Preview Round 11 Carlton vs West Coast @ Optus Stadium Sunday 9th August 3.35pm AEST

[BlueBlood15]

I can’t speak for everyone else, but I agree with you re the players understanding a potential TDK/Moore swap this week. And I don’t think there is a single poster on here who can legitimately say that Moore deserves the spot ahead of TDK - either building for the future or playing for the now.
But I believe the match committee has made their intentions well known, by keeping Fish/LOB/TDK out of the team.
I for one hope and pray that this hardline stance is changed, starting as soon as this week. Not sure it will though.

Agree with you OTF.

Interestingly, the MC has only made 2-3 forced changes (changes not due to injury) this season. Lang dropped after Rd 2, Philp dropped after Rd 4 (although he played Rd 5 when Fisher was a late withdrawal) and Philp dropped after Rd 5 (after coming in as a late change).

We’ve had some very good performances (Dogs and Geelong games come to mind) but we’ve also had some very average performances (Hawks, Melbourne, St Kilda performances come to mind). So this number seems very low. I would suggest (without evidence to back this up) that it may be the lowest in the competition.

I understand the current push for stability to build continuity but we also need to expose some of the guys playing 2s who have been biding their time. Suspect this starts to occur when we move into 4-5 breaks in the next couple of weeks.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

He is also an opportunist and in the wet goals are premium.

When fisher was banished to the forward line last year he went at less than a goal every other game. He's no forward. The only reason people think he is a small forward is because he's small and fast.

 

[murphster]

I saw JR basically dry hump his opponent about 5 seconds before the ball got to the contest and nothing was called.

I cannot agree more re the umpires strip.
From a distance it looks like yellow top with black shorts. I know it’s more of a light green with charcoal shorts, but why can’t they wear the light blue they have previously worn, or - heaven forbid - WHITE?!?

I also saw Lynch was back to his old bully tricks again and his coach endorses it, pick on someone your own size Lynch you weak prick, you won’t even face Andrews but your more than happy to beat up on Answerth who’s half your size or slam Witherdons head into the ground when he’s lying face down, this is something he did routinely at Gold Coast and I hated him for it then, I hate bully’s and I hope someone puts him flat on his back one day to teach him a lesson, Hardwick is a disgrace for praising him for it and it’s shameful on both there parts.

 

[ETET]

9 games, 3 with under 10 touches, none with more than 15, averaging 2 clangers a game and 2.3 turnovers. Only averaging 3.3 contested possessions and 1.9 tackles. Statistically nearly every stat is at a career low (by a long way).

Hard to say the criticism is unjustified.

Goals?

 

[KnightsBlue]

Bit like the geelong game this one.... we have no right or seemingly "hope" to win this in the west against the eagles on their turf.. everyone will right us off... but i have a feeling we can do it again.. we go alright against the eagles... hawks have the wood over us, much like the tigers over brisbane.. we might be up for a good show. Bring it on eagles

 

[KnightsBlue]

Goals?

More than our forwards cunners, gibbons and on par with gov. Preety sure 8 so far

 

[myblueroan]

Laughable how some people think Moore being rewarded for VFL form somehow translates to keeping his spot ahead of TDK this week because TDK "hasn't earned it".

Newsflash: Moore is now horribly OUT of form, and is not going to be persisted with out of homage to scratch match form from a month ago.

The players have a fair idea of what the pecking order is. Giving Moore any sort of go at AFL level is already recognition of his hard work, so that sends a good message to the players.

The players will also understand when the younger, more talented, more position-relevant player in TDK is picked this week.

Hope so.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

The point is valid to a degree, if we look at St Kilda for example they had a fairly one paced midfield with stodgy midfield but the addition of a high quality wingman like Hill (after getting rid of Newnes) transforms them and he makes the other players around him better, creates more space with his hard running and allows them to accentuate their positives attributes.

Newnes doesn't do that for us.

Ironically I think brad hill has been the worst performed of all the st kilda recruits this year.

Honestly what's happening with Newnes around here is people have already decided that he's a dud, and then just inventing reasons to arrive at that conclusion.

Yes, players running off the ball creates space and gives the ball carrier options and can open up the game plan. To suggest that newnes not doing that was the reason the midfield got destroyed vs hawthorn is an absolute reach to put it mildly.

