Analysis 2020 List, Game Plan and Best 22?

[The Gong]

How many hit outs to advantage did Naismith get

We lost the clearances can cherry pick stats I guess

We probably won’t play round 1 anyway

Lloyd is a good player his role is the issue imo , adds nothing he got exposed in the all star game

I could understand discussions about Lloyd's positioning on the field but how many posts have we had about Lloyd having "30 touches with no impact" or "he just chips it around". For me that's ignorance of what he's there to actually do which is clean up out of the backline. Those chips get marks and defuse the oppositions attack. He does that very, very well.

He's not there as a lockdown defender and he's not there to take three bounces and pump it 60 meters into the forward line. It would be brilliant if he did everything but teams are built on collective roles and doing them well and he's got his covered. He's the very least of our issues yet gets consistently knocked. I really don't get it.

Clarke on the other hand...

 

[The Gong]

Doing the same thing (same midfield) won’t help that though.

I've already had this argument. You don't fix something by pulling out the bits that work. Some think that Parker is one of the bits that doesn't work but I do not agree. We've got a young team and at the very least you need the experience of JPK and Parker while we've got them and developing the young guys around them.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I've already had this argument. You don't fix something by pulling out the bits that work. Some think that Parker is one of the bits that doesn't work but I do not agree. We've got a young team and at the very least you need the experience of JPK and Parker while we've got them and developing the young guys around them.

I feel Parker can work even better forward. Let’s be honest his kicking is average to poor but up forward he can take a mark and be very dangerous. My issue is that these new mids aren’t getting any experience at all. We need to use JPK when he’s still here and playing well.

 

[The King!]

I could understand discussions about Lloyd's positioning on the field but how many posts have we had about Lloyd having "30 touches with no impact" or "he just chips it around". For me that's ignorance of what he's there to actually do which is clean up out of the backline. Those chips get marks and defuse the oppositions attack. He does that very, very well.

He's not there as a lockdown defender and he's not there to take three bounces and pump it 60 meters into the forward line. It would be brilliant if he did everything but teams are built on collective roles and doing them well and he's got his covered. He's the very least of our issues yet gets consistently knocked. I really don't get it.

Clarke on the other hand...

It’s not hate or knocking Lloyd to discuss his role

Secondly what’s he clean up? He keeps butchering it and gets it back or does a few 1-2s or short passes to no where

Last year I think he had no impact on games

When he was surrounded by guns his role became redundant , coaches are wasting him imo

 

[The Gong]

It’s not hate or knocking Lloyd to discuss his role

Secondly what’s he clean up? He keeps butchering it and gets it back or does a few 1-2s or short passes to no where

Last year I think he had no impact on games

When he was surrounded by guns his role became redundant , coaches are wasting him imo

	● Ranked 4th in Total Kicks	● Ranked 7th in Total Disposals
● Ranked 18th in Total AFL Fantasy Score	● Ranked 5th in Total Uncontested Possessions
● Ranked 4th in Total Effective Disposals	● Ranked 3rd in Total Rebound 50s
● Ranked 4th in Total Metres Gained	● Ranked 2nd in Kicks Per Game
● Ranked 6th in Disposals Per Game	● Ranked 15th in Supercoach Score Per Game
● Ranked 12th in AFL Fantasy Score Per Game	● Ranked 5th in Uncontested Possessions Per Game
● Ranked 1st in Effective Disposals Per Game	● Ranked 2nd in Rebound 50s Per Game
● Ranked 1st in Metres Gained Per Game

[TD valign="middle"]

Jake Lloyd 2019 Statistical Rankings​

[/TD]

 

[Punts]

Season will likely be stuffed anyway

Doubt they will play the first 5

 

[Wolftone]

How many hit outs to advantage did Naismith get

We lost the clearances can cherry pick stats I guess

We probably won’t play round 1 anyway

Lloyd is a good player his role is the issue imo , adds nothing he got exposed in the all star game

Goldie & Sammy same, same in effective HO

On U27 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Wolftone]

Our problem is that we don't get it to the forward line. We were second last for inside 50s last year with only Gold Coast behind us. Our back and forward lines are actually pretty good but we're getting murdered in the middle. It is THE priority.

Agree totally and we are fixing that. Just got to get the combos right. Parker & Joey cannot coexist in the centre ever. Joey had Jack, Pebbles, Hannas, Goodsie & Macca. Very different to Parker, Rowie, Ollie, Paps, Grey and Taylor. I think our second quarter on Monday got the mix right. Parker, Rowie & Ollie then Joey, Taylor and Papa/Grey. Very good.

