Religion Folau

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(8)
There's a big controversy now: Is lesbianism hereditary? People are trying to find a genetic predisposition to being gay. I think part of this is positive in that researchers are trying to tell the establishment, "Don't try to cure homosexuality. They were born this way. A certain percent of the population is going to be this way, no matter what you do."But even if they're right, what about those for whom it's not hereditary? Many women say it's a choice. They have chosen lesbianism because of positive experiences with women. . . .Why are we so afraid to say we chose it? It's so scary to take that chance and say, "I am choosing it. It's really what I want to do. It's not because my DNA is making me. DNA be damned, I think I'll be a lesbian. JoAnn Loulan, Lesbian Passion: Loving Ourselves and Each Other, p. 35
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(9)
I received an e-mail [that] basically said, "Queer by Choice is a double-edged sword. If people can choose to be queer, why can't queers choose to be straight?" This question [angered] me tremendously. Why, you might ask? Because, duh, I chose to be queer. That's the reality of it. If that has bad political ramifications well then so be it. We cannot change reality for politics. It angers me that someone could even try to deny me my own reality. I have yet to say of queers, "oh well, they just can't be born that way because that implies it's a disability." or whatever. Frankly, I don't really [care]. But don't come shove politics down my throat like that will change the reality that I consciously chose to be queer when I was thirteen.Eve Shalom, "Common Sense (or Lack Thereof)," diary entry on glass.poetess.org, May 31, 2000
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Pick the bloke who didn’t read his own quotes

Pretty much all suggest that it’s that individual who “chose” and that others did not choose

this from the same person who thinks “hundreds” of anecdotes are statistically significant to draw conclusions over 98,000,000
 
Crankitup said:
One exception? I have read hundreds of accounts similar to Mantilla.
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Spent hundreds of hours reading up on how to know if you are born gay or not?

Always looking for the articles that say you choose

Always ignoring the numerically vastly more prolific ones that say you are stuck with it?
 
"I used to be straight now I'm gay" says random gay woman from 1996.

Crankitup, surely you are taking the piss.

Please continue with 10-20 if its going to be as funny as 1-10.

While you're at it, give us some stats on gay youth suicide. I wonder why gay youth would suicide when they can easily just switch to liking the opposite sex?
 
Crankitup said:
Getting back to Folau I don't think he was very tactful in what he did but it was still better than what the progessive elements in the church do. They welcome those who see themselves as 'born that way' and pat them on the back telling them what they want to hear. By preaching tolerance of homosexual behaviour they think they are loving the homosexual. They twist scripture and use warped logic to categorise such behaviour as normal. In reality they deumanize homosexuals, portraying them as mere animals, unable to resist their 'natural' desires. This removes moral responsibilty from them belying the fact that according to the Bible they supposedly believe in, we are all created in the image of God, with the power to make moral choices.

I suppose it's a reflection of how much society has changed in that large elements of it now view the Christian God as a prejudiced bigot for laying out boundaries for normal sexual behaviour and even more so for stridently warning us if we transgress those boundaries, we do so at our own cost (1 Cor 6:18).

Maybe one day society will move so far that it will come to believe there should be no real boundaries on sexual behaviour at all. Where will that leave us? What about people who feel like having sex with animals or young children? Will society come to believe them as being "born that way" and not to be condemned for just pursuing their 'natural' inclinations? Hopefully not.
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Informed Consent.

Really isnt difficult.
 
kranky al said:
Spent hundreds of hours reading up on how to know if you are born gay or not?
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Where do you get 'hundreds of hours' from. Comprehension and maths obviously not a strong suit. Most of them are from here http://www.queerbychoice.com/
That was a site I was directed to years ago when I thought the same way as you and challenged someone to direct me to a single instance of someone choosing to be gay. Each snippet takes less than a minute to read.

kranky al said:
Always looking for the articles that say you choose
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Artciles? I haven't looked for or posted any articles.

kranky al said:
Always ignoring the numerically vastly more prolific ones that say you are stuck with it?
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The same person who directed me to that website years ago also challenged me to match the number of people who have explicitly said they chose, with an equal number that have explicitly said choice played no role or they were 'born that way'. I lost the challenge because I hardly found any. Hence why my outlook on the issue changed. Unlike some others I have no problem changing my view regardless of my presuppositions.
 
Crankitup said:
For you yes. So that everything fits neatly in with your preconceived ideas. They don't identify themselves that way though.
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No by definition they’re bisexual...

words have definitions. I can’t say “I only have sex with women. And have no attraction to men. But I’m gay”
 

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Demontim275 said:
No by definition they’re bisexual...

words have definitions. I can’t say “I only have sex with women. And have no attraction to men. But I’m gay”
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But that's not what they say. In one of the books where these quotes are taken from this issue is addressed specifically. I'll try and find it.
 
Crankitup said:
But that's not what they say. In one of the books where these quotes are taken from this issue is addressed specifically. I'll try and find it.
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Sexuality is a scale

you’re describing people who admit attraction to, and having sex with the opposite sex, but have decided they want to currently only have sex with the same sex. That’s bisexuality. Plenty of bisexual men marry women and stop sleeping with men. That doesn’t suddenly make them straight.
 
Demontim275 said:
Sexuality is a scale you’re describing people who admit attraction to, and having sex with the opposite sex, but have decided they want to currently only have sex with the same sex. That’s bisexuality. Plenty of bisexual men marry women and stop sleeping with men. That doesn’t suddenly make them straight.
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Once again that's not what they say. Let's run a few quotes through your prism and see how it turns out.