I'd be willing to bet he'd be in our top 3-4 players each weak for ground covered. He's meant to be the defensive winger, the fact that he gets goals nearly every game is virtue of his hard running.

 

[murphster]

Shai Bolton is going alright with better straight line speed. Samo has great lateral movement and has got to be a couple of inches taller than Shai.

It doesn't have to be 'named on-ball' in the middle. It can be wing or HHF and roaming in during play. I want him right on the fringes of the contest, side stepping someone then delivering a nice little 30m kick inside 50 hitting a forward.

This is the problem with both Samo and Fish they have great lateral movement/speed but not great straight line speed that you need to eat up ground, Cunners has this even Harry has this but unfortunately for us not many others do, that are currently playing seniors anyway.

 

[murphster]

You're kidding, right? Fish can't snap a goal to save his life - the most likely result is that he misses everything. Has to have time/room to straighten up. Fish plays up the ground or he doesn't play, simple as that.

Out: Moore, Cunners
IN: Gov, Honey/Owies

Feel for Moore a bit, thought he was actually looking much better in the first quarter against the Hawks. The our midfield went to water and the supply turned to sh*t. Still, Harry/Levi/Gov is the better mix. Cunners injured...again - hopefully only minor, but an opportunity for another small forward to stake a claim and make it hard for him to get back in. We've got two smalls playing well in the scratch matches, so the time is right to give one a go.

I'd also give some serious though to LOB for Willo or Murph on the grounds of management. Might require a bit of magnet shuffling though:

Plowman, Jones, Doc
Simmo, Weiters, SPS
Newnes, Curnow, Walsh
Pittonet, Cripps, Setterfield
Honey/Owies, McKay, Martin
Betts, Casboult, McGovern
I/C: Kennedy, Gibbons, LOB, Murph/Willo

Spot on BB, Fish has no forward ability compared to the guys that should be replacing Cunners namely Honey or Owies I would even pick Philp ahead of Fish as a small forward.

Honey is the one that needs to come in though just has great attributes and already has an AFL ready body, can also have small bursts on the ball with his break away speed, I will be very surprised if Honey isn’t the one to replace Cunners.

 

[murphster]

For me...

Gov for Moore..easy

Newnes for Fish...more run and carry/speed/skill

Cunners for Honey.....The kid deserves a crack,can score!!!

Betts on thin ice with Kennedy ....both will get conditions to suit and need to impact !


as Jack hopefully back next week, with Dow , Marchy, TDK and L.OB all in the mix soon.

Geez I tell you what though Setters needs to stand up this week, absolutely went missing last week as soon as the going got tough probably more so than anyone, will want to show he is not a downhill skier against a very tough West Coast midfield.

 

[Own The Future]

Agree with you OTF.

Interestingly, the MC has only made 2-3 forced changes (changes not due to injury) this season. Lang dropped after Rd 2, Philp dropped after Rd 4 (although he played Rd 5 when Fisher was a late withdrawal) and Philp dropped after Rd 5 (after coming in as a late change).

We’ve had some very good performances (Dogs and Geelong games come to mind) but we’ve also had some very average performances (Hawks, Melbourne, St Kilda performances come to mind). So this number seems very low. I would suggest (without evidence to back this up) that it may be the lowest in the competition.

I understand the current push for stability to build continuity but we also need to expose some of the guys playing 2s who have been biding their time. Suspect this starts to occur when we move into 4-5 breaks in the next couple of weeks.

It seems the MC are pushing the following:
- bigger bodies
- cohesion
- reward for effort

As has been mentioned on here a while back, I hope the reluctance to drop established players is not due to a concern it would shatter the player’s confidence, or be controversial due to their stature/history with the club (Murph/Simmo) or that they were brought over from another club (Gov/Newnes). I’m not one for stunt omissions - as Bevo at the Dogs seems to do - but when it benefits the 22 I am all for it, no matter who the player is. No one should be promised a spot, from the captain/s down. You don’t want players fearful of making a mistake incase they’re immediately dropped, but prolonged dips in form need to be noted and changes made.
The debate over hard/soft decisions - both on team selection and list management - will rage on, but I’m hopeful it is not only forced changes (ie. injuries) that are made this week. It needs to be known that the performance last Friday will not be tolerated.

