Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

[Kappa]

I looked at it. I lived through it. There were some very strong, very talented full backs at the time.

You talk about the standard of the competition and them being part time athletes. Lockett was a part time footballer too wasn't he? They were all on an equal playing field. Comparing an athlete today to the players back then is silly. If you placed Rance back then on Lockett, he would be a part time footballer too, and he would play entirely one on one in open forward lines. Place Lockett into today's football, and his quick leading and physicality combined with today's grounds, tactics and fitness regimes could very well still see him dominating.

If you want to time travel, you have to make the appropriate allowances.

Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.

 

[PhatBoy]

Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.

Um, no one has said that though?

People universally acknowledge that Franklin stacks up in any era, Cox is one of the great ruckmen of all time, Scarlett has been retired only 7 years and is in the conversation as the best fullback of all time, Enright has been retired only a few years and I’ve heard him touted as the best back pocket of all time along with Bruce Doull, the cats’ current forward pocket is literally in the conversation as the best actual player ever, and St Kilda have only recently lost arguably the greatest gut running tall forward in 123 years of footy.

 

[woota]

Yes and he'd lose his number 1 strength and have to play a completely different style and in the end his output would probably be below modern day great forwards.

So much this. What made Lockett a formidable opponent was his size and bulk. His role only required quick bursts of speed over short distances - the rest of the time he just hung around in the forward 50 waiting for the ball to come to him. Lockett in today's era would not be allowed to be a 120 kg lumbering hulk. Traditional full forwards like that don't exist anymore. In today's game he would be required to be a supremely fit athlete playing a different role and he would not be able to dominate the way he did in his era. The proof is in the pudding - remember Lockett's 2002 comeback and what a dismal failure that was? He was trimmed down and in the best shape of his life, only to his detriment.

 

[PhatBoy]

So much this. What made Lockett a formidable opponent was his size and bulk. His role only required quick bursts of speed over short distances - the rest of the time he just hung around in the forward 50 waiting for the ball to come to him. Lockett in today's era would not be allowed to be a 120 kg lumbering hulk. Traditional full forwards like that don't exist anymore. In today's game he would be required to be a supremely fit athlete playing a different role and he would not be able to dominate the way he did in his era. The proof is in the pudding - remember Lockett's 2002 comeback and what a dismal failure that was? He was trimmed down and in the best shape of his life, only to his detriment.

He was 36 years old and 4 seasons out of the sport.

Is this a serious post? THATS your argument?

 

[Kappa]

Um, no one has said that though?

People universally acknowledge that Franklin stacks up in any era, Cox is one of the great ruckmen of all time, Scarlett has been retired only 7 years and is in the conversation as the best fullback of all time, Enright has been retired only a few years and I’ve heard him touted as the best back pocket of all time along with Bruce Doull, the cats’ current forward pocket is literally in the conversation as the best actual player ever, and St Kilda have only recently lost arguably the greatest gut running tall forward in 123 years of footy.

Lol, the entire thread that i read was discussing who out of Lockett Ablett or Carey was the best of all time, lots of posters were saying they are all far better than modern forwards, you have no clue.

 

[woota]

He was 36 years old and 4 seasons out of the sport.

Is this a serious post? THATS your argument?

Yes, that's my argument, and other people at the time were also making the same observation - that by slimming down and coming back that trim, he had forfeited the very thing that had made him so dominant, his weight and bulk. Lockett played a very specific niche role as a traditional full forward and that's why he could use his weight to his advantage. The days of big, fat full forwards like sumich, cummings, and plugger are long gone. These days, all players are required to be supremely fit endurance athletes.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yes, that's my argument, and other people at the time were also making the same observation - that by slimming down and coming back that trim, he had forfeited the very thing that had made him so dominant, his weight and bulk. Lockett played a very specific niche role as a traditional full forward and that's why he could use his weight to his advantage. The days of big, fat full forwards like sumich, cummings, and plugger are long gone. These days, all players are required to be supremely fit endurance athletes.

Slimming down .... AND being 36 years old and out of the sport for 4 years.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.

Plenty of people recognise greatness from a lot of eras. Ablett Jr, Judd, Fyfe, Franklin, Hodge, Dangerfield, Martin and newer names like Cripps. They fit or will fit into discussions with the greats from 20, 30, 40 years ago, no problem.

If you dominate what is placed in front of you, speculating on what would happen if they were in each other's eras is pointless. For a start the play they are taught the game would be relevant to the way the game is played at the time. The way you train and the balance between strength and endurance would change. The medical assistance would change.

You just can't speculate on these things.

The only thing you know for sure is how a player was rated and how their opponents were rated.

