Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

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Jul 14, 2005
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Geez there is some semantics ITT.

Hawthorn finished 4th, but factoring in finals were the 5th best team in 2018.

Melbourne finished 5th, but factoring in finals were the 4th best team in 2018.

Kind of irrelevant given both finished outside the 8 last year, but if I was looking at upside I’d much rather Melbourne’s list going forward.
 
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Jealous of our 16 finals victories since Clarkson became coach in 2005. (Essendon zero since then.)

Jealous that we made the most of our premiership window of opportunity with 4 premierships in 8 seasons from 2008-2015
The Bombers should be peaking with their list age profile, but they can't even make a dent in September. Bit of a worry.
They were amazingly brilliant during that period everyone would be in admiration of that achievement. But I think assuming a flag with a vastly inferior group of players now compared to that, there wouldn't be many fans envious of where the Hawks are placed in the next 2-3 years. Certainly quite a few teams more likely and with greater upside for the immediate future.
 

Marc_Remillard

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I'm not 12 like you. I'm getting on a bit and so I have trouble with these interactive ladders

I tried playing around with the filters on that 2018 ladder on the Melbourne FC website, but i just couldn't get the Dees up into the Top 4

The only way I could do it was switch it over to the AFLW ladder

Maybe you'll have better luck than me???

Post a link once you've done it.

You obviously can't read.

So which is it, obtuse or imbecile?
 

Pessimistic

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They were amazingly brilliant during that period everyone would be in admiration of that achievement. But I think assuming a flag with a vastly inferior group of players now compared to that, there wouldn't be many fans envious of where the Hawks are placed in the next 2-3 years. Certainly quite a few teams more likely and with greater upside for the immediate future.

inferior to the hawks 2012-2016 team? That means just the same as any other team since the lions in 2004.

they wont need to be anywhere near as good as that team to be a contender these days
 
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Yes, they are starting to drop off. Your membership increase has slowed down significantly... you went from +5000 from 2017 to 2018 to just +900 from 2018 to 2019. It'll be interesting to see if you can even match last year's number after such a lacklustre season - a poor start to 2020 and I don't think you'll get there. I don't see Hawthorn hitting their goal of 100k members by 2022 unless they find some September success.
Wait but we missed finals in 2017 and our membership increased still????

What you said is just objectively wrong, we are getting more supporters each year and have done for many years.
 

matey

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They were amazingly brilliant during that period everyone would be in admiration of that achievement. But I think assuming a flag with a vastly inferior group of players now compared to that, there wouldn't be many fans envious of where the Hawks are placed in the next 2-3 years. Certainly quite a few teams more likely and with greater upside for the immediate future.
Doesn’t matter if the current group are inferior or better than the 2013-15 group because they will not be playing against them. What a dumb arse analysis to bring up!

However playing against Tigers, GWS, WC, Pies ..... moving forward I like Clarko and many other Hawk fans think that we are not that far off it and we have more than enough improvement to challenge for silverware again soon.
 
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inferior to the hawks 2012-2016 team? That means just the same as any other team since the lions in 2004.

they wont need to be anywhere near as good as that team to be a contender these days

That might the case, but who are Hawthorn overtaking to get there?

Richmond aren’t coming out of contention any time soon, the Bulldogs are still building, West Coast have just added another elite mid to an already well-rounded team and GWS have kept their grand final team in tact and are still in an upswing...

I think you could have nabbed another premiership with a better team in the period following your three peat, but there is far more upside in other teams currently, and the age profile of your list is going to start working against you if you can’t find another gear in the next few seasons.

Edit - forgot about Brisbane. It’s going to be even harder than I initially thought
 
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Pessimistic

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That might the case, but who are Hawthorn overtaking to get there?

Richmond aren’t coming out of contention any time soon, the Bulldogs are still building, West Coast have just added another elite mid to an already well-rounded team and GWS have kept their grand final team in tact and are still in an upswing...

I think you could have nabbed another premiership with a better team in the period following your three peat, but there is far more upside in other teams currently, and the age profile of your list is going to start working against you if you can’t find another gear in the next few seasons.

ah age again. I think youll find the contending teams will have a higher age on average. Which is not to say they are all old players

but you were saying hawthorn not as good as their threepeat team = no good. Dont worry even hawks fans seem to think that way. Its a fallacy.

hawks are far superior to our 2008 team and theat geelong team is better than anything today.

what im saying is things are possible, but I think the peak of this team will be 2022
 
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hawks are far superior to our 2008 team and theat geelong team is better than anything today.

Surely you’re taking the piss here.

There’s no current equivalent to Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis and peak Franklin and Roughead.

You’ve got Tom Mitchell, returning from a significant injury, Worpel (not there yet, but I’m calling it) and Sicily as elite players, and that’s it.
 
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Wait but we missed finals in 2017 and our membership increased still????

What you said is just objectively wrong, we are getting more supporters each year and have done for many years.
Yeah, but then you became the first team in history to suffer back-to-back straight sets finals exits in 2018 and didn't really look like finalists in 2019. I think reality is starting to set in now that the golden age is over and the membership number will stagnate until Hawthorn show they can be a challenger again, which might not be for a while. I don't think Hawthorn will break their membership record in 2020 but that's just my opinion.

Average home game attendance for Hawthorn matches in 2019 was the lowest it's been since 2006, but keep trying to make the case that support for Hawthorn isn't dropping off.
 

old55

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AFL change the rules every 5 seconds, so what does that prove?

