Club Focus Gold Coast 2020 - Atkins, Markov, Hollands

[Lore]

Data from footywire. To check the draft order (updated weekly) see the thread here.

 

[Heaps of fun]

Jesus H Christopher this Jack Martin discussion gets tiresome.

Jeremias how many of your lot actually ever paid any attention to Martin before your team was linked to him?

Ya’ll watch all those late Sunday Suns games over the last 3 years hey?

The guy can play. But he’s also temperamental. At least at the Suns, once the season went south, he was.

At times he would run rampant, especially early in the season. Then once the losses mounted, he’d start playing at half pace, and only put in an effort if he saw a chance to shine.

Last year, once he broke his finger he mailed in the rest of the season. I said it then on the Suns board. That he’d unlikely play again, and just protect himself and move on at the end of the season.

To call the whole Jack Martin saga a fiasco is one eyed fandom in the extreme, because your lot was 50% responsible for creating the fiasco.

Sure back your lot, but don’t try and blame the Suns for the trade going south.

Your lot made the approach to Martin. It was on your lot to get a deal done that satisfied the Suns.

Looking purely at the contract offer made by your lot, Martin was worth a late first round pick. Your lot should have made a trade that satisfied the Suns.

Plenty of other clubs just get deals done at the end of the trade period. Your lot should of as well.

The Martin saga might have been a fiasco, but the making of it lays largely at SOS’s, and by extension Carlton’s, feet.

Say your lot again.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Seriously??!! I mean WTF? You honestly believe the Martin thing sits with Cochrane and Cochrane only? Surely trolling and if mods can’t see this they’re blind. This is what I mean by the earlier post. Martin is past history to us and now part of the Carlton list. Not sure of his relevance any more to a thread about the Suns list management. Might as well throw s**t at the Coch about the JOM and Ablett trades, which are about as relevant to us now as the Martin non-trade was.

The Martin trade isn’t relevant in a GC thread on the drafts and trading board?

I think this is as right a place as any to discuss Cochrane’s incompetence at the trade table.

 

[briztoon]

The Martin trade isn’t relevant in a GC thread on the drafts and trading board?

I think this is as right a place as any to discuss Cochrane’s incompetence at the trade table.

Cochrane isn’t personally involved in the Suns trades. He’s the club chairman.

He’s basically the clubs public mouth piece, but isn’t involved in the day to day running of the club.

So his chest thumping is just that, chest thumping. Nothing else but club propaganda.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Cochrane isn’t personally involved in the Suns trades. He’s the club chairman.

He’s basically the clubs public mouth piece, but isn’t involved in the day to day running of the club.

So his chest thumping is just that, chest thumping. Nothing else but club propaganda.

He had his nose in the trade. The Suns list management were otherwise willing to do the Martin deal.

We did a mutually beneficial live trade on draft night when he had no say, netting them Flanders. It was Cochrane.

 

[HARKER]

Jesus H Christopher this Jack Martin discussion gets tiresome.

Jeremias how many of your lot actually ever paid any attention to Martin before your team was linked to him?

Ya’ll watch all those late Sunday Suns games over the last 3 years hey?

The guy can play. But he’s also temperamental. At least at the Suns, once the season went south, he was.

At times he would run rampant, especially early in the season. Then once the losses mounted, he’d start playing at half pace, and only put in an effort if he saw a chance to shine.

Last year, once he broke his finger he mailed in the rest of the season. I said it then on the Suns board. That he’d unlikely play again, and just protect himself and move on at the end of the season.

To call the whole Jack Martin saga a fiasco is one eyed fandom in the extreme, because your lot was 50% responsible for creating the fiasco.

Sure back your lot, but don’t try and blame the Suns for the trade going south.

Your lot made the approach to Martin. It was on your lot to get a deal done that satisfied the Suns.

Looking purely at the contract offer made by your lot, Martin was worth a late first round pick. Your lot should have made a trade that satisfied the Suns.

Plenty of other clubs just get deals done at the end of the trade period. Your lot should of as well.

The Martin saga might have been a fiasco, but the making of it lays largely at SOS’s, and by extension Carlton’s, feet.

Your logic is at odds with yourself here.
Martin is temperamental etc etc , but he's worth a first round pick?

I say this again - Had have GC not been gifted in a way a club hasn't been gifted before, the trade would have likely been done.
Instead we had Cochrane wanting to puff his chest out and showcase a new GC - The one that won't be bullied, yet in the end he had to hide in a corner, because he wouldn't have been able to reconcile what ultimately went down after his showing of 'heroism' post the trade period.

Martin was a pawn in the exercise and for all the early bravado, we're left with a situation of a club not knowing what it's doing.