 

[PhatBoy]

Lol, the entire thread that i read was discussing who out of Lockett Ablett or Carey was the best of all time, lots of posters were saying they are all far better than modern forwards, you have no clue.

They are, Franklin aside. And they’re far better than the generation before.

That’s not revisionism or ignoring the present. It’s fact.

 

[Kappa]

They are, Franklin aside. And they’re far better than the generation before.

That’s not revisionism or ignoring the present. It’s fact.

What an incredibly stupid use of the word "fact".

Plenty of people recognise greatness from a lot of eras. Ablett Jr, Judd, Fyfe, Franklin, Hodge, Dangerfield, Martin and newer names like Cripps. They fit or will fit into discussions with the greats from 20, 30, 40 years ago, no problem.

If you dominate what is placed in front of you, speculating on what would happen if they were in each other's eras is pointless. For a start the play they are taught the game would be relevant to the way the game is played at the time. The way you train and the balance between strength and endurance would change. The medical assistance would change.

You just can't speculate on these things.

The only thing you know for sure is how a player was rated and how their opponents were rated.

The posts I was responding to (the ones taking up the start of this thread) don't mention any modern players really, and simply state the players from the 80s are the best ever. Instead of telling those people "you can't compare eras", you only seem to point that out when I say modern players are better than amateur / part time players from a strategy-less suburban competition.

 

[Monkey King]

Kickless? Carey kicked North Melbourne's first goal

Yeah my bad. Was kickless after that. Totally blanketed.

 

[Monkey King]

The posts I was responding to (the ones taking up the start of this thread) don't mention any modern players really, and simply state the players from the 80s are the best ever. Instead of telling those people "you can't compare eras", you only seem to point that out when I say modern players are better than amateur / part time players from a strategy-less suburban competition.

30 years from now there will be some dummy claiming a player the talent of Josh Jenkins is better than Buddy because of some shift in training standards and scientific understanding of preparation. Maybe when you get to this broader context, you’ll better appreciate how utterly lame this argument is.

As far as forwards go, they’re right. Lockett, Ablett and Carey are better than any forward running around today. Buddy is the only one who even comes close. Now for those who didn’t get to see them, this may sound unbelievable, but all I can say is sorry you missed out. If it makes you feel any better, the midfielders of this generation are more outstanding. Diesel Williams aside, there’d be half a dozen I’d choose this century before looking at 80-90’s players.

 

[Kappa]

30 years from now there will be some dummy claiming a player the talent of Josh Jenkins is better than Buddy because of some shift in training standards and scientific understanding of preparation. Maybe when you get to this broader context, you’ll better appreciate how utterly lame this argument is.

As far as forwards go, they’re right. Lockett, Ablett and Carey are better than any forward running around today. Buddy is the only one who even comes close. Now for those who didn’t get to see them, this may sound unbelievable, but all I can say is sorry you missed out. If it makes you feel any better, the midfielders of this generation are more outstanding. Diesel Williams aside, there’d be half a dozen I’d choose this century before looking at 80-90’s players.

Do you think it's possible, that rather than forwards getting worse over 30 years, that in actual fact that the game has just changed and defenders have gotten far far better... and forwards are actually better now (obviously), however they can't dominate like before because the game is actually professional now and not simply about leaving a full forward in the goal square by himself and kicking long to him every time you get the ball....

Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?

 

[Monkey King]

Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?

I’ve followed footy since the 70’s. Why would changing standards be mind blowing to me? I don’t need to imagine or guess at this stuff mate, I watched it happen.

Yours is a well worn boring kinda story, that everything modern must be better than what preceded it. It’s just ignorance, sorry to be so blunt; but you just don’t know what you don’t know.

Just wait 20 or so years from when some young fella claims “future Josh Jenkins” as better than Buddy for the same naive reasons you present here. Maybe then you’ll better understand how silly your argument is.

 

[PhatBoy]

Do you think it's possible, that rather than forwards getting worse over 30 years, that in actual fact that the game has just changed and defenders have gotten far far better... and forwards are actually better now (obviously), however they can't dominate like before because the game is actually professional now and not simply about leaving a full forward in the goal square by himself and kicking long to him every time you get the ball....

Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?

Defences have gotten better in general. Not defenders.
In the 80s Chris Langford stood above everyone else. In the 90s it was Silvagni, the 2000s it was Scarlett, Fletcher straddled both eras and then it was Rance.

Forwards aren’t better now because aside from Franklin there hasn’t been three freaks (four really - Dunstall) come along in the same 10 year period like they did from 83 onwards when Ablett debuted.

 

[dean33]

People drastically overrate Carey on account of that line by Leigh Matthews. Not saying he wasnt a champion but he wasnt GOAT.

