Opinion MODERATE ideas for a 'fairer' AFL without the hyperbole of VIC & non-VIC trolls. TROLLS FROM BOTH SIDES PLEASE KEEP OUT

[kranky al]

I think you've confused a ponzi scheme and a pyramid scheme, they are quite distinct.
Even so I don't see how the old vfl model fits a pyramid scheme either.

When you have all the teams borrowing money to try buy a gf but only one of them can win each year....



Ponzi vs: Pyramid Scheme: An Overview
Pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes have many similar characteristics based around the same concept: unsuspecting individuals get fooled by unscrupulous investors who promise them extraordinary returns in exchange for their money. However, in contrast to a regular investment, these types of schemes can offer consistent "profits" only as long as the number of investors continues to increase. Once the number tapers off, so does the money.


Ponzi and pyramid schemes are self-sustaining as long as cash outflows can be matched by monetary inflows. The basic differences arise in the type of products that schemers offer their clients and the structure of the two ploys, but both can be devastating if broken down.>>>

 

[Hallstrom]

When you have all the teams borrowing money to try buy a gf but only one of them can win each year....



Ponzi vs: Pyramid Scheme: An Overview
Pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes have many similar characteristics based around the same concept: unsuspecting individuals get fooled by unscrupulous investors who promise them extraordinary returns in exchange for their money. However, in contrast to a regular investment, these types of schemes can offer consistent "profits" only as long as the number of investors continues to increase. Once the number tapers off, so does the money.


Ponzi and pyramid schemes are self-sustaining as long as cash outflows can be matched by monetary inflows. The basic differences arise in the type of products that schemers offer their clients and the structure of the two ploys, but both can be devastating if broken down.>>>

Are you suggesting that investors just didn't realise that they all couldn't win every year? The investors in the VFL knew full well thier investment might not pay-off. As I said earlier still stupid, but entered into knowingly.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Im really lucky in that i have a very well resourced club that can use their wealth to overcome the disadvantage..

Tbh though - i think if wed lost 2018 that would have been it.

That'd be giving up a little easily Al, I've seen 12 granny's for two wins, don't see me chucking the towel in.

The question begs why did you bother in the first place? Seeing how p155ed off with it you are.

 

[kranky al]

Are you suggesting that investors just didn't realise that they all couldn't win every year? The investors in the VFL knew full well thier investment might not pay-off. As I said earlier still stupid, but entered into knowingly.

They went broke....

 

[Hallstrom]

They went broke....

So every investment that goes broke is a ponzi or pyramid scheme?
As I've said, stupid investments (going with the heart instead of the head), but not a ponzi or pyramid.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Missed the point.

i wont - but all these multicultural kids in sydney arent going to grow up following a league that pays lip service to them when mum and dad followed soccer all their lives and if their teams in a grand final - and the top team -it happens in their city and they get to be a part of a league that represents them as much as any other state.

So your moderate idea (point) is that multicultural kids are playing soccer more than other kids playing footy.

And how has that impacted the public interest in AF in Sydney no less? Who don't give two hoots about AF anyway?

Yeah the game is in danger eh. But yeah let's merge / fold clubs and lose truckloads of fans from the game.

 

[kranky al]

So your moderate idea (point) is that multicultural kids are playing soccer more than other kids playing footy.

And how has that impacted the public interest in AF in Sydney no less? Who don't give two hoots about AF anyway?

Yeah the game is in danger eh. But yeah let's merge / fold clubs and lose truckloads of fans from the game.

The afl has spent coin to get in there - so clearly they see a point

Trouble is its half hearted.

soccer isnt halfhearted about it but.

 

[kranky al]

So every investment that goes broke is a ponzi or pyramid scheme?
As I've said, stupid investments (going with the heart instead of the head), but not a ponzi or pyramid.

When all of the clubs are borrowing money to buy players but only one can win.... rendering the rest’s investment worthless...

 

[Carringbush2010]

The afl has spent coin to get in there - so clearly they see a point

Trouble is its half hearted.

soccer isnt halfhearted about it but.

Kranky you can't force the public to adopt the game, it doesn't work that way. Incentive and enticement is the only way, HQ have invested probably more into the northern states than any other area in history. Wouldn't say it's half hearted, just a real difficult nut to crack, it may never be cracked. Just a blunt reality.

I'm not across jnr gr participation rates in those states but if you visit the 3rd team in Sydney thread it's positive.

