Autopsy Late fight back not enough as dogs Bow out of finals

[Northernsoul74]

I get the support for Roark Smith and I agree he was solid. But IMO that is as good as it will get. We need players capable of changing the course of games so I favour turning over players and giving opportunities for a gem or two to emerge. Vandermeer is a case in point.

Yep I like him but like Gardner he’s depth and best.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Just listened to the presser and not for the first time Bevo has mentioned how much he'd like the third man up back and I have to agree, the game style we like to play really does suit the third man up and you can argue that we won the premiership off the back of it.

That is the rule along with ruck nomination that I would like to see changed back.

Well it ain’t coming back so Bevo should adapt pretty quick instead of longing for it.

 

[King Harold]

Also who on earth is our ruck coach? It frustrates me like nothing else when English starts every throw in behind his opponent. He just trails in while his opponent wins the hitout each time. Even if you are significantly weaker, it’s very hard for a seasoned ruckman to move anyone out of the way when you are in the correct position, which English never is.

Spot on, their last goal was a result from a shallow ball in. English miles behind.
Again the ruck situation probably cost us the game.

 

[Yojimbo]

Also who on earth is our ruck coach?

King, he should stop writing scary books and pull the boots on to help out "Big Sally" maybe he could get the Sweet potato ready, but of course he is not AFL standard although you will never find out until you "UNLEASH THE BEAST". So disappointed to have not seen the Naughton back, Sweet ruck and English forward rotation at all this year. Don't think Bevo, do (Even though Hawthorn got smashed when Kennedy gave that speech), baby Jesus is crying and daylight savings has started, don't forget to put your clocks forward.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Where English is the biggest issue is around the ground stoppages because he cannot compete body on body, centre bounces he can run and jump in impeded. It’s the stoppages around the ground our hit out numbers are bad and where the opposition get cleaner ball.

Yet we win around the ground stoppages most weeks.
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense.

 

[The Inbetweener]

The issue with English yesterday wasn’t even necessarily his ruck work. It’s that he got directly out marked on several occasions, failed to fly for contests when we needed to break even and then hardly gave us a target around the ground

 

[Freshwater]

Also who on earth is our ruck coach? It frustrates me like nothing else when English starts every throw in behind his opponent. He just trails in while his opponent wins the hitout each time. Even if you are significantly weaker, it’s very hard for a seasoned ruckman to move anyone out of the way when you are in the correct position, which English never is.

Who is our back up ruckman? What if English had been injured either in a game or couldn’t play? Sweet and Trengove should’ve played more through the year.

 

[Freshwater]

MattDougie could've invested 7 figures into the footy club, we'd still be better off not having him.

Do you just want continual self confirmation? I often disagree with MattDougie, but it helps me think. I disagree with him to an extent on Brendan McCartney, I don’t believe we would have won a flag with him, but I’d love to see him back in a development/assistant/mentoring role and to challenge Bevo.
But we can’t live in an echo chamber of just our own views.

 

[Doggies_13]

Yet we win around the ground stoppages most weeks.
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense.

It does make sense you just don’t want to see it.

If we are winning stoppages around the ground it’s a credit to our mids. But a lot of times English gets manhandled and the ball gets outside the inner circle of the stoppage to their open players and they get clean ball and clean inside 50s or transition as a result.

If we had a ruck that could break even body on body imagine the dominance in clearances we would have, imagine how hard it would be for the opposition to get the ball wider and get clean use.

Just cause our mids win more stoppages than they lose doesn’t mean the ruck isn’t an issue

 

[Yojimbo]

Yet we win around the ground stoppages most weeks.
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense.

Even "Big Sally" sharked a few opposition taps yesterday, the opposition rucks must get self conscious and say "Why is everyone looking at me ?". I know you already have found a golden ticket Charlie Bucket and have a chocolate factory, but open your eyes we have been losing the same way for years.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

It does make sense you just don’t want to see it.

If we are winning stoppages around the ground it’s a credit to our mids. But a lot of times English gets manhandled and the ball gets outside the inner circle of the stoppage to their open players and they get clean ball and clean inside 50s or transition as a result.

If we had a ruck that could break even body on body imagine the dominance in clearances we would have, imagine how hard it would be for the opposition to get the ball wider and get clean use.

Just cause our mids win more stoppages than they lose doesn’t mean the ruck isn’t an issue

I see it clear as day. You aren’t making sense.
Your original comment was that we struggle with around the ground stoppages because it’s an area of weakness for English.
No argument regarding Engish’s weak point, but the rest is factually incorrect.

You and plenty of others in here make things up in your head ignoring how the games are actually played out.
Go and have a look at the hit out and clearance numbers of the games played this year. There’s no direct link between a dominant ruck and a dominant midfield.
In fact, you only need to look at the games we play in to see that having a dominant ruck doesn’t mean your mids will get on top.

Look at the first 3 games played this week...

Port beaten comfortably in the hit outs, dominated the clearances.

Tigers smacked in the hitouts, broke even in the clearances, even getting on top in the clearances around the ground.

Dogs smashed in the hitouts, won clearances, dominated around the ground clearances.

This has been the trend for a lot of the season.

 

[BRWB]

.meh game to end a meh season.

We and Daniel looked better when Daniel went out of defence. Geary played him well.

We look better with Bruce in the ruck
(or out of the fwd line).
Likewise we looked better with English not rucking and playing fwd

English cost us multiple goals. His giving up front position to Ryder 20 m out in a marking contest was horrible. He was continually bumped and rag dolled by opposing rucks. Until he builds some core strength he should be a fwd ruck. I love.his talent but be kills us.