As I said to your gimpish mate, please show me where this "final ladder" is. Post a link.
It must be SOMEWHERE, you would think... Show me.

I looked on the GoDees website for some mention about about your "top four" finish in 2018, but all I could find was this...
Look I'll try to make it simple for you.

GWS were 1st after round 1, Geelong were 1st after round 23 and Richmond were 1st at the end of the 2019 season.
 
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Yeah, but then you became the first team in history to suffer back-to-back straight sets finals exits in 2018 and didn't really look like finalists in 2019. I think reality is starting to set in now that the golden age is over and the membership number will stagnate until Hawthorn show they can be a challenger again, which might not be for a while. I don't think Hawthorn will break their membership record in 2020 but that's just my opinion.

Average home game attendance for Hawthorn matches in 2019 was the lowest it's been since 2006, but keep trying to make the case that support for Hawthorn isn't dropping off.
So you mean our numbers aren't actually dropping off like you suggested, you are just thinking (hoping) they will.

Thanks for the insightful thoughts on the Hawks like always.
 
That might the case, but who are Hawthorn overtaking to get there?

Richmond aren’t coming out of contention any time soon, the Bulldogs are still building, West Coast have just added another elite mid to an already well-rounded team and GWS have kept their grand final team in tact and are still in an upswing...

I think you could have nabbed another premiership with a better team in the period following your three peat, but there is far more upside in other teams currently, and the age profile of your list is going to start working against you if you can’t find another gear in the next few seasons.

Edit - forgot about Brisbane. It’s going to be even harder than I initially thought

Where does the Hawks average age rank without Burgoyne on list?!
 
Jul 13, 2015
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Jealous of what? A team that went from top 4 (at the end of the H&A) to bottom 10 with the oldest list in the league? A club with stagnating membership numbers?

I don't think Hawthorn have much to be envious of. Unfortunately I think Hawthorn won't be returning to the top 8 for quite a few years but's that just my humble opinion.

I wish I had been born an Essendon supporter.

My Dad was. Back in the 50s he switched to Hawthorn and his younger brothers followed. Broke my Grandfather's heart.

I think Dad is pretty happy with the switch. Ive certainly been happy with the 10 flags I remember. Including the 3-peat from only a few years ago.

But you are right. I cant imagine supporters of other clubs being at all envious. Which is why so few people have made offended posts in this thread.

Yes?
 
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I wish I had been born an Essendon supporter.

My Dad was. Back in the 50s he switched to Hawthorn and his younger brothers followed. Broke my Grandfather's heart.

I think Dad is pretty happy with the switch. Ive certainly been happy with the 10 flags I remember. Including the 3-peat from only a few years ago.

But you are right. I cant imagine supporters of other clubs being at all envious. Which is why so few people have made offended posts in this thread.

Yes?
Hawthorn did have a great little run there. I'm sure you'll love reminiscing about it over the next 4/5 years while Hawthorn struggle to be competitive. But I'm all about living in the present and looking towards future and not dwelling on the past. I'm all about creating new memories and experiences.
 
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They were amazingly brilliant during that period everyone would be in admiration of that achievement. But I think assuming a flag with a vastly inferior group of players now compared to that, there wouldn't be many fans envious of where the Hawks are placed in the next 2-3 years. Certainly quite a few teams more likely and with greater upside for the immediate future.
Oh yeah, that's the way footy goes with the draft and salary cap. You don't win a hat trick of flags with a team of champions and then immediately continue contending for premierships with a whole new batch of players. Show me the team who has done that?

Only on Big Footy would you get a conga line of clowns who'd diss a team for doing what the Hawks have done since 3peating.

I've enjoyed watching Hawthorn remain competitive in the top half of the ladder when everyone else tipped us to tumble down the ladder and finish 13th/14th or 15th. Way better than struggling to win a game, getting flogged most weeks and being a laughingstock like Carlton or Melbourne. F**k that. I remember cheering for "draft picks" back in 2004/05 and that sucked.

We had some good wins last year. We beat Geelong, West Coast, Collingwood, Adelaide and GWS(x2). We finished the year on a great note, thrashing the Eagles and f**king up Essendon's chances of an MCG final vs the Pies. We were still a possibility to play finals on the last day of the H&A season, which isn't such a bad year for a team in transition who were universally tipped to fall out of the top 8 in all the pre-season polls.

Richmond were the only team to really collar us. That 6 goal defeat was our most one-sided loss. The Lions also pantsed us, but only by 27 points.

I dunno... I don't get all the negativity about Hawthorn. Yeah, we don't have any Top 5 draft pick young guns, but Clarko is building a pretty good team that's tough to beat.
 
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Yeah, but then you became the first team in history to suffer back-to-back straight sets finals exits in 2018 and didn't really look like finalists in 2019. I think reality is starting to set in now that the golden age is over and the membership number will stagnate until Hawthorn show they can be a challenger again, which might not be for a while. I don't think Hawthorn will break their membership record in 2020 but that's just my opinion.

Average home game attendance for Hawthorn matches in 2019 was the lowest it's been since 2006, but keep trying to make the case that support for Hawthorn isn't dropping off.
We didn't become the first team to have back to back straight sets exits.
 

TylerDurden

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But I'm all about living in the present and looking towards future and not dwelling on the past. I'm all about creating new memories and experiences.
As an Essendon fan? Good luck with that.

Dump as much rubbish on our list as you like, but your list ain't top 4 quality. Happy to cop it from a Tigers fan coming off a flag, but your mob got bent over in Perth without a yelp.
 
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