Preview Changes vs ST KILDA. Elimination final preview (GABBA- Sat 3rd October). Happy now??

[Dogs Rule]

Nope, 3/4 of that is spot on.

I reckon if we wound back the clock to 2016 we would find similar sentiments on this board before the West Coast match. Poor loss to Freo, underperforming, doubts...not saying it’ll happen this time, just interesting.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

I reckon if we wound back the clock to 2016 we would find similar sentiments on this board before the West Coast match. Poor loss to Freo, underperforming, doubts...not saying it’ll happen this time, just interesting.

There are some massive differences between the 2016 side and this side. Mainly in experience and leadership but a few other areas too.

In 2016 we had a side that at their best could beat any other side in it - including when they were playing at their best... GWS a perfect example of this.

This year, we are a few steps behind that - or the comp is a few steps ahead. At our best, I think there are still a few sides that are better than us if they play well. We still COULD beat them if they are off, but I'm not convinced we are good enough yet to do that to a side like Richmond.

I think a few here have been pretty harsh on us. We aren't to the level of Port, Geelong, Brisbane, Richmond and West Coast just yet. We could beat a few of them if they aren't at their best or missing a few, but not consistently or if we are a little off.

6-10th is a fair reflection of where the list is at - so 7th is fair. With some more experience I'd hope to be closer to a top 4 side in 2021.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

There are some massive differences between the 2016 side and this side. Mainly in experience and leadership but a few other areas too.

In 2016 we had a side that at their best could beat any other side in it - including when they were playing at their best... GWS a perfect example of this.

This year, we are a few steps behind that - or the comp is a few steps ahead. At our best, I think there are still a few sides that are better than us if they play well. We still COULD beat them if they are off, but I'm not convinced we are good enough yet to do that to a side like Richmond.

I think a few here have been pretty harsh on us. We aren't to the level of Port, Geelong, Brisbane, Richmond and West Coast just yet. We could beat a few of them if they aren't at their best or missing a few, but not consistently or if we are a little off.

6-10th is a fair reflection of where the list is at - so 7th is fair. With some more experience I'd hope to be closer to a top 4 side in 2021.

Agree this is not a 2016 team. The role players were Fletcher and Biggs but both did their job and our bottom 6 we much better in 2016, we more experienced, a harder team and a better ruck combination. Still think we can beat the saints.

 

[ScottyDogg]

I reckon if we wound back the clock to 2016 we would find similar sentiments on this board before the West Coast match. Poor loss to Freo, underperforming, doubts...not saying it’ll happen this time, just interesting.

Don’t forget who we had out for the Freo game in 2016. Macrae, Liberatore, Wood, Daulhaus, Stringer and Roughead. Even then I think we still won 3 of the last 5 in that year.

We no longer have personnel excuses. It’s about being hungry and tough for four quarters.

I really hope we are, because there is no doubt the Saints will be.

 

[ScottyDogg]

There are some massive differences between the 2016 side and this side. Mainly in experience and leadership but a few other areas too.

In 2016 we had a side that at their best could beat any other side in it - including when they were playing at their best... GWS a perfect example of this.

This year, we are a few steps behind that - or the comp is a few steps ahead. At our best, I think there are still a few sides that are better than us if they play well. We still COULD beat them if they are off, but I'm not convinced we are good enough yet to do that to a side like Richmond.

I think a few here have been pretty harsh on us. We aren't to the level of Port, Geelong, Brisbane, Richmond and West Coast just yet. We could beat a few of them if they aren't at their best or missing a few, but not consistently or if we are a little off.

6-10th is a fair reflection of where the list is at - so 7th is fair. With some more experience I'd hope to be closer to a top 4 side in 2021.

Is it possible that we are as good as those sides and just not performing? Hear me out.

