Opinion VICBias - Genuine Discussion

Remove this Banner Ad

Apr 23, 2016
30,511
42,680
AFL Club
Essendon
There is one massive thing you are not taking into consideration. Foxtel is not paying the big dollars for customers they already have, that means nothing to them. They pay the big dollars for potential customers, so the big money comes because they want to grow their customer base. There is not a lot of growth left in Victoria.

Advertising dollars. More games, more advertising slots, more dollars.
 
Feb 28, 2007
51,384
66,884
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Advertising dollars. More games, more advertising slots, more dollars.

Perception is everything as well. Part of the reason the NRL struggles to get the money the AFL gets is because the NRL is perceived to be less national than the AFL. The VFL would have a perception of being way way way less national than the break away league.

It also would not take much to break the VFL up. All the break away league would need is one or two of the bigger Victorian clubs to join and the VFL would break up. I think the break away league could convince a few pragmatic big Victorian clubs to join.
 
Apr 23, 2016
30,511
42,680
AFL Club
Essendon
Perception is everything as well. Part of the reason the NRL struggles to get the money the AFL gets is because the NRL is perceived to be less national than the AFL. The VFL would have a perception of being way way way less national than the break away league.

It also would not take much to break the VFL up. All the break away league would need is one or two of the bigger Victorian clubs to join and the VFL would break up. I think the break away league could convince a few pragmatic big Victorian clubs to join.

It's also absolutely not happening.

As much as SA and WA like to posture.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

There is one massive thing you are not taking into consideration. Foxtel is not paying the big dollars for customers they already have, that means nothing to them. They pay the big dollars for potential customers, so the big money comes because they want to grow their customer base. There is not a lot of growth left in Victoria.

Also while the break away league would need to support GWS and Gold Coast, which isn't ideal, the VFL would need to support St Kilda, North Melbourne, Melbourne and Western Bulldogs. Not to mention there is a huge shine taken off the code if it was solely a Victorian game. The Tasmanian government could probably be convinced to switch to the break away league too with the promise of a Tasmanian team in the next 5 years.

Compared that to the break away league, which would have a much more national feel, which would make it feel more prestigious.


So you think foxtel would pay more for people who might possibly pay than for people who do actually pay? Why would they do that?

The non Vic comp would have 2 clubs that actually make money (WCE mostly, but also Adelaide to a degree), 2 clubs that can hold their own (Freo & Sydney), one marginal (Port) and 3 needing massive and regular payments (Brisbane, GWS & GC).

Vic can also optimise grounds, travel and finals far for effectively.

Simply, the Vic comp's finances would be far better.




That said, given the AFL owns the rights to club identities, the non Vic comp wouldn't consist of any club named Sydney, or containing things like 'Swans', red and white guernseys, your song, etc. etc. etc. (that applies for all 18 clubs).
 
Perception is everything as well. Part of the reason the NRL struggles to get the money the AFL gets is because the NRL is perceived to be less national than the AFL. The VFL would have a perception of being way way way less national than the break away league.

It also would not take much to break the VFL up. All the break away league would need is one or two of the bigger Victorian clubs to join and the VFL would break up. I think the break away league could convince a few pragmatic big Victorian clubs to join.

Trouble would be convincing big VFL clubs to move to a smaller comp that didn't contain any of their traditional rivals. (and that they had to sacrifice their identity to join).
 

Topkent

Confirmed ITK Drafting King
Aug 29, 2010
61,054
84,968
Canada
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Winnipeg Jets
How about these

Travel - you mentioned it then forgot it. A big factor. The home team should get in a plane and fly around for 2 hours to even it up.

Accomodation - living in your own home or living in a hotel with unfamiliar surroundings, beds, pillows, food, snoring roommate and no family supports

Ground familiarity - more important than other sports given the different size and shape arenas in AFL. Game plans don't suit all different widths and lengths of grounds. Wind conditions, depth of pockets, dead spots, goal kicking knowledge etc. Even the bounce of the ball varies from state to state.

Crowd split - each team gets 17,000 with the rest to corporates and neutrals, some of which are sold to team fans. Some fans travel better than others. How many real fans did GWS have last year? Neutral fans who wouldn't mind a GWS/Fremantle etc win don't make much noise.

Psychology - defending home territory is a real thing that spurs the home team on.

Umpire neutrality - problematic. Tell that to Sydney who copped an all time low 8 free kicks to the Bulldogs 20

In a game of inches all these things add up to advantage the GF home team by several goals
So much of that is nonsensical crap. I'll give you travel and home familiarity that's a real thing.