In any case, not the point. Soccer has never really ever been a threat to AF in this country and likely never will be - if you base it on public interest.

So I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

 

[kranky al]

Kranky you can't force the public to adopt the game, it doesn't work that way. Incentive and enticement is the only way, HQ have invested probably more into the northern states than any other area in history. Wouldn't say it's half hearted, just a real difficult nut to crack, it may never be cracked. Just a blunt reality.

I'm not across jnr gr participation rates in those states but if you visit the 3rd team in Sydney thread it's positive.

In any case, not the point. Soccer has never really ever been a threat to AF in this country and likely never will be - if you base it on public interest.

So I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Reckon you might have missed the bit where soccer now has more junior participation than afl or rl

 

[kranky al]

The mods merged this thread with mine

This demerges it

This thread can go back to the ops topic

The AFL should be brought down and replaced by a new governing body

The covid debacle is the last thrashings of a dying beast. the fact that they have mismanaged this season so badly and are dragging out the inevitable need for teams to leave victoria till the outbreak is contained when it was clear weeks ago is the icing on the cake...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Carringbush2010]

Reckon you might have missed the bit where soccer now has more junior participation than afl or rl

Reckon you might've missed the bit where that makes zero difference from a public interest point of view.

Where is your moderate idea?

 

[kranky al]

Reckon you might've missed the bit where that makes zero difference from a public interest point of view.

Where is your moderate idea?

Mate as i posted above im out of this thread for the reasons listed in post 1961

I dont have a moderate idea - im for tearing it all down and starting again.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Mate as i posted above im out of this thread for the reasons listed in post 1961

I dont have a moderate idea - im for tearing it all down and starting again.

But you're in the thread.

 

[The_Wookie]

They went broke....

You say that like the WAFL didnt also have to be bailed out, not to mention IPL (West Coast) needing to be bailed out early on. The mid to late 80s wasnt a great time for football leagues.

 

[kranky al]

You say that like the WAFL didnt also have to be bailed out, not to mention IPL (West Coast) needing to be bailed out early on. The mid to late 80s wasnt a great time for football leagues.

The wafl had lost crowds with the players and were surviving on the transfer payments from the vfl - the vfl crashed and the rest is history


<<<<
The mid-1980s were a time of great optimism in the West Australian capital.

The economy was ticking along and Alan Bond was bringing the America's Cup to town, four years after Australia's famous win at the Newport Yacht Club in the United States.

The international exposure was expected to put Perth on the map.

The tourists came and Dennis Conner's 12-metre yacht Stars & Stripes reclaimed the Auld Mug, but Perth got a new casino and Fremantle received a face lift as part of a big infrastructure spend.

Aussie football was broken
The wild west was humming, but the biggest game in town — Australian football — was at a crossroads.

The game was struggling around the country as well.

In the west, WAFL teams were selling players just to stay afloat, while in Melbourne the teams were crippled by the massive player transfer fees they were forced to pay to remain competitive.

The system was fundamentally broken.

The solution was to include a team from Perth and Brisbane to play in the Victorian Football League with the aim of it eventually becoming a national competition.

The Eagles weren't initially allowed to train at Subiaco Oval or any WAFL grounds.(Supplied: West Coast Eagles)
Indian Pacific Limited, a private company chaired by Richard Colless — who would become the AFL's longest serving chairman at Sydney — put in an application for a side called West Coast to join the VFL.

They needed to secure the votes of at least eight of the VFL clubs to gain admission to the league.

The agreement with VFL chief executive Ross Oakley was that West Coast would pay $400,000 a year over 10 years.

But on the night of the vote, Mr Oakley rang Mr Colless to say he couldn't get the eight votes, because some Victorian clubs who were fighting for survival wanted all the money up front.

It meant West Coast's bid was dead unless the they could come up with $4 million.

A club essentially set up to fail
Inaugural Eagles coach and prominent administrator Ron Alexander said a deal was made to secure Fitzroy's support.

"What was happening was, clubs like Footscray and Fitzroy were technically broke and my understanding is that Ross Oakley got Fitzroy's vote by agreeing to give them $600,000, which would keep them afloat for the next year," he said.

Ron Alexander says a deal was made with a struggling Fitzroy to get West Coast into the competition.(ABC News: Glyn Jones)
The final vote was pushed back until October 1986, but in the meantime the Victorian clubs took the opportunity to plunder the West Australian Football League ahead of the potential inclusion of West Coast in 1987.

