2020 Trade & List Management discussion

[Crow till I die]

Unless you’re actually giving names to these solid B grade players you’re trading in, it’s hard to comment on whether it’s worthwhile trading out MCrouch.

I don’t believe you’ll find many B grade mids willing to come to Adelaide.

I believe you’ll end up like Brisbane in 2013 and 14. Trading in a heap of C graders (who are on the verge of being delisted and looking for a chance to stay in the system), to protect the kids, but end up playing the kids anyway because they’re better than the guys you traded in, and you’ll get smashed for a couple of years.

Anyway, that’s what happened with us.

maybe so. I did mention a tom sparrow / Jye Caldwell andd there might be one or 2 mids north of NSW that are not getting a regular game that might like a chance to play?

 

[1970crow]

Listening to Roo this morning left me more concerned about the future than I was before.

He was adamant the rebuild was a planned and clear decision. He thought the senior players were 'out of form' at the start of the season and this along with playing so many kids is why we are 0-11. He then revealed that we are basically maxed out in our salary cap - saying that they are hoping to have some more money available under the cap at end of next year to start approaching players.

So basically, he completely misread the Senior players. He planned on keeping certain players, only to not see the cliff approaching them. He has also overseen list management decisions that have led to a maxed out salary cap for a team that is historically awful and currently sits at 0-11. That requires a very special level of incompetence.

Meanwhile he also said that they needed to improve the coaching panel. Well duh. Did he not look at what was there and see how utterly cr@p it was before the season? Everyone else did.

This, on top of his appointment of Burton and Hass, and his blind faith in both, show that he has no right at all to believe he can see the club through this period. None. There is no evidence in his history that he has the capability to make decisions that actually help.

Can he just leave already??

I don't know why anyone would think that we wouldn't be maxed out.

 

[kulak]

He then revealed that we are basically maxed out in our salary cap - saying that they are hoping to have some more money available under the cap at end of next year to start approaching players.

As I have been saying. Weird that so many have been in denial about this.

Several players on first team wages not playing first team for us. Some of those we will still be paying next year. Of course we are maxed!

Can we please stop giving out bad contracts. This starts with Brad, even if we don’t get the free agency compensation we would wish for.

 

[MRB37]

The only "good" news is these guys don't go past 2021, so it'll leave us room to make critical re-signings.

2021 is the final year for Gibbs, Smith, Talia, Kelly, M.Crouch, Seedsman, Laird, Walker and Lynch. That should leave us with space to pay up for guys like Doedee and maybe have some cash to find a new player or two as well.

 

[1970crow]

The other day Roo said our salary cap is full.

How is that possible? No seriously, how is that actually possible? It has to be a lie.

Every year each club has to pay at least 95% of the salary cap, so a cap being "full" in a given year is not a meaningful thing to say.

We only have 4 significant contracts beyond 2021: Sloane, Jones, Brown and Milera with a couple of other role players (eg McHenry, Sholl) signed to 2022.

That alone means we have a ridiculous amount of salary cap space. Unless we are paying Luke Brown $1.8 million a season of course. We could easily hand out 5 year contracts right now to basically anyone, because we have very few long term deals in play

Right now we're full to the end of next year when Gibbs, Tex and Talia come off contract. You'd be talking $2.2m right there. Throw in Sloane and those guys are taking up nearly 30% of the full level cap. We extended nearing and post GF as if we were a top side that needed to keep the band together. In reality, 2017 was no better than 2016 except for earning 2 home finals instead of 1 and winning 1 extra. Those cap decisions don't get resolved until 2022 and I'd presume that's about when contributing to JJ would cease as well. Of course we're full, we were never going to be anything different. Made a GF, it's Dom and raises for everyone.

 

[1970crow]

And replace him with who?
A speculative late first round pick? One that has maybe a 25% chance as being as good as him. Who is maybe a 5% chance of being an AA or B&F? And who's going to take the heat in the midfield while the younger players are getting smashed week after week?
You over estimate greatly the ability to replace talent in the draft.
Did we replace Lyons with a player as good?
Did we replace Danger?
What about Charlie Cameron?

Seriously, if we followed all these stupid trade ideas we would spend the next 10 years out of the finals.

OK, we won't trade anyone with value then. Good idea Neil.

 

[wimpy]

2020 Off season

Trade
Matt Crouch - to Geelong, pick 14

Free Agent
Brad Crouch - pick 2
Rory Atkins - end of 2nd round

Delist/Retire
David Mackay
Kyle Hartigan
Riley Knight
Myles Poholke
Ayce Taylor r
Kieran Strachan r
Ben Crocker r
Patrick Wilson r

Pay Out - Retire - Trade?
Bryce Gibbs (maybe goes somewhere else for a year)
Tex Walker (retire)

Re-sign - one year
Ben Keays
Elliott Himmelberg
Jordan Gallucci
Tyson Stengle

9 off main list, 4 off rookie. List reductions?

Probably clears about $3m in cap room, even with the re-signings and payouts.

Leaves us with 1, 2, 12, 14, 20 and 30 plus late picks, before trades.