On U27 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Wolftone]

I could understand discussions about Lloyd's positioning on the field but how many posts have we had about Lloyd having "30 touches with no impact" or "he just chips it around". For me that's ignorance of what he's there to actually do which is clean up out of the backline. Those chips get marks and defuse the oppositions attack. He does that very, very well.

He's not there as a lockdown defender and he's not there to take three bounces and pump it 60 meters into the forward line. It would be brilliant if he did everything but teams are built on collective roles and doing them well and he's got his covered. He's the very least of our issues yet gets consistently knocked. I really don't get it.

Clarke on the other hand...

I agree. I think Lloydy is a wonderful player and those that think him limited are deluded. By the way I am thinking of getting my psychologist friend to read some of these threads. Oh s**t I forgot, he does. I might ask him what he thinks lol


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[The King!]

Goldie & Sammy same, same in effective HO

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Where did you get effective hit outs from?

 

[Wolftone]

I feel Parker can work even better forward. Let’s be honest his kicking is average to poor but up forward he can take a mark and be very dangerous. My issue is that these new mids aren’t getting any experience at all. We need to use JPK when he’s still here and playing well.

No. Parker worked very well in combo with Ollie & Rowie on the weekend. The start of the second saw this combo in the centre square. They were sensational. Then Joey, Taylor and Clarke (could not remember who it was). Paps & Grey also had stints. The coaches got the mix right but I noticed on replay that they were still trying combos in the second half. I do not think Parker, Rowie & Ollie suit Joey's style as much as Taylor, Grey and Clarke. I think George works better with Parker as well.

I think if we can get the combos right then we will do very well as an extraction side. We will attack from centre bounces. Let's face it Joey is a leave it to me player in the clinches. I have seen many times when he should have pulled back and become the deceiver but he didn't. I don't think he trusts his ability as a deceiver and only believes he is an extractor. I think that is because he has some issues with his disposal and decision making on the outside. In space he is generally perfect but deceiving just outside the contest he seems to rush the disposal, sometimes his decision is horrific sometimes the disposal scrappy or not to advantage. He is a great player I just wish he would trust his ability.

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[Wolftone]

Where did you get effective hit outs from?

By watching the replay and counting. I am pretty sure Goldie got one more but Sam was not opposed to him.

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[caesar88]

No. Parker worked very well in combo with Ollie & Rowie on the weekend. The start of the second saw this combo in the centre square. They were sensational. Then Joey, Taylor and Clarke (could not remember who it was). Paps & Grey also had stints. The coaches got the mix right but I noticed on replay that they were still trying combos in the second half. I do not think Parker, Rowie & Ollie suit Joey's style as much as Taylor, Grey and Clarke. I think George works better with Parker as well.

I think if we can get the combos right then we will do very well as an extraction side. We will attack from centre bounces. Let's face it Joey is a leave it to me player in the clinches. I have seen many times when he should have pulled back and become the deceiver but he didn't. I don't think he trusts his ability as a deceiver and only believes he is an extractor. I think that is because he has some issues with his disposal and decision making on the outside. In space he is generally perfect but deceiving just outside the contest he seems to rush the disposal, sometimes his decision is horrific sometimes the disposal scrappy or not to advantage. He is a great player I just wish he would trust his ability.

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IMO JPK is nowhere near as bad as Parker in this regard. I think Parker is a liability in the middle. Tries to play like JPK when he is not as big, nor as strong. Hack kicks off one step without even looking. Burns team mates in a better position. The logic seems to be, if Parker's heavily involved in the action, he must be having a good game. Then people point to his disposal count or his clearance numbers or the contested possessions he's had. All null and void stats where Parker is concerned because I reckon about 75% of plays where Parker is involved end up to our disadvantage.

JPK can also be a culprit of this, but at least he has moments of brilliance where he finds a loose Swan from the middle of a scrum, or takes that extra second to compose himself when clearing it out. Just the things that indicate if a player has midfield nous or not.

Parker has none whatsoever. He is a brute pressure forward who for the last several years has found himself at centre bounces where he does not belong. Inside 50, there are few better players in the competition who can make something happen out of nothing like Parker can. He knows where the goals are and often tries audacious plays because he backs his goal sense and has been rewarded for it over and over. He adopts the same mentality at centre bounces, tries to make something out of nothing, be it through a random bomb in the air, or a kick and hope soccer off the ground. It's all very admirable and speaks to his desire to win at all costs. But it's ugly to watch, doesn't achieve anything, and usually ends up detrimental to his own team.

