Autopsy Round 17, 2020: St.Kilda v West Coast

[bird_man]

i guess we wont ever know ... im content with Ratten and happy with his first season but i was very strongly in the Harvey camp as coach and i feel he would have been a great coach for us ...

Not sure how you know Harvey would be a good coach. There might be a reason that the other 17 clubs haven't given him the job as well.

You also said after 6 games you didn't rate Justin Longmuire and he looks to be settling into his role nicely.

 

[plugger66]

according to Robert Harvey his pitch to both the saints and the Crows included that he has a line of assistants ready to come with him headed by Lenny Hayes ... Harves mentioned it mutiple times at our function with him, i dont see any reason why he would lie about that so maybe Lenny would have left if the job offer was there

Well someone is telling a fib. Either Lenny or harvs or it’s a misunderstanding

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Point 1. I am disgusted but the blood letting and melting that happened after this match. To accuse players of not trying or picking out individual players is just disgraceful behaviour and you are all so brave behind a keyboard hang your heads and take a good hard look at yourself.

Usual suspects Kent and Hind and to an extent Long between them did not get 10 touches for a game. Not good enough. We need to replace them in the line up with players with a better and consistent output.

 

[D2D3]

We don’t cop it here now when we lose to a Victorian side because we can’t see anyone. Having said that all my what’s app groups were having a good old chuckle at the result. Not at me thought. I learnt as a saints supporter you just shut your mouth. Some of my other mates haven’t learnt though and they cop

My mates (Richmond, Geelong and Collingwood supporters mostly) seem to rate our season higher than I do. They probably expected us to be bottom 4 again though

 

[plugger66]

He did it as a group. That’s apparently different

 

[saintbill]

If I see Clarke outside the Center square again I’ll spew up... He’s a midfielder playing HB for a team that has no midfield.. WTF.. All in all a very disappointing night.. We had it then just dropped it, dug a hole and buried it.

Agree. It is time to just put our best players through the midfield. A midfield rotation of Clarke, Gresham, Steele, Jones and even Coffield has potential long term. Put Billings and Hill on the wings.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

He did it as a group. That’s apparently different

Ohhh I see he literally meant individual!

 

[StickyMick]

The eternal optimist in me says we've exceeded preseason expectations but we've since lifted the bar on earlier season form so those kind of performances are inexcusable. Our inability to finish teams off when we've got late game momentum has been truly disappointing and it was on show again last night. Carlisle simply had to be selected to help combat West Coasts talls.

With that said, we have a game next week with finals on the line. Irrespective of our form I'd like to see us in a final, if for nothing else than experience. Would do more harm than good to the psychees of the players to miss from what was an almost unassailable position. We need selection without bias and we need a line in the sand moment like GWS have done with Coniglio this week by dumping him. The players have proven they're capable this year (yeah we are still a couple of great players off contending), we've seen that, but the lack of ruthless attitude and mental fortitude is deeply concerning and we won't be able to make the next jump unless something changes. That something, I'm not quite sure, but it's clearly missing, especially late in games and in key moments when we either need to push on or turn momentum back.

 

[70s sainter]

Went as expected for me. I never understood the confidence going in.

We haven’t been playing well... and we’re not well coached.

I was very pro ratts... now?... not so much.

He’s a good talker... says all the right things... but I’m seriously doubting if he’s the man for the job.

If we miss finals, this year is a huge fail. Yes some players have developed... big deal.. so they should.

He basically started this year with a new team and one pre season under his belt . They don’t train during the week , rather just manage the players in separate groups so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt this year.
But it does look like he’s been out coached a lot lately though .
The teams never been the same since we got towelled up by Geelong.
Two wins against ess and hawks shows a team that is bottom 8

 

[plugger66]

Ohhh I see he literally meant individual!

Yep. It would be like calling you a poor poster but if I also included a few others then it’s fine. So last night for example I can’t say Kent was shocking even though he was but I can say the whole side were shocking even though some weren’t. It’s a numbers game.

 

[BigMonty]

Touche.
It was the resultant tone and language that was used referring to a particular player rather than stating a fact.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Not sure how you know Harvey would be a good coach. There might be a reason that the other 17 clubs haven't given him the job as well.