 

[Macca43]

Ironically I think brad hill has been the worst performed of all the st kilda recruits this year.

Honestly what's happening with Newnes around here is people have already decided that he's a dud, and then just inventing reasons to arrive at that conclusion.

Yes, players running off the ball creates space and gives the ball carrier options and can open up the game plan. To suggest that newnes not doing that was the reason the midfield got destroyed vs hawthorn is an absolute reach to put it mildly.

I'd be willing to bet he'd be in our top 3-4 players each weak for ground covered. He's meant to be the defensive winger, the fact that he gets goals nearly every game is virtue of his hard running.

Did I suggest that is was THE reason we got destroyed? Nope. Was it part of the reason, for sure.

But if you look at what I said "The point is valid to a degree" The "point" being was can one player make another player better or, conversely, an one player not doing their role negatively impact anothers ability to do theirs) and "to a degree" being at least partially it is hardly a controversial statement.

"He's meant to be the defensive winger" All the talk when he came here was he wanted to stop being used defensively. Given this and the fact that no one is able to get to the games is it possible that those defending Newnes have simply decided he isn't a dud and using the "defensive wing" role as justification for the worst stats of this career in almost every department?

 

[TerryWallet]

I don't get the hate for Newnes either.

Haven't seen any hate for Newnes. What i have seen is recognition of the bleeding obvious, that despite our wish that he was a ripper recruit, he is still the bog average player that he was at StKilda until he was let go in their quest to improve.

He's not terrible, he's not good, he's just bog average. That aint changing.

I'm just sitting here watching and waiting until we move past bog average. I think we've got the younger players to do that, but time will tell. Need a few injured players to become available. Need a few other players to step up their standards apparently. Need the coaches/selectors to show some adventure and not die in their shell.

Sometimes i get a bit impatient. Sometimes i'm very patient. By dog we're coming from a long way back. We are still a process in the making.

 

[murphster]

Finger pointing at Newnes? I don't have him in what I see to be our best side either, but that's not the point.

To have someone replaced, the replacement has to be better and if that replacement comes from within the current start squad, the replacement for the replacement has to be better as well......so yes.....sum of the parts.

I do wonder how he CFC see O'Brien. Is he in the future plans or maybe just a little on the outer, given perceived deficiencies?


EDIT - Newnes will be in this team when it's named tomorrow.

I think it is Obi4s perceived lack of a contested ball game that is keeping him out which I think he has actually improved over the pre season, also has thickened up through the torso this year, whether enough is in the eye of the beholder but I would certainly like to see him given a chance in the next block of games as I think he adds something we need desperately in run and delivery, I just hope he has improved his positioning and can start getting a lot more of the ball especially winning his own ball as this would probably tip the scales in his favour going forward.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

MrsEddieBetts - care to make a comment on this being such a big John Goodman fan?

John Goodman is good in everything. The end.

PS Elmer_Judd watch Inside Llewyn Davis for more John Goodman goodness.

 

[Macca43]

I think it is Obi4s perceived lack of a contested ball game that is keeping him out which I think he has actually improved over the pre season, also has thickened up through the torso this year, whether enough is in the eye of the beholder but I would certainly like to see him given a chance in the next block of games as I think he adds something we need desperately in run and delivery, I just hope he has improved his positioning and can start getting a lot more of the ball especially winning his own ball as this would probably tip the scales in his favour going forward.

Newnes 3.3 contested possessions a game isn't a high bar to bet.

 

[murphster]

Homage

To have Moore in and being rucked would be......so wrong.
Even if TDK's game doesn't reach any great heights, it doesn't matter and it shouldn't make for a difficult decision to replace Moore with TDK.

Not a difficult decision at all in fact you would almost think it is a given that TDK would replace Moore if Gov doesn’t come up, just as Honey for Cunners is a no brainer imo, let’s hope and pray the MC see it the same cause if we go in with Moore as second ruck we are cooked before we start.