Players like Nicky Winmar, Michael Christian and Craig Starcevich all found homes on the eastern seaboard before the new Perth-based club had a chance to recruit them.

A range of corporate investors and shareholders of Indian Pacific eventually came up with the money to guarantee admission.

But the conditions placed on the Eagles meant they were essentially set up to fail.

Political games and a toxic environment
It was just the beginning of the hostile reception the team received — and it wasn't just in Melbourne, but at home in WA too.

West Coast's relationship with the WAFL clubs was acrimonious at best, as Alexander explains.

"It is hard to describe the political nature and at times toxic nature of what happened," he said.

"There were many prominent members of the football world in Western Australia that didn't get a role at West Coast, and many of those people that didn't get a role worked actively against the club."

The Eagles have secured the second most flags in the post-VFL era, after Hawthorn.(AAP: Mal Fairclough)Cold showers, wet grounds and a hell of an existence
The Eagles weren't allowed to train at Subiaco Oval, where they played their home games, or at any WAFL grounds.

The Victorians didn't roll out the welcome mat either. Sprinklers were left on overnight before West Coast training sessions in Melbourne and cold showers in the changerooms were common.

West Coast was forced to pay for the Melbourne clubs' travel costs when they came to Perth. The draw was tough, on one occasion the Eagles played three times in six days on either side of the country, and the club's squad was restricted to 17 fewer players than other sides.

It was a hell of an existence and it had consequences.

After the 1987 season, and despite winning 11 of 22 games and almost making the finals, the club controversially sacked Alexander as coach, with the chief executive and chairman also let go.

After three seasons the Eagles had lost around $13 million, were broke and on life support.

Amid public calls in 1989 for the Eagles to be scrapped, the West Australian Football Commission assumed 75 per cent control of Indian Pacific. Brian Cook was appointed chief executive and Mick Malthouse was named coach.

Under Mick Malthouse, West Coast became the first team from outside of Victoria to win the premiership.(Supplied: West Coast Eagles)
It was the catalyst for rapid growth on and off the field.

From the brink of insolvency to a financial powerhouse
As the Eagles now prepare to defend their fourth premiership — the second-most flags after Hawthorn in the AFL era — they are closing in on a move to their new $60 million purpose-built facility at Lathlain Park, which will be one of the best facilities in the country.

In 30 years, West Coast has gone from the brink of insolvency to arguably the financial powerhouse of Australian sport.

Last year, financial analysts labelled West Coast the most profitable sports club in the country, and off the back of last year's premiership it's understood the Eagles' profit has increased again to around $7.5 million.

It's a story of resilience and it shows success can be built and sustained in a reasonably short period, even off the back of trying times.>>>

From a hell of an existence and near collapse to financial powerhouse

When the West Coast Eagles joined the Victorian Football League in the 1980s, they were essentially set up to fail — and soon the club was broke and on life support. How times have changed, writes Clint Thomas.

www.abc.net.au

 

[The_Wookie]

The wafl had lost crowds with the players and were surviving on the transfer payments from the vfl - the vfl crashed and the rest is history

The WAFL were in trouble before transfer fees were abolioshed - as early as 1983 and in 1984 handed over to a new board.

• 1983, May 2. – The WAFL requests immediate AID from the WA Goverment to meet a 1.9 million deficit that had come about due to the maintenance of league venues. The Government sets up a task force headed by Bill Mitchell to investigate footballs financial problems and long term needs. The Report would recommend ground rationalisation – down to four, including Subiaco and the WACA, as well as an independent commission. (Behind the Play pg 187)
• 1984, February 28. The WAFL board hands control of football in WA over to a newly formed WAFL board. In return the Government took over repayments on a 4 million loan used to finance the development of Subiaco Oval. (Behind the Play pg 190)
• 1988 – July 11. The VFL announces a reduction in transfer fees for interstate and country recruits. Minimum payments will now pay a maximum of $27,500 per player. Clearance fees were abolished.

 

[kranky al]

You say that like the WAFL didnt also have to be bailed out, not to mention IPL (West Coast) needing to be bailed out early on. The mid to late 80s wasnt a great time for football leagues.

The wafl had lost crowds with the players and were surviving on the transfer payments from the vfl - the vfl crashed and the rest is history


<<<<
The mid-1980s were a time of great optimism in the West Australian capital.

