Coach John Longmire - Part IV

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Tedeski said:
We were terrible tge otger night from the first bounce.
Mindset was wrong. JPK was brave to want to play but he was just no where near it, even with Naismith tapping it where ever he wanted to tap it. 20 points down before you know it & game over right there in a shortened match.
Same against the Bombers. Both games we should have won based on our efforts against the Roos where even players like Fox played to a greater level, one which is expected at senior level.
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And then we regrouped and we won the second half.

Other than Port Adelaide, every team has had these kinds of inconsistencies this season.
 
Punts said:
The list itself is more of a worry imo

It’s really imo only better than 2 others and players are not coming on , going backwards or just not good enough for senior footy

The best players that carry us are 1/2 years of Finishing and no one to replace
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Hard to get better when you become a recruiting ground for other clubs overnight. We would have one of, if not the worst list turnover of the last 5 years. Losing players every year while recruiting senior players that only perform reliably in the NEAFL.

I dont know how much sway this new statistical analyst in our recruiting department is but whatever he is doing which identifies Gray, Thurlow, Clarke etc as worthy recruits is not producing results.

They seem keen on him though from what I've read, I think Thurlow was recruited entirely from his stats analysis.
 

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scaryness said:
Hard to get better when you become a recruiting ground for other clubs overnight. We would have one of, if not the worst list turnover of the last 5 years. Losing players every year while recruiting senior players that only perform reliably in the NEAFL.

I dont know how much sway this new statistical analyst in our recruiting department is but whatever he is doing which identifies Gray, Thurlow, Clarke etc as worthy recruits is not producing results.

They seem keen on him though from what I've read, I think Thurlow was recruited entirely from his stats analysis.
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Only trade that makes sense so far is Brand.
 
The King! said:
slow starts are an issue this year, usually a quarter in 2020, a half on Thursdayis that gameplan? no coaching? not sure

longmire is now in a project phase and its pretty early in that project
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I do not think that is true. The Project is a couple of seasons old.
 
Clearly I am missing something.....

I wish some of you were delivering my performance reviews this year, I wouldnt need to make any excuses!!. Imo Horse needs to get better at coaching and game day management in the modern game. We will continue to spin our wheels if we are prepared to accept things and lower our expectations to what is being dished up (not from the players, from the box). There are things he just doesn't seem to move on, like when was the last time we made a loose in defense accountable? It appears to me Horse is a stubborn as a ....well...horse. He hangs on to what has worked in the past and is slow to move. I think he still calls for Reid to get down back at the end of each qtr until someone reminds him he isn't playing. It is frustrating seeing the same problems dealt with by using the same ineffective solutions game after game.

I simply think he can be better, particularly on game day.
 
kickthething said:
There are things he just doesn't seem to move on, like when was the last time we made a loose in defense accountable?
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As the commentators have pointed out a number of times over the last few weeks, we have basically never been playing a loose man behind the ball or any sort of zonal defence, we have been pretty consistently six backs on six forwards with six forwards up against six backs all year.

So... yeah, you are wrong.
 
kickthething said:
Clearly I am missing something.....

I wish some of you were delivering my performance reviews this year, I wouldnt need to make any excuses!!. Imo Horse needs to get better at coaching and game day management in the modern game.
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Okay, what specific examples do you have that give you that opinion?
 
Kummerspeck said:
Okay, what specific examples do you have that give you that opinion?
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Why don't you try to educate all us nuffies and use your own examples about the gameplan and explain why it works, instead of baiting users that are sharing their opinions with gotcha questions.
 
scaryness said:
Why don't you try to educate all us nuffies and use your own examples about the gameplan and explain why it works, instead of baiting users that are sharing their opinions with gotcha questions.
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Leaving aside I've given my thoughts on how we play, when I spam my opinion that we're doing amazingly and nothing is wrong based on vague conclusions I'll be sure to do it when someone asks to see my working. People are free to give their opinion, I'm free to ask why ask why they think that, they're free to ignore it.

Do you have a specific question about a statement I've actually made?
 