Ground familiarity bitch please. Ground sizes change all over the world in all different sports. It's not exclusive to AFL you've just guessed that.
Again the G is a couple meteres longer and wider than Perth. If players can't adjust to that they ain't playing in a GF

Umpire neutrality. Wut
Cause that would be fair in any other state 😂😂
Also that's just horseshit. Show me a stat that says vic sides always get more free kicks in GFs.

I love that you used crowd split for GWS, they would have been outnumbered at their own stadium you plonker.
 

PerthblueGold

Debutant
Sep 30, 2018
139
238
AFL Club
West Coast
So much of that is nonsensical crap. I'll give you travel and home familiarity that's a real thing.

Ground familiarity bitch please. Ground sizes change all over the world in all different sports. It's not exclusive to AFL you've just guessed that.
Again the G is a couple meteres longer and wider than Perth. If players can't adjust to that they ain't playing in a GF

Umpire neutrality. Wut
Cause that would be fair in any other state 😂😂
Also that's just horseshit. Show me a stat that says vic sides always get more free kicks in GFs.

I love that you used crowd split for GWS, they would have been outnumbered at their own stadium you plonker.
It`s not just ground familiarity..it`s also an interstate team having to travel and all that comes with that..which would you prefer to do?
 
Oct 3, 2007
16,084
17,344
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
West Perth
Trouble would be convincing big VFL clubs to move to a smaller comp that didn't contain any of their traditional rivals. (and that they had to sacrifice their identity to join).

It would be easy mate, money talks and if anyone put a breakaway league together it would have to be done with an endless pit of money that can be used to stop any other comp excelling. Richmond offer Dustin Martin a million per season, breakaway league offer him 2 million. It's a no brainer where he would play.
Any breakaway would be have to be about getting all the best players in the breakaway comp, colours, jumpers etc etc all get sorted out down the track if compromise occurs. Either way money will triumph and as much as I love that the Vics love their sport and how they support sport they would also gravitate to where the best players are, they may try and hold on to tradition and history but it would just be time.
Anyway, it won't happen as no one has the money to do it. But it certainly could happen if someone did and wanted to do it.
 

Apsaalooke

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2012
3,727
5,644
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, Ozark Mountain Daredevils
So much of that is nonsensical crap. I'll give you travel and home familiarity that's a real thing.

Ground familiarity bitch please. Ground sizes change all over the world in all different sports. It's not exclusive to AFL you've just guessed that.
Again the G is a couple meteres longer and wider than Perth. If players can't adjust to that they ain't playing in a GF

Umpire neutrality. Wut
Cause that would be fair in any other state 😂😂
Also that's just horseshit. Show me a stat that says vic sides always get more free kicks in GFs.

I love that you used crowd split for GWS, they would have been outnumbered at their own stadium you plonker.
They're all relevant and reasonable points. If you can't see it it's not my problem. There's a reason this thread is called VICBias
 
Oct 3, 2009
2,280
3,460
AFL Club
Richmond
It would be easy mate, money talks and if anyone put a breakaway league together it would have to be done with an endless pit of money that can be used to stop any other comp excelling. Richmond offer Dustin Martin a million per season, breakaway league offer him 2 million. It's a no brainer where he would play.
Any breakaway would be have to be about getting all the best players in the breakaway comp, colours, jumpers etc etc all get sorted out down the track if compromise occurs. Either way money will triumph and as much as I love that the Vics love their sport and how they support sport they would also gravitate to where the best players are, they may try and hold on to tradition and history but it would just be time.
Anyway, it won't happen as no one has the money to do it. But it certainly could happen if someone did and wanted to do it.

Here in Victoria we love our clubs by an exponential factor more than we do any individual player. There's no way I would support any other side than the Richmond Tigers if a breakaway league formed. I can understand the interstate supporters who's teams have been around for 20-30 years just changing clubs based on a new comp but no chance that happening with the Vic clubs.
 
Feb 28, 2007
51,384
66,884
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Here in Victoria we love our clubs by an exponential factor more than we do any individual player. There's no way I would support any other side than the Richmond Tigers if a breakaway league formed. I can understand the interstate supporters who's teams have been around for 20-30 years just changing clubs based on a new comp but no chance that happening with the Vic clubs.

It wouldn't be about trying to get you to support anyone else. The breakaway league would be about starting a new league and waiting out the VFL, watching a few VFL clubs die and then having the remaining stronger Victorian clubs join the breakaway league.
 
Oct 3, 2007
16,084
17,344
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
West Perth
Here in Victoria we love our clubs by an exponential factor more than we do any individual player. There's no way I would support any other side than the Richmond Tigers if a breakaway league formed. I can understand the interstate supporters who's teams have been around for 20-30 years just changing clubs based on a new comp but no chance that happening with the Vic clubs.