You also said after 6 games you didn't rate Justin Longmuire and he looks to be settling into his role nicely.

hence i said the word "feel" my direct quote " and i feel he would have been a great coach for us ..."

as for Longmuire i still dont rate him as a coach .. yes his team has won a few games ... but so did Mark Neeld coached teams, so did Richo coached teams, so did Bolton coached teams, so did Watters coached teams ..... winning a few games doesnt suddenly make you a superstar coach ... Longmuire has improved from when he first started and he may very well improve more and become a good coach but from where im sitting right now if i had the choice of any coach in the comp right now to coach the saints he would only be in front of Worsfold

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Well someone is telling a fib. Either Lenny or harvs or it’s a misunderstanding

possibly miss understanding depending on when you spoke to Lenny and i spoke to Harves ... when you spoke to him he may have had zero interest in leaving NSW .. when i spoke to Harves he may have been all in to join Harves if he got the job ... neither of us could be wrong or right

 

[bennymc7]

Good summary. I don't think King is the player we thought he might be- IMO at the moment looking more like Tom Hickey playing as a permanent forward. I thought Paddy showed more potential in comparison, but sadly we know injury cut him down. Hopefully a couple of seasons will see his body mature and become a better player.

Lol

 

[gringo2011]

But if we kicked 4 goals extra a week we would be clearly on top of the ladder. As good as king maybe in future this side is not a top of the ladder side. We have far to many issues for one player to fix.

Read my original post. I said we need about 4 quality mids as well. Clark might be one but we could then push Billings and Gresham closer to goal or use them like Robbie Grey/De Goey. King becoming elite would make a huge difference to how easy we are to match up on.

Richmond didn't look like a top of the ladder side either. They went and got Prestia and were a revelation. I remember in 2017 I suggested that they'd make finals on here after they missed the year before and had people thinking I was an idiot.

To me we are a long way off but not as far away as we have ben for a long time. Probably one to two years off winning a final but at least some of the pieces are in place.

Trout and Pelican had the reverse Midas touch, free of them we are starting a process again. We need some superstar level players but maybe this time a few are already in our side. Our list still looks bottom 6 on paper but things can start to move quickly at this point.

 

[plugger66]

possibly miss understanding depending on when you spoke to Lenny and i spoke to Harves ... when you spoke to him he may have had zero interest in leaving NSW .. when i spoke to Harves he may have been all in to join Harves if he got the job ... neither of us could be wrong or right

I think we are both right. Well maybe not right but both telling the truth. I’d love to know what Lenny is going to do next year.

 

[plugger66]

Read my original post. I said we need about 4 quality mids as well. Clark might be one but we could then push Billings and Gresham closer to goal or use them like Robbie Grey/De Goey. King becoming elite would make a huge difference to how easy we are to match up on.

Richmond didn't look like a top of the ladder side either. They went and got Prestia and were a revelation. I remember in 2017 I suggested that they'd make finals on here after they missed the year before and had people thinking I was an idiot.

To me we are a long way off but not as far away as we have ben for a long time. Probably one to two years off winning a final but at least some of the pieces are in place.

Trout and Pelican had the reverse Midas touch, free of them we are starting a process again. We need some superstar level players but maybe this time a few are already in our side. Our list still looks bottom 6 on paper but things can start to move quickly at this point.

I just think the point is we aren’t going to get an extra 4 goals a game unless we got about 5 champions. If we had an extra 4 goals a game this year we would 200 points clear of the side with the most points this year. That is just about impossible. We actually only need a goal extra a game to be on top of the ladder. We need to remember 4 goals these days is about 7 ten years ago. And if we do make it this year I wouldn’t rule out winning a final as early as this year. I would rule out a top 4 spot until we get another goal a game.

 

[PoppedCorn]

You've got every right to pot the club same as I do to say it's embarrassing.

Play on

Exactly

 

[Ricmel]

Carlisle has always been average as a permanent forward. I’d put Marshall or Battle in full time.