#2 (Cynthia Nixon) said
---------------------------------------------
“I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line ‘I’ve been straight and I’ve been gay, and gay is better.’ And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me. A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it’s a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn’t matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not.”

“Why can’t it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we’re just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don’t think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn’t realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I’ve been out with.”

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So, according to Cynthia if you are trying to tell her that it wasn't a choice and that instead she is in fact bisexual you are a bigot. I tend to agree with her. I'll let you respond and we'll run through some more.
 
Crankitup said:
Once again that's not what they say. Let's run a few quotes through your prism and see how it turns out.

#2 (Cynthia Nixon) said
---------------------------------------------
“I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line ‘I’ve been straight and I’ve been gay, and gay is better.’ And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me. A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it’s a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn’t matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not.”

“Why can’t it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we’re just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don’t think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn’t realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I’ve been out with.”

-----------------------------------------------

So, according to Cynthia if you are trying to tell her that it wasn't a choice and that instead she is in fact bisexual you are a bigot. I tend to agree with her. I'll let you respond and we'll run through some more.
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How is that bigoted? She’s by definition bisexual.

so a closeted bloke who bangs dudes but is ashamed of it and calls himself straight, is straight, yeah?

I notice you also ignore the part where Cynthia says “for me, it’s a choice. I understand for many people it’s not”

but you claim it’s not the case, that it’s always a choice, despite your own evidence saying it’s not.

you’re not very good at this. And your understanding of human sexuality is lacking. Which tends to be the case for most overly religious people.
 
Demontim275 said:
How is that bigoted? She’s by definition bisexual.

so a closeted bloke who bangs dudes but is ashamed of it and calls himself straight, is straight, yeah?

I notice you also ignore the part where Cynthia says “for me, it’s a choice. I understand for many people it’s not”

but you claim it’s not the case, that it’s always a choice, despite your own evidence saying it’s not.

you’re not very good at this. And your understanding of human sexuality is lacking. Which tends to be the case for most overly religious people.
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(1) Obviously you don't read very well.

Crankitup said:
Like I said before, I've reached this conclusion (that for many it is a choice) based on the retold experiences of hundreds of gays who say that it is a choice. Many of them are in fact insulted by the suggestion that they are mere pawns to their biology.
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(2) I'm not overly religious. In fact I challenge you to find anywhere where I said I'm religious at all. This is your assumption.

I'll read whatever your response is tonight. Got to get back to work.
 
Crankitup said:
(1) Obviously you don't read very well.



(2) I'm not overly religious. In fact I challenge you to find anywhere where I said I'm religious at all. This is your assumption.

I'll read whatever your response is tonight. Got to get back to work.
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I think it’s safe to assume the bloke paraphrasing the bible and calling
homosexuality abberant

so your point is that people choose who they *...that’s it...?
 
Crankitup said:
You can't tell "what's in my heart" but in your opinion I'm being disingenuous. Brilliant logic.
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Spot on, this forum is all about opinions. You put your opinion out there and I fully support your right to do so.... although anybody else on this forum is entitled to there opinion of your opinion, that is the whole point of a forum like this one.
 
Folau would be lucky to have a couple of functioning neurons to rub together but I think it's a valid point that if you're going to call him out for homophobic comments per his religious beliefs, it's probably incumbent on you to call out other religions also.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that standard. Yet the question remains, are those calling out Folau doing so for similar beliefs - and voiced opinions stemming from those beliefs - across the entire spectrum of religions? Doubtful. Folau is just seen as an easy kill because let's face it, he ain't the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
 
Evolved1 said:
There is no agenda. I'm here to discuss and debate social issues because I enjoy doing so in the safer confines of the online world. I'm openly anti-theistic which may come through in my posts on the rare occasion. ;)
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Perhaps agenda is not the best description. Folau & his bible bashing attracting those who want to attack anything involving the bible, anti-theistic even.
 
twotooto said:
Folau would be lucky to have a couple of functioning neurons to rub together but I think it's a valid point that if you're going to call him out for homophobic comments per his religious beliefs, it's probably incumbent on you to call out other religions also.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that standard. Yet the question remains, are those calling out Folau doing so for similar beliefs - and voiced opinions stemming from those beliefs - across the entire spectrum of religions? Doubtful. Folau is just seen as an easy kill because let's face it, he ain't the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
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This whole thing ie. believing in the existence of an omnipresent, omniscient, judgmental creator is a complete load of codswallop. In time Institutionalized religious belief will go the way of the dinosaur, the gap for god to fit into is getting ever smaller.

Six pack short of a carton old Izzy is, a few Roos loose in the top paddock as well.
 
Crankitup said:
Once again that's not what they say. Let's run a few quotes through your prism and see how it turns out.

#2 (Cynthia Nixon) said
---------------------------------------------
“I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line ‘I’ve been straight and I’ve been gay, and gay is better.’ And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me. A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it’s a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn’t matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not.”

“Why can’t it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we’re just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don’t think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn’t realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I’ve been out with.”

-----------------------------------------------

So, according to Cynthia if you are trying to tell her that it wasn't a choice and that instead she is in fact bisexual you are a bigot. I tend to agree with her. I'll let you respond and we'll run through some more.
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How do you explain such horrible numbers in suicide of gay people when it's just easy for them to switch to being straight?
 
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