tapdancingbear
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I don't think for one second the accused has admitted guilt to Yovich or anyone else
Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates
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trawlerman
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I think that's what you were saying in the other house, Tappy, that he has pleaded not guilty but who is he now going to blame as being the CSK.
It's a very good development by jezza. All BRE can do now is hope the prosecution make a stuff up, because he won't be pointing the finger at anyone else.
Heres a pic of CG scene:A surprise in the CSK trial today that appears to be favouring the defence
Fibre evidence in doubt as cop reveals Commodore link
Another police officer has admitted the potential for DNA contamination was not a priority in the mid-1990s and revealed he drove to the crime scene in a similar car to the accused.thewest.com.au
2 Commodore wagons, unsure if VR or VS.
Now, if the crime scenes x 2 were contaminated by multiple fibres from VS Police Commodores AND the blue fibres (in forensic scenes x 4) were from WAPOL uniforms AND the DNA was contaminated in the lab...He would have to be the most unluckiest self-confessed rapist ever
!
This is the prosecution case being presented. The defence hasn’t begun their case.
- Dec 14, 2019
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The defence case will be essentially expert witnesses in response to prosecution expert witnesses. They could bring in non-expert witnesses like Frankie but I seriously doubt it.
The defence is required to disclose their witnesses fairly early on. The prosecution will be aware of them and will usually lead evidence 'pre-emptively' countering that.
Devils advocate - the luckiest?Heres a pic of CG scene:
View attachment 805826
2 Commodore wagons, unsure if VR or VS.
Now, if the crime scenes x 2 were contaminated by multiple fibres from VS Police Commodores AND the blue fibres (in forensic scenes x 4) were from WAPOL uniforms AND the DNA was contaminated in the lab...He would have to be the most unluckiest self-confessed rapist ever
2 down - one to go?
edit....
-Police + Telstra vehicles
-police + Telstra uniforms
increases the likely suspects - IMO
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What altercation are you referring too? There were screams heard and a plea to be released, nothing about physically fighting back
From Mr Mitchell's testimony
"I only heard one voice... it went for a while. I can only recall one lot of words - 'leave me alone, let me out of here', words to that affect. It was very plain, very clear and very traumatic.
"I got out of bed very quickly and had a look but I couldn't see out of the scrub. It appeared to be coming from scrubland.
"I did have a look around the following morning and I could see tyre tracks from a vehicle having been in there."
Mr Mitchell said a short time later he heard noises for a short time and that he heard a car. The squeals were about a kilometre away from his home.
"It certainly wasn't loud, I could see the reflection of the lights," he said. "It did a turn left and continued east along Millar Road and that was the last we saw of it."
Or this from Mr Sturcke's testimony?
"I'm a pretty heavy sleeper and I heard a very loud scream," he said. "It just woke me up and I am a reasonably heavy sleeper. The scream stopped mid scream, it was about three to five seconds then dead silence there's nothing after that."
"Never heard a scream of that magnitude in my life. It was a scream from a female, not a male, and it was scream, a high-pitched shrill.
Or Mrs Sturcke's testimony?
"She said: "We had gone to bed around 10.30pm. I had been asleep for a short time, I am light sleeper, and we always had the windows open and the window was open and there was this terrible, terrible scream and it was what I would say was a blood-curdling scream and it stopped mid scream.
"And it woke us both up. I said at the time it must be a really serious domestic. There were no other noises after it. I got out of bed to see anything else but there was total silence after it."
Now how have you converted a verbal argument into physically fighting back?
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BFew
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Claremont killer trial LIVE: Homicide detective reveals 'pure act of compassion' carried out during Jane's post-mortem
Forensic officer Barry Mott, who attended both the crime scenes of Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon, and played a key part in the collection of some of the state's crucial exhibits will be cross-examined by Bradley Edwards' defence team today.
2 pics of the 2 areas (CG/JR) with maps hand drawn over them in yellow/blue
I must say hats off to him, at this point.
I think prosecution has tried to analyse all potential holes and added this into their questions, but should have also added something similar to the differences in treatment of crime scenes at the time.
Being 200% clear on things that could be variable, creates doubt in my opinion.
Not really. What would the probability be of a self confessed rapist who abducted a young girl from Claremont, who is then involved in the trial for the murder of 3 women all who were taken from Claremont AND fibres (across 4 forensic scenes) and DNA just happens to all be contaminated??
Very unlikely.
-bless her but we have nothing for Spiers.
-DNA will be the crucial point as they say,
- only rapist in the area? Don’t agree.
interesting to hear different opinions, I think and want it to be BRE, and he’s a piece of regardless post admittance of kk, but my mind worries still on doubt. Hope I’m wrong.
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OK, so where does that leave the judge? How can he find him not guilty? He can't really can he?
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Mundy4Hundy
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I honestly believe he changed his mind numerous times during the KK rape. I get the feeling it initially only ever meant to be rape, but then decided to kill the victim to stop her from talking, but then changed his mind again.