I am not saying he is going to kick a bag. But no way an opposition is going to just let him roam. They have to put take him seriously and put a big guy on him. It takes all the focus off King and spreads opposition defence. Right now they just all sit on and around King.

How long did we think the "bomb it to King and pick up goals from crumbs out the back" was going to work. We were lucky to get 10 rounds out of it.

 

[Ricmel]

We are currently 6th on the ladder. At worst, after this weekend we will be 7th - with 1 round remaining. Let that sink in.

The year should end with a solid pass. But let's not kid ourselves - we are as far off the pace of the top 4 as are Roos, GC, Dees, Swans. It is a big gap in quality and we shouldn't be thinking that improvement is going to be linear. We have some serious problems with our list.

 

[bird_man]

Overall the season has still being positive given where we were. We have the building blocks for a decent side. We are 1-2 stars short.

We have to move on some of the senior blokes. Geary should retire, and we should look to trade Ross. The Hanners trade is the one that really stings. How we could give him 5 years on big money, it truly beggars belief. To call it reckless would be an understatement. No other club would have gone close to giving him anything more than 3 years.

It makes it seriously hard to challenge when one of your highest paid players still has 3 years left and they are unlikely to play more than a handful of games for the next 3 years. What concerns me greatly, is that despite the lack of star power we still don't have that much cap room. The Hill and Hanners trades will act as a real handbreak for years to come.

We have Finnis and Lethlean to thank for that. Finnis has been an unmitigated disaster. Blows my mind he has not come under more scrutiny. The Hanners trade completely reeks of self interest on Lethean's part, but it was still allowed to go through no problem. This is after giving Richo and Trout free reign to destroy the clubs chances of rebuilding for years.

Time for him to move on.

Hannebery was given 4 years with a trigger to a 5th.

Hard to think he'll get the trigger.

We also have up the pick we got for Hickey from memory so it's really not hurting us that badly.

 

[plugger66]

The year should end with a solid pass. But let's not kid ourselves - we are as far off the pace of the top 4 as are Roos, GC, Dees, Swans. It is a big gap in quality and we shouldn't be thinking that improvement is going to be linear. We have some serious problems with our list.

Less than last year and next year should be less than this year. Surely we all knew we had problems with our list. We are in a good position going forward especially if Clark and bytel become permanent mids. Backs look good. Forwards look good. Mids look ordinary this year.

 

[BrutThough]

The year should end with a solid pass. But let's not kid ourselves - we are as far off the pace of the top 4 as are Roos, GC, Dees, Swans. It is a big gap in quality and we shouldn't be thinking that improvement is going to be linear. We have some serious problems with our list.

Looking at the top 5 teams - since there is a stand out top 5 this year

We beat Port and Richmond comfortably.
Smashed by Geelong
And had close losses against Brisbane and West Coast.

Out list isn't perfect and there is a lot places we need to improve but lets not kid ourselves that we have been the equivalent of a bottom 4 team either.

 

[70s sainter]

Handling these one at a time -

Two of the Eagles' goals in the last qtr were a direct result of Geary blindly bombing the ball out of defence and straight to Nic Nat. The Captain is meant to be calm and composed and keep his head about him under pressure. Jaz has been a stalwart for us but he almost directly handed them the ascension half way through that last qtr.

People have been saying it for weeks, last night was a highlight reel for why he just is not skilled enough to play as a higher level. If he wasn't the captain he would be out.

Carlisle not playing was a mistake. I'm stunned that the media didn't question this in the post match presser.

It's not that any of their KPFs took us apart, it's that the natural games of Coffield, Wilkie and Long had to be stunted to allow them to match up on Darling, Allen and Waterman. At no point were any of them able to free wheel out of the backline to help us create overlap run and drive the ball forward through the middle.

This meant that our initial forward entries came almost exclusively from stoppage work. When we were fortunate enough to get the ball forward we did a very good job of locking it in but just could not put a score on the board. Which leads to...

Max King is not a park mark monster. Why do we persist with dumping the ball to the 'hot spot' only for Max to get smashed by 2-3 blokes? His best work is on the lead and into space. Put the ball to an area he can run into and no defender in the comp is going to stop him. But nah, he's tall and he can jump so just hoof it.

