Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Snidely Whiplash]

If that's the case, then the knife could represent the shinboners, being a butchers knife.....That just leaves Hawthorn & Essendon then.

Other thread "1938" thinks the Mexican may refer to political crisis at the time with Mexico, or Don = Senor so might be Essendon?

I can see either theory being real, but why still leaving out the Mustard Pots?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Do they go into the early 1960s. Dad always said that Maurie Fleming had to obtain a permit from the Caulfield Oakleigh District League for him to actually play with Richmond - so I wonder if that is listed anywhere from around 1962 (U17s)

Have focused on Collingwood records previously but hoping to digitise all into a database/website this year. Quality varies. Permit Register book from 1897-1930 is good. Then it goes to Minute Books from Umpire and Permit Committee which list the permits in the minutes, but after a few years it refers to "See the Permit Register" which so far I have not found. Then in the 40s/50s it has a Team List book which is a register of all players each season up to 80s I think. This book lists prior seasons and Clubs each player came from and cumulative games and goals.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Other thread "1938" thinks the Mexican may refer to political crisis at the time with Mexico, or Don = Senor so might be Essendon?

I can see either theory being real, but why still leaving out the Mustard Pots?

I can absolutely see the merit in that…..I was thinking the regular Mexican poncho is also typically of a mustard-seed colour....Reference to the mustard pots perhaps?...There's something about that Sombrero also....There's to doff one's hat, but putting it back on is to Don it?

The Same Olds & Sash Wearers had both fallen into disuse by the early 1920's apparently.....So it was definitely The Dons for Essendon in 1938.

I can't see any may-bloom flowers adorning that Mexicans' poncho however.....More digging required.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

*do i assume you help out Col/SR, hence you have access to the permit books*

I work with Michael Roberts at Collingwood Archives and have also been doing some work at AFL office last year, first day back tomorrow. I am looking at publishing Permits as a searchable database somehow this year.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

The Same Olds & Sash Wearers had both fallen into disuse by the early 1920's apparently.....So it was definitely The Dons for Essendon in 1938.

I only quickly looked at Wikipaedia, The Clubs, The Australian Game Of Football since 1858 as references and 2 of them indicated Same Olds (and Dons) was still in use up until Bombers was adopted in WW2? But regardless, I can't see any plausible link to Same Olds anyway . We are stretching for an answer now

 

[Procrastinator35]

I only quickly looked at Wikipaedia, The Clubs, The Australian Game Of Football since 1858 as references and 2 of them indicated Same Olds (and Dons) was still in use up until Bombers was adopted in WW2? But regardless, I can't see any plausible link to Same Olds anyway . We are stretching for an answer now

Big depression in Mexico in the 1930's.....The equal to the one that adorned the HFC throughout that decade apparently.

Reckon there's a mustard seed pot connection there somewhere.....We'll stumble onto the right answer eventfully.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Did the Mexicans have a monopoly on mustard seeds or something?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Did the Mexicans have a monopoly on mustard seeds or something?

Don't know…..Doubt it.

I reckon you're right though.....The Mexican is a senor, which is Hispanic for Don.

That only leaves Hawthorn as the sole unrepresented club.

 

[rbartlett]

Then in the 40s/50s it has a Team List book which is a register of all players each season up to 80s I think. This book lists prior seasons and Clubs each player came from and cumulative games and goals.

With the Team List book, does each club have their own page that simply lists all the players? (ie: Does Richmond have a page that says 1941 and then it just lists all the players?)

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Do they go into the early 1960s. Dad always said that Maurie Fleming had to obtain a permit from the Caulfield Oakleigh District League for him to actually play with Richmond - so I wonder if that is listed anywhere from around 1962 (U17s)

Hey Rhett
I looked at Permit Committee Minute Book for 61-66 and couldn't see specific mention of Maurie Fleming to Richmond. Permits Transcription Index 1951-82 also doesn't show him as a Permit.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

With the Team List book, does each club have their own page that simply lists all the players? (ie: Does Richmond have a page that says 1941 and then it just lists all the players?)

Yes, there is a page for each season for each club, showing all players that season, where they came from, previous season,rd by rd matches played and goals, sometimes weekly votes, end of season votes/awards and notes of transfers. I attach a Collingwood page for 1934 as sample. I had to copy each page in 4 separate images as it was too blurry in single shot when i zoomed but have a better setup now and will be re-taking new full size images shortly. Let me know if you want something specific.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

35Daicos alerted me to my misinterpretation haha thks.