The final decision was to kill her, but I believe he got spooked & took off. The going back & forth after committing the offence & potentially being seen driving around afterwards makes me think he was not clear of mind.
I also believe he did not have clarity when it came to the CSK’s. I’m not sure he intended to kill the girls on the occasions he picked them up & believe it was sexually motivated.
It wasn’t until they rejected his advances after doing them a favour & picking them up that he felt they owed him something. When they knocked him back, he felt wronged & lost it. Just a hunch & how I’ve always pictured it.
I have a feeling that her keeping her eyes closed saved her life.
Maybe he was umming and ahhing to himself about whether she sneaked a peak?
Could have decided it wasn't worth the risk, went back for her, but lucked out.
Gotta feel for that girl. What a terrifying, life altering experience.
Then for her to find out it's linked to the csk. Then more police interviews. Then court appearances.
She can't catch a break.
All this discussion of Ciara having her period. Is that fact? Has it ever been reported?
I'm not sure tbh mate. Meaningless argument nonetheless.
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Has it ever been reported - no. Is it a fact - we could find out as soon as tomorrow.
He was well organized when he abducted the KK victim. Not the type of efficiency that would suggest it was his first big crime. When he took the hood off I'm sure it was the end for KK. He wasn't wearing protection either. You have a victim that can identify you. And he left forensic material. That they can later match at that period of time. He lives om the edge. He stopped when the came up with the wrong number one suspect. He may have changed his MO. It will be interesting to find out what he had in his room.
Catcher In The Rye
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Witnesses can be called pre sentencing especially if they relate to new information or have just been located. As regards Frankie I don't think the question "Did you discuss the defendant with his brother" is going to progress the case.
I think it was the Claremont Circle
Eaglette01
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When I have attended Court I too have not been impressed by either CB or PY and agree BRE looks nothing like the media drawings.
Media is not reporting CB & PY Ummmms and Arghhhhhssss and errors "gosh I'm having a bad morning" comments.... Chuckle Chuckle (Personally, I find this abhorrent)
It moves agonisingly slow.
This is anothers perspective from today:
Jessica Fitzsimmons
5 hrs
I went to court today for the first time. A bit of a summary for you all...
Pre morning tea:
- Very interesting so far but quite slow.
- Defence was questioning the former Sargent this morning about the photos he took at both Jane and Ciara’s crime scenes and how they were recorded by hand/computer system and what protective gear was worn and how the exhibits were transported to path west etc. Ex Sargent is now a lot older and doesn’t seem to remember much except what is listed on all the documents.
- From the questions this morning, the defence is clearly leading to the overall argument about cross contamination of DNA. As the ex Sargent mentioned, Unfortunately DNA was in the very early stages in 1996/97 so Police weren’t as careful as they are now- simply because they weren’t aware.
Overall impressions of the morning:
- Lead defender Paul Yovich has a very confident manner about him.
- Quite a few police/detectives present here
- Denis Glennon (Ciara’s dad) is here sitting in the front row. A few of the detectives chatted with him before court began this morning.
- Bradley Edwards is not as overweight as the photos and sketches make him look. He has been playing with his pen a lot and just looking straight ahead- hasn’t glanced around the court at all. I have a very good view of him.
Between morning tea and lunch:
- I can see why it is estimated that the case will take 9 months. They spoke to one witness (another police Sargent) for about35 mins just about the fact that he held a light source to assist the other officers at Jane’s crime scene. E.g. (paraphrasing) “in this frozen still from the footage taken at the scene, is the light from you?” (We can’t see the footage as it is marked as sensitive but can hear the footage when it is played.) Witness replies “yes.” “And is that the paper bags for the evidence being passed by you on the right as you held the light in this section of the film?” “Yes.” And it’s continues!!
- Bradley Edwards had his head resting on his hand and eyes closed for some of it. Other times he took off his glasses and put them back on. Other times literally twiddling his thumbs. Occasionally writing (he’s left handed) and sometimes intently staring at the witness.
- Slow but still interesting for how it all works.
- Carmel Barbegello the lead prosecutor doesn’t actually come across as confident as the lead defence Paul Yovich. She does lots of ummms and hesitations. (Side note- I think she was a lot stronger in the afternoon session).
- The judge has interrupted both prosecution and defence to ask the witnesses some of his own questions. Judge seems really onto everything even making a correction to the day something occurred.
- The witness (ex detective) Kays/Keys has some “spunk” about him in his responses even to the prosecution. But seems to have a strong recollection of events.
After lunch:
- Defence questioning of Kays/Keys.