I think Horse would be a far better coach than he already is if he got rid of those ******* hack kicks out of the centre from our game. He has the control over it yet we see it week in, week out, year after year. I actually rate most of what he does but this feature of our team gives me the absolute shits and will be the single biggest obstacle to Horse ever achieving a flag again.
 
caesar88 said:
I think Horse would be a far better coach than he already is if he got rid of those ******* hack kicks out of the centre from our game. He has the control over it yet we see it week in, week out, year after year. I actually rate most of what he does but this feature of our team gives me the absolute shits and will be the single biggest obstacle to Horse ever achieving a flag again.
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It does seem like when the ball comes out of the centres it's a surprise to the player with the ball.
I think it comes back to not having confidence in winning the ruck and first contest. I can't help but think if we set up at rucks looking to break forward and run into space we'd get ripped apart.

Similar to quick playing on, using the corridor, taking quick options 40 metres out rather than holding up and waiting for a deep option, it's good when it's come off but it's been horrendous when the fitness and skills fail.
 
Kummerspeck said:
It does seem like when the ball comes out of the centres it's a surprise to the player with the ball.
I think it comes back to not having confidence in winning the ruck and first contest. I can't help but think if we set up at rucks looking to break forward and run into space we'd get ripped apart.

Similar to quick playing on, using the corridor, taking quick options 40 metres out rather than holding up and waiting for a deep option, it's good when it's come off but it's been horrendous when the fitness and skills fail.
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Setting up that way, sure. We don't have that luxury. But once we win possession, we tend to favour the blind hack kick forward in favour of using the Swan who is open on the outside and created space for themselves. It happened over and over and over and over last year, and is still happening too much this year (though improved slightly with the inclusions of guys like Florent, Rowbottom etc who have pretty good awareness.)

I understand the ruck situation has probably effected our mids mentality when they win the ball, and they are under pressure once they have possession because it hasn't been palmed straight to their bread basket. But I don't think it's unrealistic to expect these guys to just... do better?

If losing your main ruck has just been sprung on you mid-season after training with him all pre-season then I could understand you'd look rattled in there. But we've had two years for our mids to work out a dynamic around Naismith's absence, and we're about to have a third. So to me, having no decent ruck just isn't really an excuse anymore. They need to start being smarter and using each other as team mates better to overcome the lack of service they get from the ruck.
 

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IMO our declining results is primarily a reflection on the declining quality of our list and how our team has become less capable of executing the game plan across the ground.

Obviously there are intricacies in gameday tactics such as which specific matchups you try to get, where our mids position themselves at bounces and stoppages, when do we switch sides of the ground, when to move the ball quickly or hold it up, leading patterns of forwards etc. Maybe Longmire and the coaching box have a downfall in this area and aren't instructing our players to deliver the best results. The general feel I get from Longmire is that he's not the best game day coach or strategist, moreso man-manager is where his strengths are, but I don't have the time, resources or football acumen to analyse those factors so I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm talking about there.

I'm more referring to general patterns within games and seasons that are easier to observe.

The difference between our premiership contending team of let's say the 2012-2017 era has been that we have competent players in all areas of the ground and that allows us to win games in multiple different ways. For instance, during this time we could win games by:

1. Getting the ball to the outside where the likes of Hanners, McGlynn, Jetta, Jack, Lloyd, and Heeney can beat their opponents on the spread, run and carry and set our forward line up through quick ball movement.

2. If the oppo midfield are holding their own we can turn it into a hard contested slog where our inside mids like JPK, ROK back in the day, Parker, Mitchell, Hanners and Jack can crash in, win the hardball, grind them down and eventually over the course of 4 quarters we'll break them.

3. If the oppo midfield are winning more of the ball than us we can apply pressure to the ball carrier like crazy all over the ground and cause turnovers from rushed disposals and score off those turnovers.

4. If the oppo are winning the midfield battle and getting more inside 50s we have Grundy, Smith, Richards, Rampe, Mills and Aliir to intercept and absorb that pressure coming in and then we can rebound through Mal, McVeigh, Rampe, Shaw at different stages expose them on transition and slingshot our way to goal.

5. If 1-4 all fail and we're playing a bad game usually every second-week JPK and Buddy who are all-time greats will turn on beast mode and carry us over the line through individual brilliance, or at the very least keep us in the game for most of it.

