Politics So I guess when the s**t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

[Johnny Bananas]

Freedom of enterprise, every single citizen in a liberal democratic western society is allowed to exercise freedom of enterprise. Using entrepreneurial skills to better themselves in a competition based society an example.

True, unless they want to sell drugs, or in some places, sell sex. Every society puts restrictions on what people are allowed to engage in for enterprise. I believe in people being mostly free to do so, with some obvious exceptions (slavery, child sex work, etc).

From your answers, it's clear you prefer a freer society for the individual more than a populace ruled more by state. Thanks for your input.

I believe in both. I think the state has a large role to play in the economy and in law. But yes, I would describe myself as more libertarian than authoritarian.

That's akin to saying a country like China, governed by the Chinese Communist Party, that their citizens live in a liberal society like you and I. That's debatable.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that authoritarian tendencies don't have to have anything to do with economic policy. China is communist in name only, it's more accurate to say that it's an authoritarian state, practising state capitalism. I agree it is not liberal. However there have been societies that were much more liberal than today's China which had similar economic policies, or had even more state control of the economy.

Authoritarianism is a by product, hijacked by ill intended individuals, not an intent of any one societal model.

I disagree. Dictatorships are designed to be authoritarian. As was Stalin's concept of how to run the Soviet Union.

Funnily enough, before Stalin took power, Lenin wanted to move to a state capitalist model not unlike today's China, and he was nowhere near as brutal in his methods. But Stalin changed all that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I disagree. Dictatorships are designed to be authoritarian. As was Stalin's concept of how to run the Soviet Union.

Dictatorship is not a societal model designed for the masses, it's designed to favour one or a small group of individuals.

Every other societal model IS designed for the masses, capitalism is free reign with a view to citizen v citizen competition in civility in an economic sense.

Fascism is capitalism hijacked by one or a small group of individuals for their own benefit (even if they believe they're doing 'right' by their populace), then it's no longer capitalism anymore.

Every societal model with good intentions, which is everything except a dictatorship, is flawed in varying degrees because of ill intended members of those societies. It's not the intention of the model.

Yeah I get the lines are blurred, that's only because of the leaders not the model. Thatcher for example vs Ji Xi, the former is not a poster boy for free liberalism in a capitalist society even though Britain is widely considered a capitalist democratic society since AD.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Huge amounts of manufacturing will leave China and go back to the US etc.

Sounds expensive

 

[Mofra]

Fascism is capitalism hijacked by one or a small group of individuals for their own benefit (even if they believe they're doing 'right' by their populace), then it's no longer capitalism anymore.

Fascism is a political system, capitalism (in most of its forms) is an economic system. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Fascism is a political system, capitalism (in most of its forms) is an economic system. They're not mutually exclusive.

No they're not mutually exclusive, never suggested they were. Fascism is not a political system designed as an intended good for all like any other model is.

 

[Marcel Proust]

One in five USA households with children don't have enough food

Cars at Dallas foodbanks currently lined up for miles

Edit; source CNN, this morning

 

[Ants]

No they're not mutually exclusive, never suggested they were. Fascism is not a political system designed as an intended good for all like any other model is.

It's often designed as an intended good for a majority of the people. Fascism often targets minorities and emphasises the greater good for the majority tribe. And it is usually sold as being much better for that group.

 

[HairyO]

Sounds expensive

Short term. But it could be good for us. China will re-think their bully-boy threats against us if they are about to lose a huge amount of trade with the US.

 

[Carringbush2010]

It's often designed as an intended good for a majority of the people. Fascism often targets minorities and emphasises the greater good for the majority tribe. And it is usually sold as being much better for that group.

That maybe the definition but certainly not the intention.

 

[Ants]

That maybe the definition but certainly not the intention.

I don't have any academic credentials/reading on this, so I might not be following a book definition. But certainly people like Hitler, Mussolini, some of the South American dictators, certainly made a large part of their pitch about defending the majority, that they would improve their lot. And although those people were clearly all in it for the power, I think most would also have said they were for (their) people as well.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I don't have any academic credentials/reading on this, so I might not be following a book definition. But certainly people like Hitler, Mussolini, some of the South American dictators, certainly made a large part of their pitch about defending the majority, that they would improve their lot. And although those people were clearly all in it for the power, I think most would also have said they were for (their) people as well.

Dictatorship is another thing entirely! Dictators take over any societal model for self gain.

Without getting off topic I think we're getting into the nitty gritty of what different models are. Socialism which is what the thread implies is which model we're currently in, even if tongue in cheek.

My query if you will since its inception is how people are finding that 'socialism'.

 

[Number37]

My query if you will since its inception is how people are finding that 'socialism'.

I would suggest >95% are finding it much better than the alternative.

 

[Total Power]

One in five USA households with children don't have enough food

Cars at Dallas foodbanks currently lined up for miles

Half of these families has to be black or colored. It's the strange political and social system they have rather than economic system. I have never seen a country where you have to state your ethnicity while filling up a form.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Half of these families has to be black or colored. It's the strange political and social system they have rather than economic system. I have never seen a country where you have to state your ethnicity while filling up a form.

Largely the same thing

 

[sdfc]

Half of these families has to be black or colored. It's the strange political and social system they have rather than economic system. I have never seen a country where you have to state your ethnicity while filling up a form.

It's a bit of both.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So did everyone enjoy their socialism trip? Or are many of you previously in support of it, have now had a change of heart? Or somewhere in between?

I am very, very happy with the fact that, because the industry in which I have expertise has been completely destroyed by the pandemic, the government has given me money with which to pay my bills. So yeah, socialism is great, but I would just call it common sense and I think even Morrison realises that.

 

[Total Power]

Largely the same thing

It's not, the blacks are socially disadvantaged, the same with Muslims in Sweden. Why do you think they live in ghettos in a rich city like Stockholm where income equality is way higher than most countries?

 

[sdfc]

I am very, very happy with the fact that, because the industry in which I have expertise has been completely destroyed by the pandemic, the government has given me money with which to pay my bills. So yeah, socialism is great, but I would just call it common sense and I think even Morrison realises that.

The employment report had 300k people gaining employment in April. Seems odd to me.

 

[sdfc]

Just to clarify, 900k lost their jobs.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I would suggest >95% are finding it much better than the alternative.

I doubt that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I am very, very happy with the fact that, because the industry in which I have expertise has been completely destroyed by the pandemic, the government has given me money with which to pay my bills. So yeah, socialism is great, but I would just call it common sense and I think even Morrison realises that.

Of course it's common sense, brought about by necessity.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Of course it's common sense, brought about by necessity.

Just a pity it took the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression to finally spur them into action.

And a further pity that as we ease some restrictions and look for a way forward, early signs are they haven’t leaned a damn thing from it.

 

[Gethelred]

I doubt that.

What would the alternative be, in your eyes?

 

[Gethelred]

The employment report had 300k people gaining employment in April. Seems odd to me.

Employment numbers are bullshit. Definitions are skewed as * since Howard.

 

[Ants]

The employment report had 300k people gaining employment in April. Seems odd to me.

Places like Woolworths and Coles are hiring, because they're busier than normal.

Of course it's common sense, brought about by necessity.

So you're agreeing socialism is common sense then?