 

[Dez!]

My original point still stands. Flanders trade was contingent on GC giving assurance they would not take Martin at PSD.

False......as usual.

 

[Mt Isa Mustang]

It’s up to Carlton to do a deal that satisfies Carlton and Jack. GC a distant third in our considerations, especially if they want to play nasty like they did.

We completed fair deals with Hawthorn, Essendon and Adelaide, and by all reports had great conversation with Sydney over Papley which all parties were happy with. Live traded with multiple clubs completing mutual beneficial deals. We have no problem trading fair.

The blame in the Martin “fiasco” sits with Cochrane only. Decided to take a “stand” against one of the only VIC clubs who hadn’t burnt him, over an uncontracted average player who had requested a trade twice. As amateur as it gets.

Cochrane isn’t personally involved in the Suns trades. He’s the club chairman.

He’s basically the clubs public mouth piece, but isn’t involved in the day to day running of the club.

So his chest thumping is just that, chest thumping. Nothing else but club propaganda.

Don’t you get it, krezuerns was in the Gold Coast room when these discussions were happening. That’s how he knows these facts.

 

[WillHayward]

I still think GC should have just taken pick 20-30 for Martin and moved on.

Could have got a decent player for pick 20-30.

Where did the 'making a stand' thing get them? Nowhere. All BS and already forgotten.

 

[David C]

I still think GC should have just taken pick 20-30 for Martin and moved on.

Could have got a decent player for pick 20-30.

Where did the 'making a stand' thing get them? Nowhere. All BS and already forgotten.

They didn't need pick 20-30 with the hand they had. Quite rightly stood their ground. They will benefit from it in the future. In 2 years they will be sailing past Carlton on the ladder as Murphy, Simpson and Curnow retire and their young guns hit their peak.

 

[Jeremias]

They didn't need pick 20-30 with the hand they had.

Rubbish.

Had they taken the deal they likely would have been able to bring in Sharp without absurdly handing over a top 12 pick next year to do it.

Whether you lay the blame for the failed trade on the Suns, Carlton or both, it cannot be argued that holding onto that pick wouldn't have been a more favourable outcome for the Gold Coast.

Unless you genuinely believe that this "making a stand" rubbish actually makes a difference. In which case I can't help you.

 

[briztoon]

Rubbish.

Had they taken the deal they likely would have been able to bring in Sharp without absurdly handing over a top 12 pick next year to do it.

Whether you lay the blame for the failed trade on the Suns, Carlton or both, it cannot be argued that holding onto that pick wouldn't have been a more favourable outcome for the Gold Coast.

Unless you genuinely believe that this "making a stand" rubbish actually makes a difference. In which case I can't help you.

Except Carlton didn’t offer GC a 2019 second round pick.

Highly unlikely Geelong trade their 2019 second round pick for a future second round pick.

 

[HARKER]

“We wanted to send a strong message that we are not the club we were. We have changed and in line with that we have made a strong and bold statement,” Cochrane said.
“We had said all along that if we could not get a first round draft pick involved for Jack Martin we would pass,” Cochrane said.
“Firstly, we didn’t want Jack Martin to go. We will use the next month to make our case again to Jack to stay.
“We will absolutely look at re-drafting him if it comes to that. One of the core reasons we didn’t trade him was we still want him here.”


This is what Cochrane said - This is not what came about.
It's a fail no matter which way you look at it and that fail only came about thanks to the AFL being so generous and for GC getting ahead of themselves.

I'd still like to hear Cochrane now.....but that's not going to come about, is it?

They didn't need pick 20-30 with the hand they had. Quite rightly stood their ground. They will benefit from it in the future. In 2 years they will be sailing past Carlton on the ladder as Murphy, Simpson and Curnow retire and their young guns hit their peak.

...and why may that come about?
Here's a first rounder here and a second rounder there and a mid-first rounder elsewhere and access to this and.....

Remember; One year earlier only a couple of State League players were on offer. 12 months later - Gold.
So how exactly did that come about?

 

[HARKER]

Gold Coast should thank Carlton for sacking Bolton, as if somehow Carlton finished below Gold Coast -

There would not have been Anderson, nor Sharp, nor Flanders, nor access to Darwin in the way it's been granted. Think about that.

 

[TheBoss]

False......as usual.

No.

 

[Jeremias]

Except Carlton didn’t offer GC a 2019 second round pick.

Highly unlikely Geelong trade their 2019 second round pick for a future second round pick.

We offered a 2020 2nd and 2020 3rd. Not premium picks by any means, but still useful be it at the draft or the trade table.