When you have a team for whom there are numerous different paths to victory, they're going to win more games and hence be a contender. I don't think that model has really changed over the course of Longmire's tenure, maybe the order of priority in different season but the fundamental aims remain the same. Over time as our team has declined the options on the table on how we can win a game narrows.

Firstly, I noticed in 2018 our inside midfield capabilities significantly declined. We were playing the game a lot in our back half. Immediately in most games 1 and 2 off the table. We're relying more on the other team making mistakes to score, we need to start more of our attack from defence and Buddy/JPK to put in special efforts to bail us out of trouble. And that still got us enough wins for finals but the deficiencies were always going to get found out.

In 2019, the chickens start really coming home to roost where we're the worst clearance and contested ball team, we don't have reliable shut down defenders like Reg and Smith anymore, also not as great rebound, JPK and Bud are a year older and not as superhuman as they previously were.

The team is still capable of winning games when we can get it on our terms like the North and Adelaide games this year, win it, maintain possession and move it quickly to find our small forward line in space, but that happens a lot less consistently than previous year. The decline in talent of the list really means that if Plan A doesn't work, we don't have as many options available to win games.
 
Kennedy Parker said:
IMO our declining results is primarily a reflection on the declining quality of our list and how our team has become less capable of executing the game plan across the ground.

Obviously there are intricacies in gameday tactics such as which specific matchups you try to get, where our mids position themselves at bounces and stoppages, when do we switch sides of the ground, when to move the ball quickly or hold it up, leading patterns of forwards etc. Maybe Longmire and the coaching box have a downfall in this area and aren't instructing our players to deliver the best results. The general feel I get from Longmire is that he's not the best game day coach or strategist, moreso man-manager is where his strengths are, but I don't have the time, resources or football acumen to analyse those factors so I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm talking about there.

I'm more referring to general patterns within games and seasons that are easier to observe.

The difference between our premiership contending team of let's say the 2012-2017 era has been that we have competent players in all areas of the ground and that allows us to win games in multiple different ways. For instance, during this time we could win games by:

1. Getting the ball to the outside where the likes of Hanners, McGlynn, Jetta, Jack, Lloyd, and Heeney can beat their opponents on the spread, run and carry and set our forward line up through quick ball movement.

2. If the oppo midfield are holding their own we can turn it into a hard contested slog where our inside mids like JPK, ROK back in the day, Parker, Mitchell, Hanners and Jack can crash in, win the hardball, grind them down and eventually over the course of 4 quarters we'll break them.

3. If the oppo midfield are winning more of the ball than us we can apply pressure to the ball carrier like crazy all over the ground and cause turnovers from rushed disposals and score off those turnovers.

4. If the oppo are winning the midfield battle and getting more inside 50s we have Grundy, Smith, Richards, Rampe, Mills and Aliir to intercept and absorb that pressure coming in and then we can rebound through Mal, McVeigh, Rampe, Shaw at different stages expose them on the rebound and slingshot our way to goal.

5. If 1-4 all fail and we're playing a bad game usually every second-week JPK and Buddy who are all-time greats will turn on beast mode and carry us over the line through individual brilliance, or at the very least keep us in the game for most of it.

When you have a team for whom there are numerous different paths to victory, they're going to win more games and hence be a contender. I don't think that model has really changed over the course of Longmire's tenure, maybe the order of priority in different season but the fundamental aims remain the same. Over time as our team has declined the options on the table on how we can win a game narrows.

Firstly, I noticed in 2018 our inside midfield capabilities significantly declined. We were playing the game a lot in our back half. Immediately in most games 1 and 2 off the table. We're relying more on the other team making mistakes to score, we need to start more of our attack from defence and Buddy/JPK to put in special efforts to bail us out of trouble. And that still got us enough wins for finals but the deficiencies were always going to get found out.

In 2019, the chickens start really coming home to roost where we're the worst clearance and contested ball team, we don't have reliable shut down defenders like Reg and Smith anymore, also not as great rebound, JPK and Bud are a year older and not as superhuman as they previously were.

