the dump site? It's less than a kilometre.

Already in 2010, it was openly speculated that Pru Firman and his transvestite friends were directly involved in the abductions of adolescents and young people. They were also suspected that transvestites were involved in hiding the bodies of the dead. Many journalists drew attention to a very interesting circumstance - the house in Elberton, which was rented by Pru Firman and his friends in the late 1970s and early 1980s, was only 850 meters from the pier in the Port River area, near which At the end of August 1979, bags with dissected remains of Neil Muir were found. There were even suggestions that it was in this house that Muir was detained and raped for several days. True, a reasonable objection is immediately asked here - it is unlikely that the SAPOL detectives in November 1983 were so naive, that they did not attend to the due diligence of their informants and did not study the issue of their active participation in crimes. At that time, the house in Alberton was unharmed, it did not even undergo serious repairs, so the evidence related to the murder of Neil Muir and other victims could still be found.

 

[GreyCrow]

Murders

Авторский сайт Алексея Ракитина. Старейший сайт Рунета по истории криминалистики и уголовного сыска. Австралиские серийные убийцы. Австралийские педофилы. Австралийская преступная сеть Семья.

murders.ru

In my digging around, I stumbled on this very odd site which is Russian. The English translation is a bit clunky, and the style is odd, but there are a few nuggets of info that I hadn't come across before. No idea how accurate any of it is but it was definitely different....

Thank you

Have started on this and will continue later - as you say clunky but it gives the information.

Something jumped out and I wonder how much credence is placed on it. Again going only by this site

The witness claimed that the teenager was spinning there around noon on August 27, i.e. on the day of disappearance. The man who made this statement ruled out any mistake in determining the day, since it was on this day that his wife had a birthday.

The witness quite accurately remembered the details of the teenager’s clothes and even mentioned such trifles that were not in the official orientation (like, stickers on the backpack). This eliminated all doubts about the accuracy of the identification. But only in this story there was one nuance that puzzled - the shopping complex "Three Three Plaza" is removed from

The witness claimed that the boy seemed to be with a man, but how long they met they could not understand. In principle, a man could come up a minute before the appearance of a witness and immediately leave, or he could bring Peter to this place in his car. Such a conjecture, if it were, of course, true, could explain a lot, but since the witness could not draw conclusions about the limitation of the acquaintance of a man and a teenager, she did not carry practical value. The witness did not remember the appearance of the man

It seems odd (to me) that a witness could remember exact details down to stickers on a backpack - yet have no recall of the other person. Even without the lack of recall on the man - the attention to detail on Peter is a rare thing that most people dont have

Its an odd note to me.

 

[Bits]

Thank you

Have started on this and will continue later - as you say clunky but it gives the information.

Something jumped out and I wonder how much credence is placed on it. Again going only by this site

The witness claimed that the teenager was spinning there around noon on August 27, i.e. on the day of disappearance. The man who made this statement ruled out any mistake in determining the day, since it was on this day that his wife had a birthday.

The witness quite accurately remembered the details of the teenager’s clothes and even mentioned such trifles that were not in the official orientation (like, stickers on the backpack). This eliminated all doubts about the accuracy of the identification. But only in this story there was one nuance that puzzled - the shopping complex "Three Three Plaza" is removed from

The witness claimed that the boy seemed to be with a man, but how long they met they could not understand. In principle, a man could come up a minute before the appearance of a witness and immediately leave, or he could bring Peter to this place in his car. Such a conjecture, if it were, of course, true, could explain a lot, but since the witness could not draw conclusions about the limitation of the acquaintance of a man and a teenager, she did not carry practical value. The witness did not remember the appearance of the man

It seems odd (to me) that a witness could remember exact details down to stickers on a backpack - yet have no recall of the other person. Even without the lack of recall on the man - the attention to detail on Peter is a rare thing that most people dont have

Its an odd note to me.

It's odd also because Peter's school bag was found at his home, hidden in the garage, indicating that he went off to school, then doubled back to hide his bag so that he wouldn't have to take it with him. So what backpack did the witness see? Did he take another backpack from home? Can't recall that detail previously. Maybe he did, and this was one of those details that police hold back.in order to verify witnesses. Otherwise, if the witness saw him with a man and with his school bag, how did it end up back at his house?

 

[Bits]

There's so much information in that essay Bits a lot's jumped out but this for now near the end. Is this true? If so, it might go to post above where I suggested he may have been cut down so small to lessen the carrying weight. Could he have been walked in to the dump site? It's less than a kilometre.

Already in 2010, it was openly speculated that Pru Firman and his transvestite friends were directly involved in the abductions of adolescents and young people. They were also suspected that transvestites were involved in hiding the bodies of the dead. Many journalists drew attention to a very interesting circumstance - the house in Elberton, which was rented by Pru Firman and his friends in the late 1970s and early 1980s, was only 850 meters from the pier in the Port River area, near which At the end of August 1979, bags with dissected remains of Neil Muir were found. There were even suggestions that it was in this house that Muir was detained and raped for several days. True, a reasonable objection is immediately asked here - it is unlikely that the SAPOL detectives in November 1983 were so naive, that they did not attend to the due diligence of their informants and did not study the issue of their active participation in crimes. At that time, the house in Alberton was unharmed, it did not even undergo serious repairs, so the evidence related to the murder of Neil Muir and other victims could still be found.

There are actually a couple of errors here which worries me about how accurate the rest of this is too.

Neil Muir wasn’t held and raped for a few days. According to some reports, he was last seen on 27 August when he was chucked out of a pub by a bouncer who knew him as a frequent customer:

The Family Murders — Unresolved

unresolved.me

His body was found on 28 August at Mutton Cove on the Port River:

Neil Fredrick Muir - Crime Stoppers South Australia

Rewards up to $200,000 will be paid by the Government of South Australia, at the discretion of the Commissioner of Police, to anyone who provides information and assistance that leads to the conviction of the person or persons responsible for the suspected murder of Neil Muir. REWARD up to...

crimestopperssa.com.au

Alberton is more than 11kms away:

 

[MrWeisel]

Murders

Авторский сайт Алексея Ракитина. Старейший сайт Рунета по истории криминалистики и уголовного сыска. Австралиские серийные убийцы. Австралийские педофилы. Австралийская преступная сеть Семья.

murders.ru

In my digging around, I stumbled on this very odd site which is Russian. The English translation is a bit clunky, and the style is odd, but there are a few nuggets of info that I hadn't come across before. No idea how accurate any of it is but it was definitely different....

Hey, long time lurker . . . need to step in here now. VERY IMPORTANT - I came across the Russian site a while ago as well. Does appear that he has much more info than any internet sleuth in Australia BUT there are deliberate errors put into the piece so that no one copyrights it - wait until you get to the F-18 jet fighters bit about Storen . . . - anyway, can't trust any of it for accuracy BUT it is interesting and includes things to ponder . . .

QUOTE from site

The presence of an icon (* Internet version) under the heading means that the submitted content has been adapted by the author for presentation on the Internet. Factual inaccuracies are deliberately included in the text, which do not affect the reader’s perception in any way, but allow one to prove the copyright holder’s authorship in court without difficulty. For the same reason (unless otherwise specified), the site "Mysterious Crimes of the Past" does not provide links to their sources of information, offering plagiarists to independently attend to their search.
If one of the readers has the intention to use the presented material for publication in print, we strongly recommend that you contact us to obtain a complete, accurate author’s version of the content and to avoid all possible incidents in the future.