KC Bartlett Richmond 4ths to Richmond approved 20.4.63 (ex Try Boys U15s) is the only permit there.

Hey Rhett
I looked at Permit Committee Minute Book for 61-66 and couldn't see specific mention of Maurie Fleming to Richmond. Permits Transcription Index 1951-82 also doesn't show him as a Permit.

 

[rbartlett]

35Daicos alerted me to my misinterpretation haha thks.

KC Bartlett Richmond 4ths to Richmond approved 20.4.63 (ex Try Boys U15s) is the only permit there.

Wowsers!
Have you got a screen shot of this. I would love to show my father it, and send out a tweet (Ill credit you ).

 

[rbartlett]

Let me know if you want something specific.

Id be interested in the Team Lists if there's any reference in the notes column (or whatever column lists "awards") as to whether there is any mention of a "Best and Fairest" for any Richmond player covering the years/pages 1919 -1927

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Id be interested in the Team Lists if there's any reference in the notes column (or whatever column lists "awards") as to whether there is any mention of a "Best and Fairest" for any Richmond player covering the years/pages 1919 -1927

Will have a look next week

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Wowsers!
Have you got a screen shot of this. I would love to show my father it, and send out a tweet (Ill credit you ).

Not yet, took it off the data list rather than original image. Will take a snap next week

 

[rbartlett]

I haven't looked deeply into this at all, but in the 1910 AR it lists T Price in the games section.
Now AFLTables has the player listed as Syd Price https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Syd_Price.html
A quick Trove search finds 16 April 1909 The Herald say "Other new players are Tim Price..." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242058290
A team photo published on 20 May 1909 lists him as S. Price http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222258718
His wiki calls him Sydney Alexander Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syd_Price , so I'm wondering why the AR calls him T. Price, and The Herald.

In 1918 March 2 an article is published from Frank Goldin a supporter and worked of the RFC previously (though I'm unable to discover what he did work wise at the club). He lists a few player names who are over fighting in the war and he lists Tim Price. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93808534
My TigerlandArchive has Syd Price as the name of the player who played and went to War - and I think I got that from Harder Than Football (pg 201)

This page in The Herald 30 April 1909 (column 6, para 3)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26265846

i. d.'s him as S Price

According to The Encyclopedia, Syd A. Price played for Richmond 1909-10. They also had Joe A. Price (1911) and Richard Price (1912).

Should be Sydney Alexander according to Vic BDM (7597).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22442433 (25 July 1947)

Former rover dies
Syd Price, Brunswick rover in the days of "Dookie" McKenzie and Henry Chase, died suddenly yesterday. He was one of the finest rovers in the VFA before the first world war and for two years after his return from service.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22442566

He went to Brunswick in May 1910 after playing the Rd. 1 game for Richmond: Sydney Price, Richmond to Brunswick

I think the family have a point if he's had that award for 80 years. Plus there was the captain wearing number 17 which Cotchin stopped.

Bumping these 3 entries up again. It relates to Syd Price who is currently listed as RFC in 1909, and a T Price who isnt.
I'm re-wondering if Tim Price played for Richmond and perhaps we have misidentified Syd Price.

In 1936 Barney Herbert talks about playing with TIM PRICE http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190322661 (and interestingly enough Howard Neil, though AFLTables has that RFC player listed as Harry Neil. But that's an issue for a later post).
There obviously was a Tim Price who played with Richmond in pre-season matches of 1909 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242058290

Now I notice my funding for the 1907,08,09 Richmond Guardian digitisation seems to be almost done. The pages are *nearly* live.
And a search shows that in a June 5th 1909 entry in the Richmond Guardian talks about a Tim Price playing . (see pic)

This entry correlates on AFLTables to S. PRICE not playing in Rd 10 - yet the Rich. Guardian clearly looks like he is name T. Price


Something to keep an eye on over the next few days when they become live. I suspect these 3 years of digitisation might shed some interesting light when I go through each year game by game.

