Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

[Brutalitops]

Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.

Bunton Snr and Jesaulenko sadly overlooked

 

[Evolved1]

I saw Carey's entire career and was well old enough to recall it. I just dont buy into the argument that his "aura" makes him the GOAT. The point makes no sense. If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?

I dont have a personal GOAT, but if I had to choose the most dominant player Ive seen its Kouta. And guess what? At his peak he ran circles around the Duck. 2000 Kouta was truly something else. Carey got put on him to nullify him and got dragged because he got embarrassed.

Of course, I understand why he's not in this discussions. Injuries and inconsistencies. But jeez, if Coleman can have a medal named after him then surely the concept of "cruelled by injuries" is a factor.

Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's, and he played at a high level with far more consistency even while carrying injuries.

 

[Evolved1]

Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.

Good points.

I don't usually discuss players I haven't seen which is why I haven't included Matthews on my list, but some of his stats are insane. Lockett and Dunstall have claims to be included in the discussion afaic.

 

[Brutalitops]

Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?

I dont think you know what hyperbole means.

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.

Carey is indeed a great of the game. Clear cut GOAT? Nope.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.

Now do SOS

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's

Lies.

 

[Evolved1]

I dont think you know what hyperbole means.

Refer below. A dictionary definition couldn't be any clearer.

what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played?

Resoundly? Nope. 9 out of 10? Nope. Hyperbole.

Carey is indeed a great of the game. Clear cut GOAT? Nope.

I didn't say there was any clear cut winner.

Now do SOS

SOS was a decent forward, but Carey was a decent CHB too. I'd back Carey to have the better of SOS if he was playing a defensive role on SOS. I don't recall that matchup eventuating, so it's pure conjecture.

Lies.

You may have forgotten what Judd was like at his best. I'll clue you in; it was before Carlton took him.

 

[Brutalitops]

Refer below. A dictionary definition couldn't be any clearer.
Resoundly? Nope. 9 out of 10? Nope. Hyperbole.

Its not hyperbole if its fact. Resoundly beaten. Great battles absolute. But there was a clear cut winner in the sum of these duels and it wasnt Carey. I dont know how you can argue otherwise.

I didn't say there was any clear cut winner.
SOS was a decent forward, but Carey was a decent CHB too. I'd back Carey to have the better of SOS if he was playing a defensive role on SOS. I don't recall that matchup eventuating, so it's pure conjecture.

Agreed.

You may have forgotten what Judd was like at his best. I'll clue you in; it was before Carlton took him.

Yes, I saw Judd play at West Coast. Ive watched a lot of the Eagles and have always enjoyed them, right from the beginning. Matera is one of my favourite players and I'd rarely miss watching him play. Watching him was like watching someone on rollerskates. Deceptively quick but never seemed like he was moving fast. Didnt miss many games in the 90s.

I saw Judds best over his career. Aint a patch on Kouta at his peak. Sadly, injuries denied what truly could have been one of the best careers. We'll never know.

But back to the point, are you saying Jakovich didn't have Carey's measure?

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's, and he played at a high level with far more consistency even while carrying injuries.

This. People forget the when he’d been held quiet Pagan would throw Carey back to CHB to get his hands on the ball. Then he’d come out and smoke dudes

 

[Evolved1]

Its not hyperbole if its fact. Resoundly beaten. Great battles absolute. But there was a clear cut winner in the sum of these duels and it wasnt Carey. I dont know how you can argue otherwise.

The battles were usually fairly even, and that's generally considered as a win to SOS and Jakovich because Carey was so important to the NM game plan. The battles between Carey and Jakovich were epic.

Agreed.

Do you disagree with the rest? I can't see how Silvagni at FF or CHF would have had the better of Carey; Carey was stronger, at least equal in speed, and would have had the advantage that backmen of the time had through scragging forwards before the ball was near.

Yes, I saw Judd play at West Coast. Ive watched a lot of the Eagles and have always enjoyed them, right from the beginning. Matera is one of my favourite players and I'd rarely miss watching him play. Watching him was like watching someone on rollerskates. Deceptively quick but never seemed like he was moving fast. Didnt miss many games in the 90s.

I saw Judds best over his career. Aint a patch on Kouta at his peak. Sadly, injuries denied what truly could have been one of the best careers. We'll never know.

Judd was an absolute jet from early on. Go back and see the way he tore Brisbane to shreds at the Gabba during one of their threepeat years. His peak was at least the equal of Kouta's, and he has Kouta easily covered in longevity and consistency. It's no contest.

But back to the point, are you saying Jakovich didn't have Carey's measure?

Jakovich had the better of their duels, but Carey was easily the better player.

 

[footyfan1978]

Bunton Snr and Jesaulenko sadly overlooked

Also Pratt and Nash. If people want to talk greatest of ALL TIME and be taken seriously got to do better than token gesture mention of names of a few stars from decades they did not see. No one here can really say who the greatest of all time is. Can only say what the best player we saw was in our opinion. Those who truly do historical research and seek out considered opinions of those that saw eras well before our life time helps develop at least a feel for how good some players were. Lockett is best full forward I seen for sure but I do not really know if he was greatest full forward ever as guys like Coleman and Pratt sound like absolute sensations of their era when reading or hearing of those times from people that lived in those times.