- The afternoon was really interesting. A former homicide officer (Vicki Young/Smith) was the witness and she was there at Jane’s crime scene and also at the autopsy and further examinations of Jane’s body, so we heard lots about that and her injuries this afternoon. Quite detailed. She was a strong witness and very confident in her recollections of some parts which she made clear under defence questioning (e.g that she could see part of Jane’s body from the road) also being confident on stating if she didn’t recall something (e.g. if she was wearing scrubs or a a white coat and booties during some of the examinations of Jane’s body at the mortuary)
Media is not reporting CB & PY Ummmms and Arghhhhhssss and errors "gosh I'm having a bad morning" comments.... Chuckle Chuckle (Personally, I find this abhorrent)
It moves agonisingly slow.
This is anothers perspective from today:
Jessica Fitzsimmons
5 hrs
I went to court today for the first time. A bit of a summary for you all...
Pre morning tea:
- Very interesting so far but quite slow.
- Defence was questioning the former Sargent this morning about the photos he took at both Jane and Ciara’s crime scenes and how they were recorded by hand/computer system and what protective gear was worn and how the exhibits were transported to path west etc. Ex Sargent is now a lot older and doesn’t seem to remember much except what is listed on all the documents.
- From the questions this morning, the defence is clearly leading to the overall argument about cross contamination of DNA. As the ex Sargent mentioned, Unfortunately DNA was in the very early stages in 1996/97 so Police weren’t as careful as they are now- simply because they weren’t aware.
Overall impressions of the morning:
- Lead defender Paul Yovich has a very confident manner about him.
- Quite a few police/detectives present here
- Denis Glennon (Ciara’s dad) is here sitting in the front row. A few of the detectives chatted with him before court began this morning.
- Bradley Edwards is not as overweight as the photos and sketches make him look. He has been playing with his pen a lot and just looking straight ahead- hasn’t glanced around the court at all. I have a very good view of him.
Between morning tea and lunch:
- I can see why it is estimated that the case will take 9 months. They spoke to one witness (another police Sargent) for about35 mins just about the fact that he held a light source to assist the other officers at Jane’s crime scene. E.g. (paraphrasing) “in this frozen still from the footage taken at the scene, is the light from you?” (We can’t see the footage as it is marked as sensitive but can hear the footage when it is played.) Witness replies “yes.” “And is that the paper bags for the evidence being passed by you on the right as you held the light in this section of the film?” “Yes.” And it’s continues!!
- Bradley Edwards had his head resting on his hand and eyes closed for some of it. Other times he took off his glasses and put them back on. Other times literally twiddling his thumbs. Occasionally writing (he’s left handed) and sometimes intently staring at the witness.
- Slow but still interesting for how it all works.
- Carmel Barbegello the lead prosecutor doesn’t actually come across as confident as the lead defence Paul Yovich. She does lots of ummms and hesitations. (Side note- I think she was a lot stronger in the afternoon session).
- The judge has interrupted both prosecution and defence to ask the witnesses some of his own questions. Judge seems really onto everything even making a correction to the day something occurred.
- The witness (ex detective) Kays/Keys has some “spunk” about him in his responses even to the prosecution. But seems to have a strong recollection of events.
After lunch:
- Defence questioning of Kays/Keys.
- The afternoon was really interesting. A former homicide officer (Vicki Young/Smith) was the witness and she was there at Jane’s crime scene and also at the autopsy and further examinations of Jane’s body, so we heard lots about that and her injuries this afternoon. Quite detailed. She was a strong witness and very confident in her recollections of some parts which she made clear under defence questioning (e.g that she could see part of Jane’s body from the road) also being confident on stating if she didn’t recall something (e.g. if she was wearing scrubs or a a white coat and booties during some of the examinations of Jane’s body at the mortuary)
Yes agree that DNA will be crucial but I have a hard time trying to come up with contamination scenarios that put his somatic DNA at the CG scene, when his extracted sample from KK was a sperm sample. Much difference in make up.
Contamination of DNA and fibres (to me anyway) just sounds like a very unlikely scenario. There are 4 forensic fibre areas of importance: KK shorts, JR, CG and the actual VS recovered. Common blue fibres found in all. How does the defense argue that WAPOL contaminated the seat rail of the VS with fibres that match the other 3 scenes?? Forensic textile and fibre analysis is comparative apparently, so you can bet your bottom dollar that testing has been done on many occasions to exclude potential causes of the blue fibres. What they have been left with is Telstra Navy from pants and shorts. The prosecutor said that WAPOL uniforms from the time have been excluded as a cause. She would not say that unless they had tested them and excluded them.
But look again at my post: Contamination argument relies on contamination of KK shorts, JR blue and grey fibres plus the blue-grey fibre, CG blue polyster fibres, grey fibres and blue rayon fibres. Plus!, the blue fibres in the VS.
We arent talking a couple of fibres either....27 blue fibres from CG hair alone. If we then chucked in DNA contamination, then putting it all together, the defense is relying on contamination across 5 different bits of evidence. Exceedingly low probability that this occurred in my view.
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Resumed
live.24liveblog.com
Claremont serial killings trial live blog - Day 25
The West Australian is live blogging the trial of accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards.
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