Because it could be that SYD PRICE was, for some reason also called TIM PRICE (as a nickname);
or SYD PRICE never played for Richmond and it was actually TIM PRICE;
or SYD PRICE played a few games, and TIM PRICE played a few games and they've been merged as one player over the year.
The 1910 Annual Report lists T. PRICE as the Rd 1 vs Sth Melbourne player - yet AFLTables lists that as Syd Price. Perhaps T.Price didnt play in 1909 but did in one game in 1910
In the 1909 Annual Report it only lists PRICE in the players, with no initial. Considering they added the initial 'T' in the 19190 Annual Report player list, that could possible mean the 1909 player isn't T Price'.

Something to keep an eye on over the next few days when those 1907-09 pages become live

Update:
The Richmond Guardian review of the Rd 1 1910 match says that Price (no initial) was "as cool as of yore" which interestingly is similar language when describingTim Price in my 1909 screenshot above ("as cool as a Siberian simoon all day")


Update 2:
The PRICE who played Round 1 1909 for Richmond is listed as from "Rose of Northcote" in the Australasian
Rose of Northcote was a junior team in Melbourne. I notice on wiki that Syd Price is listed as born in NSW.
It will be interesting to see where the Richmond Guardian say "Tim Price" is from.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

The PRICE who played Round 1 1909 for Richmond is listed as from "Rose of Northcote" in the Australasian

The VFL Permit book only has:
Price, JN Richmond to St Kilda permit granted 26/6/12
No others In or OUT for Richmond

 

[35Daicos]

Bumping these 3 entries up again. It relates to Syd Price who is currently listed as RFC in 1909, and a T Price who isnt.
I'm re-wondering if Tim Price played for Richmond and perhaps we have misidentified Syd Price.

In 1936 Barney Herbert talks about playing with TIM PRICE http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190322661 (and interestingly enough Howard Neil, though AFLTables has that RFC player listed as Harry Neil. But that's an issue for a later post).

The Encyclopedia calls this player Howard S. Harry Neil.

Wikipedia has: Howard Scott "Harry" Neil (13 September 1882 – 11 October 1952) was an Australian rules footballer who played with Collingwood and Richmond in the Victorian Football League (VFL).

Family Notices - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 13 Oct 1952

trove.nla.gov.au

Harry does seem to have been a nickname, and doesn't get used here^.

 

[GreyCrow]

Rose of Northcote

Rose of Northcote joined Northcote in the VJFA’s first division in 1904, creating a new local derby. The first of these derbies finished in a win for Rose of Northcote in front of 3,000 to 4,000 people at Croxton Park, although Northcote would have the last laugh winning the 1904 Premiership and following it up with another in 1906. Rose of Northcote finished third in their debut season in the VJFA. In 1906 the fifteen-year-old son of local resident Wal Lee made his debut for the Rose of Northcote. Dick Lee quickly established himself and moved to Collingwood in 1907, where his father was head trainer. Lee would become the first superstar forward of the VFL setting numerous goal kicking records while playing over 200 games for the Magpies. Meanwhile Rose of Northcote continued to have the edge over Northcote in their derbies, though they never finished above their more senior rival on the Association ladder. In 1908 Northcote earned a place in the VFA, after Richmond departed for the VFL. This left only Rose of Northcote and new club Northcote Wednesday who had just earned promotion to a senior level after playing in a mid-week competition that played at Croxton Park. ​

As quickly as it was started, Rose of Northcote wound up. The 1908 season was moderately successful, with the club making the finals only to lose to eventual Premier Yarraville. Despite having been a successful side, and attracting a loyal supporter base, the match against Yarraville would be the last for Rose of Northcote. The Randall family had been lobbying Northcote Football Club to return to Croxton Park, as facilities had been upgraded and the family was keen to have VFA football on its ground. The club’s 1908 debut season in the VFA had been played at Northcote Park, but they were persuaded to return to Croxton Park after the season, and eventually the VFA allowed the move. Rose of Northcote ‘amalgamated’ with Northcote, at the behest of the influential Randalls, and was no more.​

This article says 5 players came from RoN

The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Apr 1909 - p2

FOOTBALL.; THE RUGBY GAME.; MELBOURNE.; Advertising; WITH THE JUNIORS; SOUTH MELBOURNE.; ST. KILDA.; GEELONG.; FITZROY.; Advertising; COLLINGWOOD.; THE LEAGUE.; UNIVERSITY.; ASSOCIATION; PRELIMINARY SKIRMISHES.; RICHMOND.; Advertising; ESSENDON.;

nla.gov.au

As to the NSW connection - PRICE SYDNEY A 12332/1887 SAMUEL ELIZABETH WATERLOO

Event:
deaths
Registration number 7597 / 1947
Family name:PRICE
Given name(s) Sydney Alexander
Place of event: FITZROY, Australia