 

[HARKER]

I think it is Obi4s perceived lack of a contested ball game that is keeping him out which I think he has actually improved over the pre season, also has thickened up through the torso this year, whether enough is in the eye of the beholder but I would certainly like to see him given a chance in the next block of games as I think he adds something we need desperately in run and delivery, I just hope he has improved his positioning and can start getting a lot more of the ball especially winning his own ball as this would probably tip the scales in his favour going forward.

That was likely identified last year and Newnes taken on to fill this gap.
None of us see Newnes as being the answer amongst this current group, but maybe O'Brien simply doesn't represent the better value, for now.
It's easy to want a player out, bit someone has to come in that will be better...and hoping doesn't count.

We still have some way to go before we know what our best team will look like and having the likes of CCurnow, Marchbank, Dow, Fisher, Kreuzer, Kemp, Newman etc largely unavailable this year, hasn't served us well.

 

[Jimmae]

Yep, pretty much.

My own opinion - Fisher is nothing special around goal, particularly if he's not facing goal. He also has no ability or confidence to kick on his right. There are, of course, instances where he has snapped goals, but from my viewing, there have also been many instances where his attempted snaps have missed the target by a loooong way. Casboult has snapped a few goals in his time, but it's not his strength either - difference is that he's there to clunk marks and line up for set shots. If Fisher plays as a forward pocket, his strengths are hampered and his weaknesses exacerbated.

Ergo, play him up the field, where he can be a wider receiver for the contested boys, have some space to work with, and deliver to our big targets, or don't play him. Same goes for Dow, same goes for Walsh, same goes for SPS. We want someone to play in a forward pocket, make it someone who can more reliably dribble or snap a goal from a tough angle - ie. Gibbons, Martin, Betts, Murphy, Lang, Cuningham - and hopefully Owies, Honey and Phillips at some point.

When fisher was banished to the forward line last year he went at less than a goal every other game. He's no forward. The only reason people think he is a small forward is because he's small and fast.

High half-forward would be the role, ie. the assist guy adding an extra number in the midfield.

 

[murphster]

9 games, 3 with under 10 touches, none with more than 15, averaging 2 clangers a game and 2.3 turnovers. Only averaging 3.3 contested possessions and 1.9 tackles. Statistically nearly every stat is at a career low (by a long way).

Hard to say the criticism is unjustified.

To be fair Macca those stats are pretty much par for the course for someone playing wing in our side, if we want more from our wings we need to change our game style and there roles in it, pull up the stats from anyone else playing that role in the last 18 months and they will be very similar imo. Not saying you are wrong just think you are taking aim at the wrong target.

 

[Arr0w]

Goals?

Yeap and outside of our defenders has the best disposal efficiency by foot of players that have played every game

 

[Macca43]

That was likely identified last year and Newnes taken on to fill this gap.
None of us see Newnes as being the answer amongst this current group, but maybe O'Brien simply doesn't represent the better value, for now.
It's easy to want a player out, bit someone has to come in that will be better...and hoping doesn't count.

We still have some way to go before we know what our best team will look like and having the likes of CCurnow, Marchbank, Dow, Fisher, Kreuzer, Kemp, Newman etc largely unavailable this year, hasn't served us well.

How do we know they won't be better if we don't try? 14-16 a side scratch matches (plus only having 2 of them in the past week) can only tell you so much, at some point you have to take a punt.

 

[murphster]

Newnes 3.3 contested possessions a game isn't a high bar to bet.

I agree but again Macca our wings are told to keep there width and not get sucked into the stoppage so not a lot of area to gather contested possessions, I just think it has more to do with the role than the player, as for Lachie I said perceived lack and I think he has really worked hard to rectify this and would love to see him given a go as I think he would do well but given the role I’m not sure how much better his numbers would be.

 

[Macca43]

To be fair Macca those stats are pretty much par for the course for someone playing wing in our side, if we want more from our wings we need to change our game style and there roles in it, pull up the stats from anyone else playing that role in the last 18 months and they will be very similar imo. Not saying you are wrong just think you are taking aim at the wrong target.

O'brien as a 19 yo Under Teague last year went 15, 17, 18, 9,11,16,9,8,18,10 - 10 game, 3 times under 10 possessions but 4 times over 15 (plus a 15) and the other stats I quoted are pretty similar to Newnes. Sure our game plan seems to make it hard for the wingmen but I don't think you could say Newnes is doing the best possible job.