Best centre half forward I seen is Carey but greatest of all time could be Royce Hart or Laurie Nash. Having never seen them but knowing they were sensational players, you cannot say Carey is better and be certain of it.

Gary Ablett is most talented player I seen play the game but seen a little footage of Jesaulenko and heard enough about players like Hayden Bunton and Nash to think the most talented player of all time could well be him, but no way can really know for sure.

Some elderly person that lived to 100 and watched a lot of football of all eras would have a much better idea and even they would be hard pressed to know as in their youth they did not have the opportunity to see lots of Nash and Bunton as tv was not even around in those times. All they can go on is the two or three times they may have seen such players live.

 

[footyfan1978]

I dont think you know what hyperbole means.

He clearly does not going by several of his posts..
The guy is full of hyperbole in this thread.

 

[Vdubs]

Also Pratt and Nash. If people want to talk greatest of ALL TIME and be taken seriously got to do better than token gesture mention of names of a few stars from decades they did not see. No one here can really say who the greatest of all time is. Can only say what the best player we saw was in our opinion. Those who truly do historical research and seek out considered opinions of those that saw eras well before our life time helps develop at least a feel for how good some players were. Lockett is best full forward I seen for sure but I do not really know if he was greatest full forward ever as guys like Coleman and Pratt sound like absolute sensations of their era when reading or hearing of those times from people that lived in those times.

Best centre half forward I seen is Carey but greatest of all time could be Royce Hart or Laurie Nash. Having never seen them but knowing they were sensational players, you cannot say Carey is better and be certain of it.

Gary Ablett is most talented player I seen play the game but seen a little footage of Jesaulenko and heard enough about players like Hayden Bunton and Nash to think the most talented player of all time could well be him, but no way can really know for sure.

Some elderly person that lived to 100 and watched a lot of football of all eras would have a much better idea and even they would be hard pressed to know as in their youth they did not have the opportunity to see lots of Nash and Bunton as tv was not even around in those times. All they can go on is the two or three times they may have seen such players live.

Find a better total package than Ablett senior in the history of the game

 

[stax on the mull]

Out of the 3, I used to enjoy the Plugger show more than the Carey or Ablett show.

That doesn't mean he was the better player, its just a personal preference for the type of player I like to see dominate, but that season for St Kilda when he kicked 127 goals from 17 games is unbelievable. Think that's the best goal average in a season of all time.

Unfortunately I never saw him play in that year he won the Brownlow at the age of 21.

 

[footyfan1978]

Find a better total package than Ablett senior in the history of the game

did you even read the post you replied to?
you clown...

Newsflash mate. video footage of most players in footy is not available because only recent decades is video of games really done for every game and kept now.

We got no clue just how brilliant guys were from many eras as video footage is only common in recent decades, Nash, Bunton, Pratt , Coleman and many others have about 30 seconds of grainy old footage of old film at best. Guys from 60's or 70's like Farmer, Jesauelenko, Stewart, Baldock, Hart, Nicholls, Robran Marshall and Cable might have a few minutes of grainy black and white footage of rare stuff kept from television stations then. I wish there was as much footage of players from eras before Ablett to enjoy but that just not is possible.Just be glad we got plenty of Ablett as timing of his career meant most of his highlights are there. Even some of his early career highlights would be missing from earlier 80's as channel 7 did not keep all the footage back then. We are lucky he played well into 90's when less and less was thrown out or not recorded over.

 

[Monkey King]

Judd was an absolute jet from early on. Go back and see the way he tore Brisbane to shreds at the Gabba during one of their threepeat years. His peak was at least the equal of Kouta's, and he has Kouta easily covered in longevity and consistency. It's no contest.

False claim. Judd played fewer seasons and just the one extra game.

At their peak, as amazing as Judd was, I'd take Kouta without thinking twice. His peak was something else. Made other players look like school kids. Had Carey go to him once and Kouta just dismantled the guy, didn't last long as Kouta waltzed his way to 38 touches, 5 goals and 3 Brownlow votes.

Kouta had a far more consistent career than most give him credit for, but it is here that Judd gets him. Judd was Mr Consistent from his first game to his last. Even when injury stole the physical attributes that made him so special in the beginning, he was still a seriously good player, game in, game out.

 

[woota]

If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Speaking of GOATS...this guy has to be the goat troll.

 

[Brutalitops]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Speaking of GOATS...this guy has to be the goat troll.

Are you always this triggered when someone doesnt share your opinion? Do you need a safe space?

 

[Evolved1]

False claim. Judd played fewer seasons and just the one extra game.