Probably have our eye on Hately, O'Halloran, Sparrow, Graham, CCJ, Dunstan, Valente plus who knows who else.

Hately, Graham, Dunstan and Valente are plodders, do we need any more of this type. CC-J would be interesting, just haven't seen enough at AFL Level. I've been through the list of 104 SA boys playing AFL not very many would be gettable and some you just would not want. Possibly Will Hayward but he's a bit hot and cold.

 

[Scorpus]

Right now we're full to the end of next year when Gibbs, Tex and Talia come off contract. You'd be talking $2.2m right there. Throw in Sloane and those guys are taking up nearly 30% of the full level cap. We extended nearing and post GF as if we were a top side that needed to keep the band together. In reality, 2017 was no better than 2016 except for earning 2 home finals instead of 1 and winning 1 extra. Those cap decisions don't get resolved until 2022 and I'd presume that's about when contributing to JJ would cease as well. Of course we're full, we were never going to be anything different. Made a GF, it's Dom and raises for everyone.

The whole point of saying we're "full" on cap space is that it implies we have a limit on signing players. This is just completely incorrect.

Sure, we are full up in 2020 and 2021, paying the maximum amount (as every single team in the competition would be doing, because it's stupid not to and also an AFL requirement).

The point is we have very few contracts beyond 2021. There is nothing stopping us at all from signing anyone, saying we're "full" (up to 2021) is just a cop out for bad retention.

The reason for this is that, lets say we have a player demanding we re-sign them beyond 2020 on a 5 year, expensive contract. If we are "full", we won't be able to do that. But that's wrong. Only one of those five years is impacted by us being full in 2021. We can back end that deal with ease because there are so few players on long term deals. The fact we are full in 2021 is almost irrelevant.

The line has been pulled out to justify why so many players have left. "Oh we had to get rid of them, no money left". It's bullshit. There is plenty of room for management. We got rid of the players because they sucked, or they didn't want to be here. Not because our cap is full as far as the eye can see

 

[Bearded Clam]

After his AA year I'd guess he'd have been worth 5ish maybe. 3 extra years on the clock and backwards, I'm thinking 15ish is middle ground.

No thanks... would rather just hold onto him for another year.. give him a massive preseason see if he can get back some of his 2017 form, see how he goes without Brad in the same team.. see if he steps up.

We will be bottom 3 again next year.. if he does get some of that 17 form back, attracts a few suitors and leaves as a free agent we could end up with better than pick 15 as FA compo..

 

[briztoon]

maybe so. I did mention a tom sparrow / Jye Caldwell andd there might be one or 2 mids north of NSW that are not getting a regular game that might like a chance to play?

I just can’t see Caldwell going to Adelaide. Much more likely Essendon or St Kilda. Would be guaranteed starting time at either club, and for the same money.

And it’s like the SEN guys must read BigFooty for content ideas.

 

[Crow till I die]

I just can’t see Caldwell going to Adelaide. Much more likely Essendon or St Kilda. Would be guaranteed starting time at either club, and for the same money.

And it’s like the SEN guys must read BigFooty for content ideas.

View attachment 933483

that was a bit of a side issue though - it does not have to be caldwell , it could be a like type player that is looking for more opportunity because his current club is stocked with mids. It was more the pathway the club could take as a possible option

 

[Mutineer]

that was a bit of a side issue though - it does not have to be caldwell , it could be a like type player that is looking for more opportunity because his current club is stocked with mids. It was more the pathway the club could take as a possible option

Tom Sparrow....going to be interesting to see if he holds his spot for the rest of the year...

 

[Bearded Clam]

As I have been saying. Weird that so many have been in denial about this.

Several players on first team wages not playing first team for us. Some of those we will still be paying next year. Of course we are maxed!

Can we please stop giving out bad contracts. This starts with Brad, even if we don’t get the free agency compensation we would wish for.

What are you suggesting?

if brad’s manager only receives offers of around 550-650k a year for him and that probably doesnt get us band 1 we should just let him go anyway and take a compo pick in the 20’s for him?.. * me..

because if you are.. that is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard..

brad crouch *in stays unless he gets an offer that gets us band 1. The club and brad/brads manager would all be on the same page with this and his manager would be conveying this to any clubs showing interest..

all of brads comments in regards to his potential taking up of FA point to this being the case.. hes happy to either stay or go, the club is happy for him to either stay or go... but hes only going if the coin is worth it for him and enough that the club gets band 1.

all this talk of “salary cap maxed” is stupid as Scorpus has pointed out.

if brad only gets offers of 550-650k a year.. thats essentially * all to pay for what he brings. we pay him and he stays.

other clubs that want him will have to find an extra 100-200k or they can * right off.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

"Maxed out in our salary cap"

Roo...?

Even after not getting involved in bidding wars for Cameron, Lever, McGovern plus off-loading Greenwood and Keath last season and only bringing in one player of note in the last 3 years (Gibbs) and not making finals for the last two years we're near the ceiling?

I suppose we are still paying for part of Betts' and Jenkins' salaries

I wonder if 'part' is significantly in excess of 50%?