The Suns said no and lost the player for free, as is their right, but let's drop the bullshit that the picks were 'useless'. It simply is not the case.

Also not sure why you're limiting the discussion here to Geelong. Obviously they were the trading partner on the night but there's every chance other clubs may have been keen to engage had the Suns had more to play with.

Anyway, what's done is done. The Suns took a stand, got a kid they wanted, the Cats got a gift, and Carlton got their man for nothing. Everyone is happy.

No.

Yes. The trade was on the night a good one for the Suns and for Carlton, and had absolutely nothing to do with Martin.

 

[TheBoss]

“We wanted to send a strong message that we are not the club we were. We have changed and in line with that we have made a strong and bold statement,” Cochrane said.
“We had said all along that if we could not get a first round draft pick involved for Jack Martin we would pass,” Cochrane said.
“Firstly, we didn’t want Jack Martin to go. We will use the next month to make our case again to Jack to stay.
“We will absolutely look at re-drafting him if it comes to that. One of the core reasons we didn’t trade him was we still want him here.”


This is what Cochrane said - This is not what came about.
It's a fail no matter which way you look at it and that fail only came about thanks to the AFL being so generous and for GC getting ahead of themselves.

I'd still like to hear Cochrane now.....but that's not going to come about, is it?




...and why may that come about?
Here's a first rounder here and a second rounder there and a mid-first rounder elsewhere and access to this and.....

Remember; One year earlier only a couple of State League players were on offer. 12 months later - Gold.
So how exactly did that come about?

Yet Carlton chased Martin and made him among their highest paid players but still balked at sliding down 6 spots in the draft to take him.

Looks like Carlton acted in bad faith hanging out for the PSD, putting their hopes on GCS not putting in a bid. MFC was out of the race since bad blood after May ploughed Martin's misses.

 

[Dez!]

No.

Yes, you're full of s**t as usual.

 

[HARKER]

Yet Carlton chased Martin and made him among their highest paid players but still balked at sliding down 6 spots in the draft to take him.

Looks like Carlton acted in bad faith hanging out for the PSD, putting their hopes on GCS not putting in a bid. MFC was out of the race since bad blood after May ploughed Martin's misses.

We can do this forever but if anything Carlton came out looking good and Gold Coast - not so much.

Carlton got their man and Martin is happy.
Gold Coast with all the 'we'll show them' had to swallow their pride and retreat into their shells.

It's unfortunate but they're the facts.
Again I say that if it wasn't for the gifts afforded to Gold Coast, they would not have taken this stand that amounted to them not getting anything for a player they rated....they rated....as a first rounder. Bad move.

 

[briztoon]

We offered a 2020 2nd and 2020 3rd. Not premium picks by any means, but still useful be it at the draft or the trade table.

The Suns said no and lost the player for free, as is their right, but let's drop the bullshit that the picks were 'useless'. It simply is not the case.

Also not sure why you're limiting the discussion here to Geelong. Obviously they were the trading partner on the night but there's every chance other clubs may have been keen to engage had the Suns had more to play with.

Anyway, what's done is done. The Suns took a stand, got a kid they wanted, the Cats got a gift, and Carlton got their man for nothing. Everyone is happy.



Yes. The trade was on the night a good one for the Suns and for Carlton, and had absolutely nothing to do with Martin.

I’ve been trying to reply to a previous post while at work, which addresses some of what you mentioned here.

I’m not one of those posters who have said the 2020 second and third round picks were useless to GC.

I’m firmly in the camp of, Carlton offered unders, and that GC and Carlton should have made a deal where both compromised on their stance.

 

[briztoon]

They didn't need pick 20-30 with the hand they had. Quite rightly stood their ground. They will benefit from it in the future. In 2 years they will be sailing past Carlton on the ladder as Murphy, Simpson and Curnow retire and their young guns hit their peak.

I’m not sure of the correct terminology I should use in describing the Gold Coasts rejection of Carlton’s offer.

I’m firmly in the camp that Carlton’s offer of a future second and third round picks was well unders, especially when considering the potential dilution of those picks due to number of academy and father son picks in next years draft.

It quite conceivable that Carlton’s second round pick falls in to the 30’s, and who knows where the third round pick ends up.


But at the same time, I don’t believe losing a player for nothing is a reasonable stance to take.

At the worst, a future second and third round pick will be valuable to teams looking to trade back for extra points, or teams looking to trade a future pick for a pick in next years draft if they see a player slide.

There’s no such thing a worthless future pick (not in the first four rounds at least).