At their peak, as amazing as Judd was, I'd take Kouta without thinking twice. His peak was something else. Made other players look like school kids. Had Carey go to him once and Kouta just dismantled the guy, didn't last long as Kouta waltzed his way to 38 touches, 5 goals and 3 Brownlow votes.

Kouta had a far more consistent career than most give him credit for, but it is here that Judd gets him. Judd was Mr Consistent from his first game to his last. Even when injury stole the physical attributes that made him so special in the beginning, he was still a seriously good player, game in, game out.

Fair points. I'd still take Judd though.

 

[Leeda]

lonely dude is what it is... cheat sheet is what it combines when you all put all this and this together....

run forrest run... shallow beliefs will be what I end up with...

 

[2Knights]

Go look at VFL defending in the 80s, there's ZERO tactics or cohesion, it's almost entirely "Follow your man and punch the ball" with few exceptions. These are the days when the peak of coaching strategy was "KICK THE BLODOY THING LONG TO THE FULL FORWARD !!!" The VFL was an extremely amateurish comp with a weak talent pool of part time athletes, and defenders were mostly just the worst players who couldn't play anywhere else.

So yes, relative to modern defenders, those guys weren't much chop athletically or in game intelligence.

You're confusing talent with tactics. Sure, the tactics back then were primitive. But the talent was top grade - it had to be, the game was all about the skills.

 

[Vdubs]

Out of the 3, I used to enjoy the Plugger show more than the Carey or Ablett show.

That doesn't mean he was the better player, its just a personal preference for the type of player I like to see dominate, but that season for St Kilda when he kicked 127 goals from 17 games is unbelievable. Think that's the best goal average in a season of all time.

Unfortunately I never saw him play in that year he won the Brownlow at the age of 21.

Only slightly better than the 124 goals 60 behinds in 17 games for Ablett's 93 season, his first as a permanent FF, in a season with no finals.

is that in effect 134 goals?

 

[Vdubs]

did you even read the post you replied to?
you clown...

Newsflash mate. video footage of most players in footy is not available because only recent decades is video of games really done for every game and kept now.

We got no clue just how brilliant guys were from many eras as video footage is only common in recent decades, Nash, Bunton, Pratt , Coleman and many others have about 30 seconds of grainy old footage of old film at best. Guys from 60's or 70's like Farmer, Jesauelenko, Stewart, Baldock, Hart, Nicholls, Robran Marshall and Cable might have a few minutes of grainy black and white footage of rare stuff kept from television stations then. I wish there was as much footage of players from eras before Ablett to enjoy but that just not is possible.Just be glad we got plenty of Ablett as timing of his career meant most of his highlights are there. Even some of his early career highlights would be missing from earlier 80's as channel 7 did not keep all the footage back then. We are lucky he played well into 90's when less and less was thrown out or not recorded over.

I am not in the habit of commenting on the merits of players I have never seen.
Having been to footy games since 1963 gives me some credibility.
Of course we have heard that John Coleman, Coventry, etc. were superb players.
All my comments regarding GOAT are based on who I've seen.
Any comments about those others are imho, only for those privileged enough to have seen them.
Like discussions about Federer/ Nadal/Djokovic v Laver. I have not seen enough of Laver to comment .
But THIS THREAD is about Lockett/Ablett/Carey.
Hence the videos.
Again, you find better footage (and more prolific) of any other player since Ablett snr.
That includes Carey, Lockett, Ablett jnr, Judd, Kouta.....Buddy..
Nice deflection.

 

[Kappa]

You're confusing talent with tactics. Sure, the tactics back then were primitive. But the talent was top grade - it had to be, the game was all about the skills.

It was a part time suburban competition, with the vast majority of the players coming from a smallish victorian population.. Most if not all players had 2nd jobs too...

 

[footyfan1978]

I am not in the habit of commenting on the merits of players I have never seen.

You clearly skimmed through the post and did not read properly.
We cannot truly say who was greatest of all time but here you are replying to that post as if we could, but then here you admit you not seen them all.
so you admit you not seen them all but then say Ablett is greatest of all...lol
Strange reply.

Anyway, yeah, I love Ablett highlights videos. It is sensational we can catch most of the highlights of guys from these more modern times. There is no better sample of a players highlights than his in last three decades.

 

[Monkey King]

It was a part time suburban competition, with the vast majority of the players coming from a smallish victorian population..

Part time? All you’re describing here is the upside of those guys had they been able to dedicate themselves to football. You can’t teach or train the talent these guys had. It doesn't matter what inevitable advances in sports science are made 20 years from now, Future Josh Jenkins will simply not have the talent of Buddy Franklin. If this is not apparent to you yet, just wait an era or two and I'm sure the penny will drop.

Hate to break it to you bud, but these players played in a national comp. Carey wasn't a Victorian. Lockett played for Sydney. You're 10 years too late.

 

[Tectonic]

Only slightly better than the 124 goals 6 behinds in 17 games for Ablett's 93 season, his first as a permanent FF, in a season with no finals.

It was 124.60 not 124.6