 

[Bear31]

IMO JPK is nowhere near as bad as Parker in this regard. I think Parker is a liability in the middle. Tries to play like JPK when he is not as big, nor as strong. Hack kicks off one step without even looking. Burns team mates in a better position. The logic seems to be, if Parker's heavily involved in the action, he must be having a good game. Then people point to his disposal count or his clearance numbers or the contested possessions he's had. All null and void stats where Parker is concerned because I reckon about 75% of plays where Parker is involved end up to our disadvantage.

JPK can also be a culprit of this, but at least he has moments of brilliance where he finds a loose Swan from the middle of a scrum, or takes that extra second to compose himself when clearing it out. Just the things that indicate if a player has midfield nous or not.

Parker has none whatsoever. He is a brute pressure forward who for the last several years has found himself at centre bounces where he does not belong. Inside 50, there are few better players in the competition who can make something happen out of nothing like Parker can. He knows where the goals are and often tries audacious plays because he backs his goal sense and has been rewarded for it over and over. He adopts the same mentality at centre bounces, tries to make something out of nothing, be it through a random bomb in the air, or a kick and hope soccer off the ground. It's all very admirable and speaks to his desire to win at all costs. But it's ugly to watch, doesn't achieve anything, and usually ends up detrimental to his own team.

in an ideal world id like to see both parker and heeney forward. both are unbelieveable marks. heeney not sold on him as an onballer fulltime. but we are an inexperienced team in the middle. JPK plus rowbottom, Ollie and George plus others running through the centre in a year where i reckon who gives a ..... in may be time to try some young guys more.

 

[The Gong]

IMO JPK is nowhere near as bad as Parker in this regard. I think Parker is a liability in the middle. Tries to play like JPK when he is not as big, nor as strong. Hack kicks off one step without even looking. Burns team mates in a better position. The logic seems to be, if Parker's heavily involved in the action, he must be having a good game. Then people point to his disposal count or his clearance numbers or the contested possessions he's had. All null and void stats where Parker is concerned because I reckon about 75% of plays where Parker is involved end up to our disadvantage.

JPK can also be a culprit of this, but at least he has moments of brilliance where he finds a loose Swan from the middle of a scrum, or takes that extra second to compose himself when clearing it out. Just the things that indicate if a player has midfield nous or not.

Parker has none whatsoever. He is a brute pressure forward who for the last several years has found himself at centre bounces where he does not belong. Inside 50, there are few better players in the competition who can make something happen out of nothing like Parker can. He knows where the goals are and often tries audacious plays because he backs his goal sense and has been rewarded for it over and over. He adopts the same mentality at centre bounces, tries to make something out of nothing, be it through a random bomb in the air, or a kick and hope soccer off the ground. It's all very admirable and speaks to his desire to win at all costs. But it's ugly to watch, doesn't achieve anything, and usually ends up detrimental to his own team.

This is unmitigated nonsense

 

[caesar88]

This is unmitigated nonsense

In your opinion.

You and I have gone back and forth on this topic though and it's never gone anywhere previously so what exactly was your response supposed to achieve?

 

[The Gong]

In your opinion.

You and I have gone back and forth on this topic though and it's never gone anywhere previously so what exactly was your response supposed to achieve?

Yes, in my opinion its unmitigated nonsense.

I don't know what sort of blood feud there is between you and Luke Parker but saying he's a liability and 75% of the plays he's involved with break down is ridiculous.

He's a two time club champion, All Australian and Brownlow runner-up. He is absolutely down on his previous form but your commentary about his work in the midfield makes him sound like he's Paul Chambers.

Yes he is very effective as a forward as well. More than ready to support that. You just seem to have this black mark against him that doesn't bear scrutiny.

 

[caesar88]

Yes, in my opinion its unmitigated nonsense.

I don't know what sort of blood feud there is between you and Luke Parker but saying he's a liability and 75% of the plays he's involved with break down is ridiculous.

He's a two time club champion, All Australian and Brownlow runner-up. He is absolutely down on his previous form but your commentary about his work in the midfield makes him sound like he's Paul Chambers.

Yes he is very effective as a forward as well. More than ready to support that. You just seem to have this black mark against him that doesn't bear scrutiny.

Why is it that when someone doesn't rate a player there has to be some sort of blood feud or beef behind it. Maybe I just don't rate how he plays regardless of his accolades?

Not saying I don't love him as a player or a representative of our club. To me he is just a forward playing in the wrong position and performing as I would expect a player to perform when in the wrong position.

 

[The Gong]

Why is it that when someone doesn't rate a player there has to be some sort of blood feud or beef behind it. Maybe I just don't rate how he plays regardless of his accolades?

Not saying I don't love him as a player or a representative of our club. To me he is just a forward playing in the wrong position and performing as I would expect a player to perform when in the wrong position.

It's just banter, mate.