The economy was ticking along and Alan Bond was bringing the America's Cup to town, four years after Australia's famous win at the Newport Yacht Club in the United States.

The international exposure was expected to put Perth on the map.

The tourists came and Dennis Conner's 12-metre yacht Stars & Stripes reclaimed the Auld Mug, but Perth got a new casino and Fremantle received a face lift as part of a big infrastructure spend.

Aussie football was broken
The wild west was humming, but the biggest game in town — Australian football — was at a crossroads.

The game was struggling around the country as well.

In the west, WAFL teams were selling players just to stay afloat, while in Melbourne the teams were crippled by the massive player transfer fees they were forced to pay to remain competitive.

The system was fundamentally broken.

The solution was to include a team from Perth and Brisbane to play in the Victorian Football League with the aim of it eventually becoming a national competition.

The Eagles weren't initially allowed to train at Subiaco Oval or any WAFL grounds.(Supplied: West Coast Eagles)
Indian Pacific Limited, a private company chaired by Richard Colless — who would become the AFL's longest serving chairman at Sydney — put in an application for a side called West Coast to join the VFL.

They needed to secure the votes of at least eight of the VFL clubs to gain admission to the league.

The agreement with VFL chief executive Ross Oakley was that West Coast would pay $400,000 a year over 10 years.

But on the night of the vote, Mr Oakley rang Mr Colless to say he couldn't get the eight votes, because some Victorian clubs who were fighting for survival wanted all the money up front.

It meant West Coast's bid was dead unless the they could come up with $4 million.

A club essentially set up to fail
Inaugural Eagles coach and prominent administrator Ron Alexander said a deal was made to secure Fitzroy's support.

"What was happening was, clubs like Footscray and Fitzroy were technically broke and my understanding is that Ross Oakley got Fitzroy's vote by agreeing to give them $600,000, which would keep them afloat for the next year," he said.

Ron Alexander says a deal was made with a struggling Fitzroy to get West Coast into the competition.(ABC News: Glyn Jones)
The final vote was pushed back until October 1986, but in the meantime the Victorian clubs took the opportunity to plunder the West Australian Football League ahead of the potential inclusion of West Coast in 1987.

Players like Nicky Winmar, Michael Christian and Craig Starcevich all found homes on the eastern seaboard before the new Perth-based club had a chance to recruit them.

A range of corporate investors and shareholders of Indian Pacific eventually came up with the money to guarantee admission.

But the conditions placed on the Eagles meant they were essentially set up to fail.

Political games and a toxic environment
It was just the beginning of the hostile reception the team received — and it wasn't just in Melbourne, but at home in WA too.

West Coast's relationship with the WAFL clubs was acrimonious at best, as Alexander explains.

"It is hard to describe the political nature and at times toxic nature of what happened," he said.

"There were many prominent members of the football world in Western Australia that didn't get a role at West Coast, and many of those people that didn't get a role worked actively against the club."

The Eagles have secured the second most flags in the post-VFL era, after Hawthorn.(AAP: Mal Fairclough)Cold showers, wet grounds and a hell of an existence
The Eagles weren't allowed to train at Subiaco Oval, where they played their home games, or at any WAFL grounds.

The Victorians didn't roll out the welcome mat either. Sprinklers were left on overnight before West Coast training sessions in Melbourne and cold showers in the changerooms were common.

West Coast was forced to pay for the Melbourne clubs' travel costs when they came to Perth. The draw was tough, on one occasion the Eagles played three times in six days on either side of the country, and the club's squad was restricted to 17 fewer players than other sides.

It was a hell of an existence and it had consequences.

After the 1987 season, and despite winning 11 of 22 games and almost making the finals, the club controversially sacked Alexander as coach, with the chief executive and chairman also let go.

After three seasons the Eagles had lost around $13 million, were broke and on life support.

Amid public calls in 1989 for the Eagles to be scrapped, the West Australian Football Commission assumed 75 per cent control of Indian Pacific. Brian Cook was appointed chief executive and Mick Malthouse was named coach.

Under Mick Malthouse, West Coast became the first team from outside of Victoria to win the premiership.(Supplied: West Coast Eagles)
It was the catalyst for rapid growth on and off the field.

From the brink of insolvency to a financial powerhouse
As the Eagles now prepare to defend their fourth premiership — the second-most flags after Hawthorn in the AFL era — they are closing in on a move to their new $60 million purpose-built facility at Lathlain Park, which will be one of the best facilities in the country.