My Point is that if a breakaway happened your club the Tigers would be keen to get involved, the history suggests that your club would end up second tier otherwise and under this scenario where the breakaway has two to every one dollar the big vic clubs would not sit there thinking the old VFL will stay relevant.
I still strongly support West perth and in fact they are in my my heart but I also follow footy in the AFL so i follow the Eagles.
Victoria never had to go through that scenario and thats great for them. But make no mistake the outcome would be the same for a large majority.
Like I said this is all very hypothetical so it matters not.
 
It would be easy mate, money talks and if anyone put a breakaway league together it would have to be done with an endless pit of money that can be used to stop any other comp excelling. Richmond offer Dustin Martin a million per season, breakaway league offer him 2 million. It's a no brainer where he would play.
Any breakaway would be have to be about getting all the best players in the breakaway comp, colours, jumpers etc etc all get sorted out down the track if compromise occurs. Either way money will triumph and as much as I love that the Vics love their sport and how they support sport they would also gravitate to where the best players are, they may try and hold on to tradition and history but it would just be time.
Anyway, it won't happen as no one has the money to do it. But it certainly could happen if someone did and wanted to do it.

My Point is that if a breakaway happened your club the Tigers would be keen to get involved, the history suggests that your club would end up second tier otherwise and under this scenario where the breakaway has two to every one dollar the big vic clubs would not sit there thinking the old VFL will stay relevant.
I still strongly support West perth and in fact they are in my my heart but I also follow footy in the AFL so i follow the Eagles.
Victoria never had to go through that scenario and thats great for them. But make no mistake the outcome would be the same for a large majority.
Like I said this is all very hypothetical so it matters not.

Where does this hypothetical money come from in this situation??

As discussed previously-- the TV rights would be lower for any "Breakaway League" compared to a 'VFL' (in my opinion/analysis), there's very little growth within the 'Top 'Breakaway' clubs to build up more revenue to afford this type of pay disparity. The only way this league would exist is if a wealthy individual/organisation was prepared to lose MASSIVE amounts of money in forming this league and then continue to hand money over until it simply 'outlasted' the 'VFL'. Considering the AFL currently owns Marvel Stadium the investment to 'kill off' the 'VFL' would be in excess of half a billion dollars, to have a more equal competition without particularly any guarantee that the current revenue streams would still exist.

Seems like a massive waste of money to eliminate #VICBIAS
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Port Adel Proud

All Australian
Apr 22, 2020
724
991
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
It would be easy mate, money talks and if anyone put a breakaway league together it would have to be done with an endless pit of money that can be used to stop any other comp excelling. Richmond offer Dustin Martin a million per season, breakaway league offer him 2 million. It's a no brainer where he would play.
Any breakaway would be have to be about getting all the best players in the breakaway comp, colours, jumpers etc etc all get sorted out down the track if compromise occurs. Either way money will triumph and as much as I love that the Vics love their sport and how they support sport they would also gravitate to where the best players are, they may try and hold on to tradition and history but it would just be time.
Anyway, it won't happen as no one has the money to do it. But it certainly could happen if someone did and wanted to do it.

The tribal nature of club support ought not be underestimated. A good Cardinal supporter should know.
 
Oct 3, 2007
16,084
17,344
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
West Perth
Where does this hypothetical money come from in this situation??

As discussed previously-- the TV rights would be lower for any "Breakaway League" compared to a 'VFL' (in my opinion/analysis), there's very little growth within the 'Top 'Breakaway' clubs to build up more revenue to afford this type of pay disparity. The only way this league would exist is if a wealthy individual/organisation was prepared to lose MASSIVE amounts of money in forming this league and then continue to hand money over until it simply 'outlasted' the 'VFL'. Considering the AFL currently owns Marvel Stadium the investment to 'kill off' the 'VFL' would be in excess of half a billion dollars, to have a more equal competition without particularly any guarantee that the current revenue streams would still exist.

Seems like a massive waste of money to eliminate #VICBIAS

It comes from the hypothetical billionaire who will spare no expense to get what he wants. I didn't raise a breakaway league, I just said it was very possible if someone chose to do who had endless cash.
 
It comes from the hypothetical billionaire who will spare no expense to get what he wants. I didn't raise a breakaway league, I just said it was very possible if someone chose to do who had endless cash.

I must've missed the part where some else inserted the Billionaire with endless cash into this hypothetical. Apologises.