Here is the evidence:
2019 vs 2020

List improvements since 2019

English has gone to a totally different level since 2019. Libba is back and elite. Our defensive stocks are greatly improved with Williams and Keath and Caleb’s season way better than 2019. We have more speed with Vandemeer, Smith has taken big steps as has Wallis. The only real drop offs have been Dale and Lloyd.

On field performances last year before these list improvements:

We didn’t just beat Richmond on an off day but decimated them same with GWS. We beat Geelong on a day when they played well. We took it right up to Collingwood in round 4 at the G, beat Brisbane and then nearly did it again at the Gabba with Charlie putting on a show. We took down Port in Port in the pouring rain.

You say we are not as good as some of the top sides this year but the evidence shows unequivocally that we were last year. And since then we have become a much better team in terms of our players development.

So either we are significantly underperforming, being coached poorly or these other sides have improved even way more than we have.

I think it’s the first two and am tired of people saying that we just aren’t that good. We are.

 

[Merlins Revenge]

My brother gave me this poster after the magic that was 2016. He has been struggling a lot since then, both mentally and physically. Every day is a new fight.

His tenacity and desire to get better epitomises the Bulldog spirit. This is been a horrible year for so many, but if 2016 has taught me anything, it’s that miracles do happen.

I believe in my brother, and the doggies. We will all come our snarling next week, next year, and forevermore. Bulldogs through and through!

 

[CarnTheScray]

Is it possible that we are as good as those sides and just not performing? Hear me out.

Here is the evidence:
2019 vs 2020

List improvements since 2019

English has gone to a totally different level since 2019. Libba is back and elite. Our defensive stocks are greatly improved with Williams and Keath and Caleb’s season way better than 2019. We have more speed with Vandemeer, Smith has taken big steps as has Wallis. The only real drop offs have been Dale and Lloyd.

On field performances last year before these list improvements:

We didn’t just beat Richmond on an off day but decimated them same with GWS. We beat Geelong on a day when they played well. We took it right up to Collingwood in round 4 at the G, beat Brisbane and then nearly did it again at the Gabba with Charlie putting on a show. We took down Port in Port in the pouring rain.

You say we are not as good as some of the top sides this year but the evidence shows unequivocally that we were last year. And since then we have become a much better team in terms of our players development.

So either we are significantly underperforming, being coached poorly or these other sides have improved even way more than we have.

I think it’s the first two and am tired of people saying that we just aren’t that good. We are.

That's the reason I get disappointed with some of our performances, because I know what we are capable of.

 

[Libba39]

Billy Gowers clearly B.O.G in the scratch match.

If he comes in we'll have a holy melt-worthy trinity of maligned "never-play-again" players in the team in Billy, Roarke and Gardner.

In Bev We Trust

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Is it possible that we are as good as those sides and just not performing? Hear me out.

Here is the evidence:
2019 vs 2020

List improvements since 2019

English has gone to a totally different level since 2019. Libba is back and elite. Our defensive stocks are greatly improved with Williams and Keath and Caleb’s season way better than 2019. We have more speed with Vandemeer, Smith has taken big steps as has Wallis. The only real drop offs have been Dale and Lloyd.

On field performances last year before these list improvements:

We didn’t just beat Richmond on an off day but decimated them same with GWS. We beat Geelong on a day when they played well. We took it right up to Collingwood in round 4 at the G, beat Brisbane and then nearly did it again at the Gabba with Charlie putting on a show. We took down Port in Port in the pouring rain.

You say we are not as good as some of the top sides this year but the evidence shows unequivocally that we were last year. And since then we have become a much better team in terms of our players development.

So either we are significantly underperforming, being coached poorly or these other sides have improved even way more than we have.

I think it’s the first two and am tired of people saying that we just aren’t that good. We are.

Disagree completely. As strongly as I could possibly disagree with something. There is always fluctuations with young teams and when you add new players - especially key defenders.
It's pretty simplistic to think there isn't progress just because you're not seeing a rise up the ladder - especially in a crazy mixed up season where we have a new captain who had many matches without other onfield leaders around him.