In 30 years, West Coast has gone from the brink of insolvency to arguably the financial powerhouse of Australian sport.

Last year, financial analysts labelled West Coast the most profitable sports club in the country, and off the back of last year's premiership it's understood the Eagles' profit has increased again to around $7.5 million.

It's a story of resilience and it shows success can be built and sustained in a reasonably short period, even off the back of trying times.>>>

The WAFL were in trouble before transfer fees were abolioshed - as early as 1983 and in 1984 handed over to a new board.

• 1983, May 2. – The WAFL requests immediate AID from the WA Goverment to meet a 1.9 million deficit that had come about due to the maintenance of league venues. The Government sets up a task force headed by Bill Mitchell to investigate footballs financial problems and long term needs. The Report would recommend ground rationalisation – down to four, including Subiaco and the WACA, as well as an independent commission. (Behind the Play pg 187)
• 1984, February 28. The WAFL board hands control of football in WA over to a newly formed WAFL board. In return the Government took over repayments on a 4 million loan used to finance the development of Subiaco Oval. (Behind the Play pg 190)
• 1988 – July 11. The VFL announces a reduction in transfer fees for interstate and country recruits. Minimum payments will now pay a maximum of $27,500 per player. Clearance fees were abolished.

It was a 20 year process.

 

[The_Wookie]

It was a 20 year process.

Then stop carrying on like the AFL is the VFL of 1986

 

[kranky al]

Then stop carrying on like the AFL is the VFL of 1986

A couple of years ago the afl signed a deal that keeps the grand final at the mcg till 205?

what did they get in return for this coupla billion minimum worth of product for australian football fans?

 

[The_Wookie]

A couple of years ago the afl signed a deal that keeps the grand final at the mcg till 205?

what did they get in return for this coupla billion minimum worth of product for australian football fans?

Well plenty that delivers funds to the AFL that would have otherwise been spent by the AFL and not propping up 6 of the 8 non victorian sides as well as the ones it props up inside. This is not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars in stadium and grassroots funding in victoria, that means the AFL should have more money to spend elsewhere.

Just because West Coast got a great stadium deal doesnt mean anyone else had access to one for the last 20 years.

 

[kranky al]

Well plenty that delivers funds to the AFL that would have otherwise been spent by the AFL and not propping up 6 of the 8 non victorian sides as well as the ones it props up inside.

Just because West Coast got a great stadium deal doesnt mean anyone else had access to one for the last 20 years.

What the “a” fl got was a bunch of stadium upgrades for victorian fans that governments all over the country regularly do anyway with no grand final in sight

they also lied and said interstate clubs will get access to train on the mcg nd they would do something with flights to make sure we werent gouged.

neither of which happened.

Pretty sure sydney, west coast, freo, adelaide pay their own way.

looking at the average afl disbursement back that up.

 

[The_Wookie]

What the “a” fl got was a bunch of stadium upgrades for victorian fans that governments all over the country regularly do anyway with no grand final in sight

they also lied and said interstate clubs will get access to train on the mcg nd they would do something with flights to make sure we werent gouged.

neither of which happened.

Its also stadiums that the AFL would have had to fund upgrades to for womens sport if the Victorian Government didnt.

Ive yet to see any other state government commit hundreds of millions to local venue upgrades for womens sport.

And apparently everyone, particularly West Coast, lied when they misunderstood the V in VFL in the 1980s that they all desperately tried to sign up for. Let alone didnt understand the geographic implications that came with most of the teams being located in Victoria, or all of the leagues traditions being Victorian ones.

 

[kranky al]

Its also stadiums that the AFL would have had to fund upgrades to for womens sport if the Victorian Government didnt.

Ive yet to see any other state government commit hundreds of millions to local venue upgrades for womens sport.

And apparently everyone, particularly West Coast, lied when they misunderstood the V in VFL in the 1980s that they all desperately tried to sign up for. Let alone didnt understand the geographic implications that came with most of the teams being located in Victoria, or all of the leagues traditions being Victorian ones.

Yeah we had this weird idea that it was going to become a national competition.

whereas you victorians knew that was never on the cards.

Thus the thread...

 

[kranky al]

The_Wookie

this is the wrong thread for this

i didnt realise you had posted here i thought it was in the other thread