Mother's name <Unknown Family Name>, Elizabeth
Mother's family name at birth TANNER
Father's Name: <Unknown Family Name>, PRICE Samuel

Married Annie Robins in 1913 which matches the AIF record

Regimental number	1956
Place of birth	Sydney New South Wales
Religion	Church of England
Occupation	Plasterer
Address	59 Hawke Street, West Melbourne, Victoria
Marital status	Married
Age at embarkation	28
Next of kin	Wife, Mrs A Price, 59 Hawke Street, West Melbourne, Victoria
Enlistment date	16 June 1915

1938 article describes him as Syd Price father of R Price http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19251115


1910 lists him as Syd playing for Brunswick http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26268869

Price from Richmond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page18536136

These last 2 suggest strongly it is Syd

 

[35Daicos]

Bumping these 3 entries up again. It relates to Syd Price who is currently listed as RFC in 1909, and a T Price who isnt.
I'm re-wondering if Tim Price played for Richmond and perhaps we have misidentified Syd Price.

In 1936 Barney Herbert talks about playing with TIM PRICE http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190322661 (and interestingly enough Howard Neil, though AFLTables has that RFC player listed as Harry Neil. But that's an issue for a later post).
There obviously was a Tim Price who played with Richmond in pre-season matches of 1909 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242058290

Now I notice my funding for the 1907,08,09 Richmond Guardian digitisation seems to be almost done. The pages are *nearly* live.
And a search shows that in a June 5th 1909 entry in the Richmond Guardian talks about a Tim Price playing . (see pic)View attachment 827449

This entry correlates on AFLTables to S. PRICE not playing in Rd 10 - yet the Rich. Guardian clearly looks like he is name T. Price
View attachment 827451

Something to keep an eye on over the next few days when they become live. I suspect these 3 years of digitisation might shed some interesting light when I go through each year game by game.

Because it could be that SYD PRICE was, for some reason also called TIM PRICE (as a nickname);
or SYD PRICE never played for Richmond and it was actually TIM PRICE;
or SYD PRICE played a few games, and TIM PRICE played a few games and they've been merged as one player over the year.
The 1910 Annual Report lists T. PRICE as the Rd 1 vs Sth Melbourne player - yet AFLTables lists that as Syd Price. Perhaps T.Price didnt play in 1909 but did in one game in 1910
In the 1909 Annual Report it only lists PRICE in the players, with no initial. Considering they added the initial 'T' in the 19190 Annual Report player list, that could possible mean the 1909 player isn't T Price'.

Something to keep an eye on over the next few days when those 1907-09 pages become live

Update:
The Richmond Guardian review of the Rd 1 1910 match says that Price (no initial) was "as cool as of yore" which interestingly is similar language when describingTim Price in my 1909 screenshot above ("as cool as a Siberian simoon all day")
View attachment 827456

Update 2:
The PRICE who played Round 1 1909 for Richmond is listed as from "Rose of Northcote" in the Australasian
Rose of Northcote was a junior team in Melbourne. I notice on wiki that Syd Price is listed as born in NSW.
It will be interesting to see where the Richmond Guardian say "Tim Price" is from.
View attachment 827459

Just regarding that 1918 article where Frank Goldin mentions Tim Price as one of the players in his (wartime) football team, if Tim Price was a different person to Syd Price then he should be found in the war records. I can't see anything in the WW1 records for a Tim/Timothy Price, though Sydney Alexander Price is of course there. So perhaps this strongly suggests that Tim was just a nickname (for Syd)?

I'm not sure whether you have seen this bit from early-1908: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242037505

 

[35Daicos]

Mystery solved!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206894271

 

[GreyCrow]

If he was a rover does that make Tiny Tim a nickname?

 

[rbartlett]

Mystery solved!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206894271
View attachment 827708

Fine work to all involved. That makes sense. They're the same person!
The old -fake-name-not-your-real-name trick

 

[RedmanWasHere]

If he was a rover does that make Tiny Tim a nickname?

Tiptoeing through tulips I see.