 

[briztoon]

“We wanted to send a strong message that we are not the club we were. We have changed and in line with that we have made a strong and bold statement,” Cochrane said.
“We had said all along that if we could not get a first round draft pick involved for Jack Martin we would pass,” Cochrane said.
“Firstly, we didn’t want Jack Martin to go. We will use the next month to make our case again to Jack to stay.
“We will absolutely look at re-drafting him if it comes to that. One of the core reasons we didn’t trade him was we still want him here.”


This is what Cochrane said - This is not what came about.
It's a fail no matter which way you look at it and that fail only came about thanks to the AFL being so generous and for GC getting ahead of themselves.

I'd still like to hear Cochrane now.....but that's not going to come about, is it?

It was obvious to almost everyone at the time that was all bluff and bluster, a hollow threat, a bit of propaganda for Suns fans.

Everyone knew that if a trade didn’t get done, Martin would walk through the psd.

We can do this forever but if anything Carlton came out looking good and Gold Coast - not so much.

Carlton got their man and Martin is happy.
Gold Coast with all the 'we'll show them' had to swallow their pride and retreat into their shells.

It's unfortunate but they're the facts.
Again I say that if it wasn't for the gifts afforded to Gold Coast, they would not have taken this stand that amounted to them not getting anything for a player they rated....they rated....as a first rounder. Bad move.

There are no facts in this post, just blue eyed conjecture.

Carlton didn’t come out looking good.

Quite frankly Carlton came out looking worse than GC did.

Not even all Carlton fans thought Carlton came out looking good after the close of the trade period.

Certainly most neutral fans sided with Gold Coast in this particular failed trade.

 

[HARKER]

Carlton didn’t come out looking good.

Quite frankly Carlton came out looking worse than GC did.

Not even all Carlton fans thought Carlton came out looking good after the close of the trade period.

Certainly most neutral fans sided with Gold Coast in this particular failed trade.

Carlton didn't get Martin for nothing?
Martin isn't happy?
Gold Coast had to swallow their pride after all the initial chest-puffing?
They're not facts?

I don't know how Carlton come out looking bad for not trading out their first rounder for a player GC deemed to be reserves player at years end.
Quite frankly my dear.......I think you're mixed up.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

It was obvious to almost everyone at the time that was all bluff and bluster, a hollow threat, a bit of propaganda for Suns fans.

Everyone knew that if a trade didn’t get done, Martin would walk through the psd.


There are no facts in this post, just blue eyed conjecture.

Carlton didn’t come out looking good.

Quite frankly Carlton came out looking worse than GC did.

Not even all Carlton fans thought Carlton came out looking good after the close of the trade period.

Certainly most neutral fans sided with Gold Coast in this particular failed trade.

I will admit we didn't come out looking good during and the trade and draft period, but this is all due to the fallout with SOS and his falling out with the Club/CEO Cain Liddle, and nothing with the failed trade for Martin and Papley.

Everyone knows the Papley deal depended on Essendon trading Daniher to the Swans, and you don't knock back getting a player of Martin's ability and potential for free in the PSD.

But I honestly cannot deny we haven't come out of period looking like clowns again, in another case of self-sabotage/internal political s**t fights within the club..

Hard to think that apart from Essendon, no club in the last 15 years or so has shot itself in the foot so many times than Carlton.. Most frustrating.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Yet Carlton chased Martin and made him among their highest paid players but still balked at sliding down 6 spots in the draft to take him.

Looks like Carlton acted in bad faith hanging out for the PSD, putting their hopes on GCS not putting in a bid. MFC was out of the race since bad blood after May ploughed Martin's misses.

There was no hoping. GC were never going to re draft Martin. Not in any circumstance. Only a fool (Cochrane and fans) would think so.

MFC pulled out of the race because their cap is bursting. Funny how during the saga Dees fans were claiming Melbourne would happily pick him and him and May were best of friends, now we see this alternate spin.

Carlton get a talented player for a list spot instead of coughing up a top 10 pick = bad.
Bigfooty logic.

 

[eastfreo75]

I will admit we didn't come out looking good during and the trade and draft period, but this is all due to the fallout with SOS and his falling out with the Club/CEO Cain Liddle, and nothing with the failed trade for Martin and Papley.

Everyone knows the Papley deal depended on Essendon trading Daniher to the Swans, and you don't knock back getting a player of Martin's ability and potential for free in the PSD.

But I honestly cannot deny we haven't come out of period looking like clowns again, in another case of self-sabotage/internal political s**t fights within the club..

Hard to think that apart from Essendon, no club in the last 15 years or so has shot itself in the foot so many times than Carlton.. Most frustrating.

Let’s play the what if game.

What if Daniher didn’t request a trade.

Then what was the Blues offer for Papley?