What on earth do we have our money tied up in?

 

[Mutineer]

I just can’t see Caldwell going to Adelaide. Much more likely Essendon or St Kilda. Would be guaranteed starting time at either club, and for the same money.

And it’s like the SEN guys must read BigFooty for content ideas.

View attachment 933483

Caldwell hails from the Bendigo District he's not a Melbourne Metro mummy's boy....a lot of his best mates are from the Vic Country team he played most of his footy with or against all through his junior footy so he might even look at Brisbane with Tom Berry one of those. You honestly have no bloody clue where he would be prepared to go to further his football career......My guess would be GWS wouldn't be in a hurry to move him on just yet either so likely give him another 2 year contract. Zac Williams is likely on the move so that will free up cap space.

 

[adelaidecrows]

Last time I checked we are winless, the bulk of our youngsters ate showing nothing and Rob simply isn't getting it done. So instead of making an unintelligent response how about you educate me on why I'm wrong... Or you can't do that and just make snide comments about things you disagree with. Statistically everything falls on the side of my argument. Prove me wrong.

I feel dumber for having read this post.

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[adelaidecrows]

Statistically I'm right. Prove me wrong.

Wow... I didn’t know you could fit so many bad hot takes in a single post

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[forlols]

What would Zac Williams cost to bring in as a midfielder?

 

[Betts are off]

Statistically I'm right. Prove me wrong.

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

With hot takes like that, why would anyone bother. You're coming from too far back to save

 

[adelaidecrows]

So you got nothing. Explains alot.

With hot takes like that, why would anyone bother. You're coming from too far back to save

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Cleric]

OK, we won't trade anyone with value then. Good idea Neil.

You trade out when the player wants to leave and you cant keep him, or you get overs for him like Port did with Wingard.
You dont trade out one of your better players to a pot shot in the draft, because chances are you wont get the same quality. Like history has shown us recently.
People here were all for trading out Laird until last night.
I would rather have Crouch than a random last first rounders like Gooch.

Tell me who you know is going to be a better player than Matt at the back end of the first round.
I know exactly what Matt gives. He is an AA.and B&F. Good luck finding that in the draft with a random pick.
Same with Laird.

 

[Mutineer]

Last time I checked we are winless, the bulk of our youngsters ate showing nothing and Rob simply isn't getting it done. So instead of making an unintelligent response how about you educate me on why I'm wrong... Or you can't do that and just make snide comments about things you disagree with. Statistically everything falls on the side of my argument. Prove me wrong.

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

ROB's not getting it done? You're taking the piss yeah?

He's been massive around the game all year and much to my delight the one area that's been his weakness the centre circle ball ups has improved greatly the last 2 weeks against quality opponents, I wasn't convinced his game against Max Gawn wasn't a one off but he backed it up again this week with a superb effort in the middle against Brodie Grundy. Take your blinkers off.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

What would Zac Williams cost to bring in as a midfielder?

$3.5m on a 5 year contract.

 

[MRB37]

"Maxed out in our salary cap"

Roo...?

Even after not getting involved in bidding wars for Cameron, Lever, McGovern plus off-loading Greenwood and Keath last season and only bringing in one player of note in the last 3 years (Gibbs) and not making finals for the last two years we're near the ceiling?

I suppose we are still paying for part of Betts' and Jenkins' salaries

I wonder if 'part' is significantly in excess of 50%?

What on earth do we have our money tied up in?

We overpay the older players to make up for not paying them for when they're younger.

That works when everyone follows the system, but it's not how it works anymore. There will always be a buyer ready to pay up for a younger player. It'll also impact how you can recruit. I've said before people will wonder how Port can get names to come to them and we cant? Probably because we go "Hey, you haven't proven anything yet, so here's $200K and maybe if you work out 2-3 years down the line we can talk about it", whereas Port would go "Hey, you're a young player and we really believe in you, so here's $400K because we know you'll earn it".

It's the same way we lost Lever. Hey, you haven't earnt it yet, so you can't be near what Daniel Talia makes, so here's $350K while other clubs are coming in with over twice the amount. It's not a matter of can we afford to pay players, but how we pay players. If you're a lifer then you're on a good wicket until the end, rather than working on a sliding scale that goes up and then down.

 

[1970crow]

You trade out when the player wants to leave and you cant keep him, or you get overs for him like Port did with Wingard.
You dont trade out one of your better players to a pot shot in the draft, because chances are you wont get the same quality. Like history has shown us recently.
People here were all for trading out Laird until last night.
I would rather have Crouch than a random last first rounders like Gooch.

Tell me who you know is going to be a better player than Matt at the back end of the first round.
I know exactly what Matt gives. He is an AA.and B&F. Good luck finding that in the draft with a random pick.
Same with Laird.

My sentence " No problems trading out matt if he wants to go "
Eventually you write "You trade out when the player wants to leave and you cant keep him"

Not sure why you were so up in arms, we're in agreement. If Matt want's to go, then we trade him, it's pretty simple. Sure, we can force him to stay until his contract is up the year after. Is that your strategy? Genius if so.