Based on the original hypothetical by RUNVS (as just a break away league financially supported by the stronger clubs) I don't think it'd be viable or possible for the 'Break way league' to be able to out spend compared to a 'AFL/VFL' because as I've said-- I'm not sure what income streams they'll receive over the established competition.
 

Pottering

Club Legend
Aug 13, 2011
1,341
660
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Perth (Redlegs), Hiroshima Carp
I have a genuine question as to why teams complain about a #VICBIAS , but before you answer why you think there is one, please read these facts before you do:

All these facts were before each club CHOSE to enter the competition, not changed after-

- The GF has been locked in at the G for years, that was the case before any club entered from outside Vic, and let's be honest, as the home of footy, was never likely to be changed either
- In fact, at the time of entering the comp, at least 1 Prelim was meant to be guaranteed at the G also, that has actually moved back to teams earning the right to host
- When choosing to enter the comp, there was already 10 teams in Melb... THIS IS NOT NEW. Non-Vic teams where always going to have to travel every second week while Vic teams play away games still in VIC. Where do you expect Vic teams to play away games against other Vic teams... no seriously, where?
- People whinge it's still the old VFL... It is, the AFL is not a newly formed comp, it is a rebranded/renamed version of the existing comp non Vic teams again CHOSE to join

On the flip side, things that are now (or at one time have been) in place that weren't in place before No Vic teams joined the comp:

- National draft, gone are the days every kid in a zone was linked to that club. By weight of numbers alone, Vic produces the most talent at U18 levels, and that is now open and available to ALL teams to select talent in the draft
- Academy Zones, traditionally for non Vic states, even though now each club has its own zone.
- Salary Cap relief/Cola, again for periods of time, Non Vic teams at one time or another have been given advantages not afforded to Vic Teams

Now I'm a West Australian, and if there was a proper SOO match tomorrow, I would be in the Sandgropers corner in a heart beat, so this is not coming from your "typical Victorian"...
And I certainly appreciate and respect the fact that Non-Vic teams have to travel a hell of a lot more than Vic teams...

So the question, honestly is this, if each Non-Vic club knew all of these FACTS before they CHOSE to enter the competition, why is there all a sudden a cry of #VICBIAS

If it was soooo bad, why did your clubs still want to enter the competition?

The argument that there were certain things already in place when a club like West Coast joined, therefore don't complain, ignores the reality that unless a team from WA could join the VFL then the WAFL would get continually raided with its best players just getting picked off. It was essentially viewed by Victorian clubs as a feeder league and WA football followers were doomed to a very inferior product with most good players gone and any promising players snapped up after a handful of games.

So, the option to WA was take it or leave it and if you accept it will be $4 million dollars up front, thank you very much. SA chose to leave it for a couple of years but we're forced to follow suit or likewise see football in that state suffer.
 
Nov 10, 2013
23,830
37,134
The Valley near the Alley
AFL Club
Gold Coast
Other Teams
Hell no
There is no advantage outside of travelling During GF week from playing at the G.
You stupid people don't realize that there isn't a true home ground advantage on the day, the crowds split evenly with a huge number of corporates involved aswell which eliminates the umpiring bias the home team gets with crowd influence.

The only remaining 'advantange' is the ground dimensions. Perth stadium is 4m longer and 8m wider 😂😂
If you're players are too ******* stupid to work out don't kick it over the boundary line because it's 4m away on either side then they ain't making the GF anyway.
i havent read the whole thread, but just on this, both teams competing in the grand final should be forced to stay in hotels on the thursdy and friday nights before the grand final, no familiarity with the 'home bed' if it happens to be a melb based team playing. teams can get the bus together to and from hotel to events like parade and to the ground on the day etc.
 
Oct 3, 2007
16,084
17,344
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
West Perth
I must've missed the part where some else inserted the Billionaire with endless cash into this hypothetical. Apologises.

Based on the original hypothetical by RUNVS (as just a break away league financially supported by the stronger clubs) I don't think it'd be viable or possible for the 'Break way league' to be able to out spend compared to a 'AFL/VFL' because as I've said-- I'm not sure what income streams they'll receive over the established competition.

Without the big Vic clubs you would not have the income streams which is correct, but with them you would. No matter which hypothetical you choose big money has to be at play and I reckon the big Vic clubs would side where they see the best future for their own club and not with tradition or history.
As the decades go by players are going to demand more and more and they will have very little care which jumper they put on, money is going to become a huge issue for this league that an 18 team comp will not be able to work with. It is just time before players simply won't accept playing for less than they think they are worth. Something will have to give.
I think it's as sure as death and taxes that in the next 40 years or even much sooner there will only be 12-14 teams at most in the premier Australian rules footy comp.
 