The team is still capable of winning games when we can get it on our terms like the North and Adelaide games this year, win it, maintain possession and move it quickly to find our small forward line in space, but that happens a lot less consistently than previous year. The decline in talent of the list really means that if Plan A doesn't work, we don't have as many options available to win games.
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Great post. I would argue you could also add the influx of youth as a primary cause of our decline. I posted this several months ago to illustrate the difference in the make-up of our team:

Between 2012 and 2015, when we were a team in it's prime and finishing top four every year, we had an average of 4 players with under 50 games per week. The most we had in that time was 9 (and that was in round 23, 2014, when we finished first, tanked the result and loaded up on youngsters).

Between 2016 and 2019, when we started a list turnover because of those cards I spoke of being dealt to us, we had an average of 8 players with under 50 games per week. The most we had in that time was 13, more than half our side filled with such inexperience.

So far this year we are averaging just under 8 players with under 50 games. I think when you have a greater spread of players who are experienced and can be relied on to perform a role consistently, that can also go a long way to improving the team. We don't have that atm. Too many players developing, which means they can't impact the game consistently, which means the whole team suffers, which means we struggle to get the game on our terms too often, which makes it hard for those developing players.

It's a potentially nasty cycle which is exactly why I've been an advocate for recruiting some mature players who don't have to be world-beaters, but just guys that can sustain performance for four quarters.
 
Kirkswan said:
Without intending offence, I think this is crap! Not once, anywhere at all since the whole Titch thing, have we heard that the players are unhappy with Horse. The only thing we do hear is how great he is, how supportive, how he's helped them, how much they've learned from him... They say he is direct, tells it how it is, is down to earth and is very, very up front...

I think that you (and all the similar posts) are putting words in the players mouths, that are simply not reflective of what is actually being said, but is reflective of what you think...
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Nowhere did I say these words came from the players....So telling me I’m making up stuff by making up stuff yourself is a piss poor argument...my post and my words are aimed directly at the decision makers at the swans, those who lead the club and who rushed lognires reappointment and iMO Over committed The club in time and $’s. So cry into your bib or make an argument...
 
I like Longmire, I am glad he is our coach. I am also not someone who think Mills can't be a perfectly good (or great) half back flanker.

But this quote from today really drives me up the wall.

He's a very good defender and he could be a very good midfielder – I'm sure of it – but when you're looking at the balance of the team … (you've) got to replace him with a player you know can do the same thing in that previous role

We are being absolutely slaughtered in the midfield every week, and have been for 3 years, it is depressing to think we are holding potentially good players out of the midfield because we think it might weaken our defence.
 
tombomb said:
I like Longmire, I am glad he is our coach. I am also not someone who think Mills can't be a perfectly good (or great) half back flanker.

But this quote from today really drives me up the wall.

He's a very good defender and he could be a very good midfielder – I'm sure of it – but when you're looking at the balance of the team … (you've) got to replace him with a player you know can do the same thing in that previous role

We are being absolutely slaughtered in the midfield every week, and have been for 3 years, it is depressing to think we are holding potentially good players out of the midfield because we think it might weaken our defence.
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Our defence will never be good if our midfield continues to be s**t. They open the defenders up to absolute carnage on a weekly basis.
 
scaryness said:
Hard to get better when you become a recruiting ground for other clubs overnight. We would have one of, if not the worst list turnover of the last 5 years. Losing players every year while recruiting senior players that only perform reliably in the NEAFL.

I dont know how much sway this new statistical analyst in our recruiting department is but whatever he is doing which identifies Gray, Thurlow, Clarke etc as worthy recruits is not producing results.

They seem keen on him though from what I've read, I think Thurlow was recruited entirely from his stats analysis.
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Taylor may come good if we are lucky.
 
Punts said:
I have full faith in Gardiner and Harley and what they have done to date
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Harley has been GM while we've had record memberships and had two shots at a flag and Gardiner's been at the club for a year and a bit.

What have they done wrong in your eyes?
 
Kummerspeck said:
Harley has been GM while we've had record memberships and had two shots at a flag and Gardiner's been at the club for a year and a bit.

What have they done wrong in your eyes?
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They sound too smart when they talk.
 
Last edited:
Harley was commentating in 2014 and wasn’t CEO in 16

Wether he has done a good job or not, he hasn’t been CEO for 2 Tilts at a flag , we haven’t played a final with him as CEO

But wether CEO performance is linked to finals is questionable
 
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