Our recent recruitment has been fine but we are still carrying alot of dead wood from the Richo era. I think Ratts has well and truly over achieved with the talent that we have but in order to get to the next level we need to trim the fat.

Carlisle - Will probably be traded out.
Savage - Depth I guess?
Ross - If he's not effective defensively then I'm not sure he's worth a spot over someone like Dunstan.
Dunstan - I would play him but is he in Ratts plans?
Lonie - Showing something as a high half forward but if another team wants him...
Geary - Done. Should walk away now.
Roberton - Mystery man. Probably retires.
Austin - Delist
Abbott - Delist
Webster - Is he fit? Probably looks for a trade.
Phillips - Get the feeling he could be good in 2-3 years with 50+ games but will we want to carry him in the 22 while he develops?
McKenzie - Delist
Clavarino - Rave reviews from some, poor feedback from others. Can a team pushing for finals debut a CHB?
Joyce - Delist
Langlands - Where is he at?
Marsh - Gone

We can't run 4 small forwards either.

Lonie, Butler, Kent and Hind is not a mix that can get the job done. It's why Im still so keen for us to get in the ear of Papley if he still wants to move back to Vic. He and Butler as the pockets, Lonie and Gresh up the field.

We are a work in progress. The frustration is in not being able to take the next step while we have 3-4 guys who, realistically, shouldn't be getting a game right now.

Obviously Papley would be a massive get and suit our game plan . Dunno about dunstan being a first 22 player though. Would probably show where we’re at more than anything.
So for me we need a gun mid ( even an aging one ) while bytel develops. A small forward and a Carlisle replacement.

 

[gringo2011]

Here's what stinks to me about last night's game.
Xavier O'Neill, Brayden Ainsworth, Josh Rotham, Jackson Nelson, Hamish Brayshaw
WTF even are these people, and who knew they were on a sporting list?
And so all we needed was for Dean Kent, Ben Long, Nick Hind, Jack Lonie, Ben Paton (just half-arsedly choosing our bottom 5 here, leaving out the C and VC)
to win comprehensively over that who's who of nobodies and we'd be a long way towards winning, regardless of how good their top 5 were.
Kent got two handpasses for the game! Long got one kick, Hind 4 kicks. WTF were they doing out there?
Everyone saying Bytel's not ready e.t.c I couldn't give a damn. He'd get more possessions than the 3 of those guys combined and he'd learn a few things along the way.
As for Carlisle, has the club come out and stated that he's out for family-related reasons? If not, why the hell not? He's not a friggin Russian election candidate, just tell us. If he wasn't picked for football reasons against that Eagles forward line, it's a big bloody black mark against the coach and his team.

Speaking of black marks. If you've got the team advantage overall, and you don't start all that well, what's the best strategy. Stick your best tagger (Steele) on their best player (Kelly), make it a hard tag and tell the other blokes in the middle to beat their opponents if they want to play next week. I know Steele was near Kelly a bit later in the game, but not near enough and not early enough, he ripped a new Rsehole in us last night.

One more thing about Jake, he's the only bloke other than Lonie who's got a bit of mongrel in him. We're timid as mice out there, and it sucks balls.

In: Jake, Bytel and anyone willing to flatten Toby Greene
Out: Any player who didn't look sufficiently disgusted in their own performance last night and doesn't burn the track up this week

The difference is that they are a well set side who can just keep drafting kids and playing them in their seconds to develop and then pull one in to replace another in their system.

We have had to step out of a few drafts to fill holes and replace players who weren't up to standard. We were and are running a deficit in draft picks due to past mistakes. They are a top 4 side we are in a pool of sides that sit off the pack and realistically our ladder position is probably 8th to 15 territory. We are improving and it's largely youth lead so actually pretty positive.

I can remember playing Adelaide in 2011 and absolutely smashing them. We bullied their kids and made them look idiotic. They grew up and never lost a match again against us until this year. They bullied us back in that time and loved hurting us. We are starting a climb but aren't there yet. They are more like that finals hardened old Saints side.