Without the big Vic clubs you would not have the income streams which is correct, but with them you would. No matter which hypothetical you choose big money has to be at play and I reckon the big Vic clubs would side where they see the best future for their own club and not with tradition or history.

But I don't seem to understand (nor has it been well explained) the rationale or motivation for the "Big Vic Clubs" to leave this hypothetical "AFL/VFL" and move to this "Breakaway league". Any "Breakaway" competition wouldn't be able to use the tradition or history associated with their club--- effectively starting a new club in Melbourne with access to either of the major stadiums, the benefit of a media that will promote them or fans that will support them over the established league.

I think looking a bit at the history of the NRL/Super League War of the 1990's will demonstrate that any "Breakaway League" wouldn't be successful in Australia and just do more harm for the competition than benefit it in the long-term.
 
Oct 3, 2007
16,084
17,344
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
West Perth
But I don't seem to understand (nor has it been well explained) the rationale or motivation for the "Big Vic Clubs" to leave this hypothetical "AFL/VFL" and move to this "Breakaway league". Any "Breakaway" competition wouldn't be able to use the tradition or history associated with their club--- effectively starting a new club in Melbourne with access to either of the major stadiums, the benefit of a media that will promote them or fans that will support them over the established league.

I think looking a bit at the history of the NRL/Super League War of the 1990's will demonstrate that any "Breakaway League" wouldn't be successful in Australia and just do more harm for the competition than benefit it in the long-term.

Mate I have not given it a hell of a lot of thought, The rational I guess would be thats where all the best players will be becaudse this hypothetical billionaire keeps adding zero's to any money offer a player gets from the VFL/AFL. I do know money does anything it wants to do and always has. And no Footy club world wide in any sport these days won't follow where the money is.
Anyway i don't wish to get into a huge debate over this, my point was simply money does anything and that applies to any scenario.
 

Lsta062

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 15, 2014
21,589
41,458
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Chelsea, LA Lakers, Western United
The fact that the AFL just signed a 50 million year deal with the MCG to host the Grand Final seemingly without even consulting the teams or fans annoyed the crap out of me. Almost like they did not want the non-Victorian teams and fans to know about it ahead of time.
The non-Victorian teams knew about it. It is the fans that did not
 

Hank Heavenly

🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
Apr 10, 2013
6,510
16,624
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
East Fremantle
Good point...therefore if keeping the GF @ MCG then the other option is to move the tennant clubs around more during the season
ok... so lets explore that option... (if we accept the GF won't be moving)

The argument of Bias stems from Vic teams playing at their home venue more than their allotted home games... And we mainly talk about MCG tennants...

So using Richmond or Collingwood as the example.

These clubs host 10/11 games listed officially as home games, and say another 2 or 3 as away games, so anything from 12-14 games at the G.

If they get the right to host all their "home" games there, just like Optus stadium and Adelaide Oval tenants host theirs, it becomes a question of where these team play their away games....

Now, if the argument is to make sure these away games are NOT at the G, it raises some further issues as follows:

- Where do Richmond play Collingwood (or any combo if MCG tenant vs MCG tenant)? Remember, there still has to be a "home team" and we have already agreed each home team deserves the right to host their own home games. To move an "away" game from the G, also means you are moving someone elses home game right???

- Lets say we we want to go down that path, that means, all Richmonds home games would be against non MCG tennants, so all 8 "interstate" clubs will have to play the tigers on the MCG, thats 8 games, and then Marvel tennants at the G for the other 3, so we are left with Richmond playing all their home games against non G tennants, yet they havent played Collingwood, Carlton etc yet, so they would be away games... where does Collingwood host Richmond then, as Richmond aren't allowed to play at the G as an away game?

- Forgetting the away game issue on the above point, if Richmond host all 8 Interstate clubs at home, it will mean, by the abnormal fixture, that they would hardly travel interstate because they are forced to host those team for home games, then the whinge is that Richmond (or any other G tenant) never travel...?



The only real way for your suggestion to work, is for the AFL to build another Stadium, with a capacity of 80k or so, and force all MCG tennants to have two home grounds. Play 5 or 6 as home team at the G and the remainder home games at "Stadium New", and then be away team at the G for 5-6 games...
If the request is to "just use Marvel", reality is, the AFL are not going to move games Like the season opener, Anzac Day, Dreamtime, Queens birthday etc to Marvel and accept 30-50k fans not being able to turn up to watch, it would cost them too much $$$

So that is an option, but I can't see the AFL doing that given they moved away from Waverly as an alternative etc.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Back