I know many disagree with me here, I think mainly because it's just the norm to be angry, but this team is not underperforming (yes we have had games below our best, but I think it is expected for a side at our progression point). Bev is not coaching poorly (seriously, this guy is one hell of a coach.) Others have improved, but more in line with expectations- Port maybe a little more than anticipated. The Lions, Cats, Tigers and Eagles at full tilt are in a much better list position than us for 2020 - I cant see an argument against that.

 

[Golden_6]

The scary thing about Gowers is that If Wallis didn’t get up, he would almost be a certainly to be picked by Bev. Wallis will get up though.

 

[Yojimbo]

The scary thing about Gowers is that If Wallis didn’t get up, he would almost be a certainly to be picked by Bev. Wallis will get up though.

Wallis and Gowers have both won the goal kicking award in recent years, now that is scary as the goals are meant to kick themselves.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I think you have to reward good scratch match form, so Gowers is a certainty for mine.

 

[Yojimbo]

Disagree completely. As strongly as I could possibly disagree with something. There is always fluctuations with young teams and when you add new players - especially key defenders.
It's pretty simplistic to think there isn't progress just because you're not seeing a rise up the ladder - especially in a crazy mixed up season where we have a new captain who had many matches without other onfield leaders around him.

I know many disagree with me here, I think mainly because it's just the norm to be angry, but this team is not underperforming (yes we have had games below our best, but I think it is expected for a side at our progression point). Bev is not coaching poorly (seriously, this guy is one hell of a coach.) Others have improved, but more in line with expectations- Port maybe a little more than anticipated. The Lions, Cats, Tigers and Eagles at full tilt are in a much better list position than us for 2020 - I cant see an argument against that.

Done my exhaustive end of season review already Hard Ball Get and it is exhaustive will wait until we finish before discussing.

 

[Yojimbo]

I think you have to reward good scratch match form, so Gowers is a certainty for mine.

He was playing as a "Lukas Webb" dominant inside mid bursting from the stoppage like a rampant gazelle only to be offered an outside role at AFL level in as harsh a travisty of natural justice as i for one have ever seen.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Done my exhaustive end of season review already Hard Ball Get and it is exhaustive will wait until we finish before discussing.

Smother stats included?

 

[Yojimbo]

Smother stats included?

We are a smothering powerhouse.

 

[Doggy]

"Daniel is a smart little player, he knows how to shunt players out of the way to out mark them despite his size. Last year they were playing him like a tiny CHB and he got beaten some days but other times really stood up. Battle would be a lot harder to shove out of his way than some options. He's got so many tricks too, just gets out the back of play at exactly the right time. I'd bring Marsh in and just have him run through him at the first bounce to be honest."

Lol Saints

 

[ScottyDogg]

Disagree completely. As strongly as I could possibly disagree with something. There is always fluctuations with young teams and when you add new players - especially key defenders.
It's pretty simplistic to think there isn't progress just because you're not seeing a rise up the ladder - especially in a crazy mixed up season where we have a new captain who had many matches without other onfield leaders around him.

I know many disagree with me here, I think mainly because it's just the norm to be angry, but this team is not underperforming (yes we have had games below our best, but I think it is expected for a side at our progression point). Bev is not coaching poorly (seriously, this guy is one hell of a coach.) Others have improved, but more in line with expectations- Port maybe a little more than anticipated. The Lions, Cats, Tigers and Eagles at full tilt are in a much better list position than us for 2020 - I cant see an argument against that.

You suggest that my point of view is driven by anger, but I have given you good evidence to support it.

What’s your explanation for why we were able to beat 5 of the other 7 finalists last year? (we were the 8th)

Was it just a really good run of luck or our team overperforming?

Saying our list is not good enough this year but was good enough last year does not stack up.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

You suggest that my point of view is driven by anger, but I have given you good evidence to support it.