Best forward I've ever seen? Be a tie between Ablett Snr and Daicos. Lockett easily the most consistent but at the time you'd be scratching your head wondering how God and the Wizard did it.

Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt. I was too young to see Matthews in his prime however. Ablett senior was the freakiest and most gifted player I’ve seen and on his day was unstoppable while his son was right up there for a number of years. Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.

 

[Monkey King]

Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt … Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.

I think of Patrick Cripps performance against the Lions last season ... this level of influence on a game isn't wielded by many players too often; it's a special level of performance. I saw Carey play to that level more than any other player I've seen. No player today compares.

Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think of Patrick Cripps performance against the Lions last season ... this level of influence on a game isn't wielded by many players too often; it's a special level of performance. I saw Carey play to that level more than any other player I've seen. No player today compares.

Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.

This isn’t a ‘my player is better because he played for my club’ argument because I think there are plenty of arguments that can be made for Carey over Ablett, or Lockett or Matthews for that matter.

But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.

 

[Monkey King]

But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.

The ability to influence games came long before the reputation. I had my eye on Carey since 92'. I was miffed when North made him captain as I was hoping Carlton would poach him. The Blues were blessed that he only got hold of SOS once, but I'd go and watch North just to see this guy play. His ability to consistently impact games was unlike any player I've seen. Parko reckons Matthews was just as good, but I only remember Matthews as an old codger.

I do agree he had a presence that would've enhanced his image, but that same presence also helped his teammates walk taller.

 

[dean33]

This isn’t a ‘my player is better because he played for my club’ argument because I think there are plenty of arguments that can be made for Carey over Ablett, or Lockett or Matthews for that matter.

But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.

The thing with Carey is that often he actually did pick his team up and carry them to victory. Countless times I watched games in the balance and he would rip it apart in 15 mins. The best I saw.

 

[Nuggets73]

Lockett Is the Goat. **** knows how many goals he would have kicked if he had not missed near on 100 games through injuries and suspension. Man was a 112kg Highly skilled Powerhouse Beast. Freak of a player.

You’re aware that prior to his knee injury, Peter Hudson was averaging 6 goals a game?
Not doubting Lockett was an absolute gun, and definitely in the conversation - but you’re way too quick to write off Coleman, Coventry and Hudson

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt. I was too young to see Matthews in his prime however. Ablett senior was the freakiest and most gifted player I’ve seen and on his day was unstoppable while his son was right up there for a number of years. Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.

Everyone's going to have different criteria for determining who the "best is". I have no issue with people nominating Lockett - I wouldn't necessarily agree but there's a strong enough argument and his record more than holds up. Again, I have no issue with Ablett, Carey et all being nominatedas GOAT. I still go with Matthews because a) I saw games where he destroyed opposition teams even in the twilight of his career and b) I haven't seen another player that could turn the outcome of a game off his own boot more than Lethal and c) he delivered in a major way in the finals he played. People might have other criteria for determining who they believe the GOAT is - and that's fine by me. Lockett definitely belongs in the conversation.

 

[Wolfgang West]

You’re aware that prior to his knee injury, Peter Hudson was averaging 6 goals a game?
Not doubting Lockett was an absolute gun, and definitely in the conversation - but you’re way too quick to write off Coleman, Coventry and Hudson

on't put words into my mouth. I'm not writing anybody off. Its an opinion. Lockett is the GOAT. The conversation is about Carey, Lockett and Ablett. Go and start a thread on the other 3 and people will have an opinion on them.

 

[Brutalitops]

Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.

I saw Carey's entire career and was well old enough to recall it. I just dont buy into the argument that his "aura" makes him the GOAT. The point makes no sense. If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?

I dont have a personal GOAT, but if I had to choose the most dominant player Ive seen its Kouta. And guess what? At his peak he ran circles around the Duck. 2000 Kouta was truly something else. Carey got put on him to nullify him and got dragged because he got embarrassed.

Of course, I understand why he's not in this discussions. Injuries and inconsistencies. But jeez, if Coleman can have a medal named after him then surely the concept of "cruelled by injuries" is a factor.

 

[Vdubs]

Everyone's going to have different criteria for determining who the "best is". I have no issue with people nominating Lockett - I wouldn't necessarily agree but there's a strong enough argument and his record more than holds up. Again, I have no issue with Ablett, Carey et all being nominatedas GOAT. I still go with Matthews because a) I saw games where he destroyed opposition teams even in the twilight of his career and b) I haven't seen another player that could turn the outcome of a game off his own boot more than Lethal and c) he delivered in a major way in the finals he played. People might have other criteria for determining who they believe the GOAT is - and that's fine by me. Lockett definitely belongs in the conversation.

Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.