He just seems to be your whipping boy and I don't feel its justified. He has dropped in output without the support of Jack and Hanners but I don't think he's anywhere near a liability.

 

[SeanM]

Clarke's gut running is his strength. He has also proved to be a more than competent tagger. He is good at making position and getting the pill. But I would love him to put some really big time into his disposal and tackling. If he can clean these two areas up he will be a very good AFL player.

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Yeah I noticed his disposal and composure were not great in the North Melbourne game. But he is 22 and in the second year on our list. I feel that if can make slight improvement in that area, he can be a useful player for us. Because I think we can use a gut running ball winner.

And we don't have a lot of inside midfield depth beyond Kennedy, Parker, Hewett, Rowbottom and Florent. So we will need him during the season.

 

[caesar88]

It's just banter, mate.

He just seems to be your whipping boy and I don't feel its justified. He has dropped in output without the support of Jack and Hanners but I don't think he's anywhere near a liability.

Maybe he is my whipping boy but it's because I feel he is a direct culprit in the biggest area of weakness for us, and is a repeat offender because he is starting in that area of weakness more than any other Swan besides JPK. So to me it's not just a "I don't rate him but meh, it's not that bad." To me it's a massive, massive factor in why our midfield is where it is.

All good to have just banter, there have been people far more bothered by my opinions than you, but I should note that I've been pretty consistent in terms of not really rating midfielders of the Parker & Kennedy style, which extends beyond either of them to Brownlow Medalists Fyfe and Dangerfield, and All Australian mids like Cripps and Oliver. So definitely not just a Parker-centric criticism. He just happens to be in our team, while they are not.

 

[Wolftone]

IMO JPK is nowhere near as bad as Parker in this regard. I think Parker is a liability in the middle. Tries to play like JPK when he is not as big, nor as strong. Hack kicks off one step without even looking. Burns team mates in a better position. The logic seems to be, if Parker's heavily involved in the action, he must be having a good game. Then people point to his disposal count or his clearance numbers or the contested possessions he's had. All null and void stats where Parker is concerned because I reckon about 75% of plays where Parker is involved end up to our disadvantage.

JPK can also be a culprit of this, but at least he has moments of brilliance where he finds a loose Swan from the middle of a scrum, or takes that extra second to compose himself when clearing it out. Just the things that indicate if a player has midfield nous or not.

Parker has none whatsoever. He is a brute pressure forward who for the last several years has found himself at centre bounces where he does not belong. Inside 50, there are few better players in the competition who can make something happen out of nothing like Parker can. He knows where the goals are and often tries audacious plays because he backs his goal sense and has been rewarded for it over and over. He adopts the same mentality at centre bounces, tries to make something out of nothing, be it through a random bomb in the air, or a kick and hope soccer off the ground. It's all very admirable and speaks to his desire to win at all costs. But it's ugly to watch, doesn't achieve anything, and usually ends up detrimental to his own team.

JPK does not blend well with Ollie and Rowie.

On U27 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[The Gong]

Maybe he is my whipping boy but it's because I feel he is a direct culprit in the biggest area of weakness for us, and is a repeat offender because he is starting in that area of weakness more than any other Swan besides JPK. So to me it's not just a "I don't rate him but meh, it's not that bad." To me it's a massive, massive factor in why our midfield is where it is.

All good to have just banter, there have been people far more bothered by my opinions than you, but I should note that I've been pretty consistent in terms of not really rating midfielders of the Parker & Kennedy style, which extends beyond either of them to Brownlow Medalists Fyfe and Dangerfield, and All Australian mids like Cripps and Oliver. So definitely not just a Parker-centric criticism. He just happens to be in our team, while they are not.

But right there you don't rate the playing style of the elite midfielders in the league. I don't get how that supports the method you use in rating them.

Should everybody be Dustin Martin?

 

[caesar88]

JPK does not blend well with Ollie and Rowie.

On U27 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Tbh I don't think either of JPK or Parker blend well with those two. Just two different approaches that seem very obvious looking at them.

But JPK has his moments with them where they seem to click.

 

[caesar88]

But right there you don't rate the playing style of the elite midfielders in the league. I don't get how that supports the method you use in rating them.

Should everybody be Dustin Martin?

I am not a fan of that style at all and don't think it's conducive to clean footy on a micro scale, and success on a greater scale. Which is ultimately what I think makes the best players what they are.

You use Martin for example. He is Richmond's best player, but he is not their best midfielder. IMO that title goes to Prestia, who is always up to his eye-balls in Richmond's most effective work from the midfield. A no-fuss player who rarely wastes it, but good luck him getting the recognition that those 'elite midfielders' you listed get.