What’s your explanation for why we were able to beat 5 of the other 7 finalists last year? (we were the 8th)

Was it just a really good run of luck or our team overperforming?

Saying our list is not good enough this year but was good enough last year does not stack up.

I didnt suggest your opinion was due to anger... I suggested that a lot of people like to perpetuate a negative attitude due to anger... impatience too I guess. Which is why many usually disagree with someone like me.

I also dont think your evidence is really evidence at all when you consider what I've already said above.

Our list just isn't in the same place as the top 5 clubs at the moment. I think it will be, but it's not there yet.

Last year was not luck or over performing. It was a step in our development and we have absolutely taken further steps this year - it just isn't evident in ladder position yet.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

I didnt suggest your opinion was due to anger... I suggested that a lot of people like to perpetuate a negative attitude due to anger... impatience too I guess. Which is why many usually disagree with someone like me.

I also dont think your evidence is really evidence at all when you consider what I've already said above.

Our list just isn't in the same place as the top 5 clubs at the moment. I think it will be, but it's not there yet.

Last year was not luck or over performing. It was a step in our development and we have absolutely taken further steps this year - it just isn't evident in ladder position yet.

What are the objective markers to show our progress? You've already dismissed beating the better teams and finishing higher on the ladder

 

[synchrodogcal]

I think you have to reward good scratch match form, so Gowers is a certainty for mine.

wrong login, scrag

 

[Hard Ball Get]

What are the objective markers to show our progress? You've already dismissed beating the better teams and finishing higher on the ladder

No I didnt. I just said in this instance we haven't seen growth in ladder position.

There has been growth across the 22. We are more structured in defence - still room for improvement, but have seen an improvement there with Williams and Daniel having career best years, while adding Keith. Our forward line has improved with Naughton getting another year under his belt and Wallace becoming a genuine quality mid sized option.
English has improved in the middle and Smith has taken another step too - adding Libba back has strengthened us too. Laith has given us some outside pace, and also polish forward.

These steps, while not showing immediate improvement on the ladder (again, understandable when you look at the list profile of the top 5 teams) have set us up for future sustained success.

 

[BrisDog]

Welcome to the finals Saints
It’s nice to have you here,
Jack Elliott called our club ‘tragic’,
The Saints said “hold my beer”!

Our histories littered with struggle
With the Dee’s, the Roy’s and Norf,
We embrace small men like Libba
Why did you burn your Dwarf?

You watched our flag with envy
‘Why cant this happen to me?’
And Jesus Lord Almighty answered:
“Nick Riewoldt milked that free”.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

Any inside word on Wally's shoulder? I don't feel good about it. Would prefer he missed if not 100% How long does an AC joint take to heal usually? (If it is that?)

 

[Optimistic Dog]

Any inside word on Wally's shoulder? I don't feel good about it. Would prefer he missed if not 100% How long does an AC joint take to heal usually? (If it is that?)

I guess it depends how severe it is. Hopefully type 1 and then he be a good chance.




What are the different types of AC joint injuries?
Type I: where the force applied to the acromioclavicular and coracoclavicular ligaments is too mild to tear them. This will result in only a sprain of the AC joint, and will hurt but not show any evidence of an acromioclavicular joint dislocation.

Type II: where heavier force is applied to the shoulder—disrupting the AC ligaments but leaving the coracoclavicular ligaments intact (but sprained). When these injuries occur, the lateral clavicle becomes more prominent.

Type III: where the force applied to the shoulder completely disrupts the AC ligaments and coracoclavicular ligaments—leading to complete separation of the clavicle and the resulting protrusion or “bump.”

Type IV: where there is posterior displacement of the clavicle, buttonholing through the trapezius muscle.

Type V: where the clavicle is widely displaced as a result of disruption of muscle attachments.

Type VI (rare): where there is inferior displacement of the distal clavicle below the acromial process or the coracoid process.