Lipinski has been soft at the contest multiple time this yr at critical.points. so has JJ.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND BEV.

Why persist with Gardener when the obvious solution was to play Bruce back?
Why move Crozier fwd whenhas been awesome back?
Why leave Daniel back when exquisite creativity is desperate needed fwd of centre. Daniel was not in defence in 16...
Why not pick Trengove to play ruck, release English fwd, Bruce back and Gardner gone?

WHY?

Honestly think Bev has taken the piss this season.

 

[Mutt]

I see it clear as day. You aren’t making sense.
Your original comment was that we struggle with around the ground stoppages because it’s an area of weakness for English.
That’s factually incorrect.

You and plenty of others in here make things up in your head ignoring how the games are actually played out.
Go and have a look at the hit out and clearance numbers of the games played this year. There’s no direct link between a dominant ruck and a dominant midfield.
In fact, you only need to look at the games we play in to see that having a dominant ruck doesn’t mean your mids will get on top.

Look at the first 3 games played this week...

Port beaten comfortably in the hit outs, dominated the clearances.

Tigers smacked in the hitouts, broke even in the clearances, even getting on top in the clearances around the ground.

Dogs smashed in the hitouts, won clearances, dominated around the ground clearances.

This has been the trend for a lot of the season.

All those examples show is that a dominant clearance/stoppages midfield can overcome some or all of the deficit of a losing tap ruckman. Imaging that same midfield playing with a good tap ruckman though?

English relegates our midfield to having to win a ball that is never hit to their advantage - especially at around the ground stoppages.

 

[The Inbetweener]

.meh game to end a meh season.

We and Daniel looked better when Daniel went out of defence. Geary played him well.

We look better with Bruce in the ruck
(or out of the fwd line).
Likewise we looked better with English not rucking and playing fwd

English cost us multiple goals. His giving up front position to Ryder 20 m out in a marking contest was horrible. He was continually bumped and rag dolled by opposing rucks. Until he builds some core strength he should be a fwd ruck. I love.his talent but be kills us.

Lipinski has been soft at the contest multiple time this yr at critical.points. so has JJ.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND BEV.

Why persist with Gardener when the obvious solution was to play Bruce back?
Why move Crozier fwd whenhas been awesome back?
Why leave Daniel back when exquisite creativity is desperate needed fwd of centre. Daniel was not in defence in 16...
Why not pick Trengove to play ruck, release English fwd, Bruce back and Gardner gone?

WHY?

Honestly think Bev has taken the piss this season.

Agree with everything other than Bruce playing back. He has no athleticism and horrible speed. Key forwards would get so much separation from him. Seen a lot of people say he needs a big pre season to get some speed and mobility. He’s 28, those things will continue to get worse, not better.

hope I’m wrong as I agree 100% English should play forward, but just can’t see Bruce working in defence.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

All those examples show is that a dominant clearance/stoppages midfield can overcome some or all of the deficit of a losing tap ruckman. Imaging that same midfield playing with a good tap ruckman though?

English relegates our midfield to having to win a ball that is never hit to their advantage - especially at around the ground stoppages.

Again, you’re ignoring recent history choosing to wing it instead

Cats win ruck, Port win clearances.
Lions win ruck, Draw clearances.
Tigers win ruck, Cats win clearances.
Lions win ruck, Swans win clearances.
WC/Saints draw ruck, Saints smash clearances.
Crows win rucks, crows win clearances. (Tigers win game by 7 goals)
Freo win ruck, Dogs win clearances.
Hawks win ruck, Dogs win clearances.

Just a few random games from the last two rounds of the season. Apart from the dogs games, tell me where you see each of these teams midfields and where they tie in with the ruck/clearance numbers in the relevant games.

Most teams nowadays ruck to a dead ball anyway regardless of which ruck got there hand to it. WC and Nic Nat probably the only exception, but even then it’s not always the case for their mids that they don’t have to negate a break even ruck contest.

The facts are that a good ruck/mid combo doesn’t automatically equate to a dominant midfield performance. Partly due to the above where mids set up to compete for a dead ball and partly to the fact that the effective hit out numbers are so low across the comp. Hit outs just aren’t as valuable as what they used to be, where as a good stoppage set up is.
Hence the better rucks in the comp evolving to play a more rounded game that influences around the ground. Grundy, O’Brien, Marshall, Ladhams etc.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

I am glad this campaigner of a year is over. It hurt a bit to lose another final, and the Saints are irritating, but mainly because they have a number of well known trolls. One in particular who blahs on about umpire bias, has obviously never watched the 2009 Pre lim, to see the umpire biais that got his team into a GF.

However most Saints were really happy for us in 2016, and we should remember that. They are a small club, unsuccessful club, who needed to give their supporters some hope, so rather them then Geelong or Swans. I also will be right behind them next week when they play Richmond.

The game itself, just didn’t have any finals intensity, was it the lack of a crowd, playing at the Gabba, I don’t know. Losing Cordy, made it really difficult and we lost our structure for a bit and let them in, we scrambled back into the game but they wanted it more.

I don’t understand the Bevo bashing, we are rebuilding and making finals at the same time. The team won’t have AA players on every line, the last team who had that built their team from numerous F/S which was Geelong. We have some players who just have to play their role, the same as Hamling and Biggs and Roberts in 2016. If Bevo is persevering with Gardner and Roarke and Bruce, he can see the long game, not week by week.

The ruck, everyone keeps saying we lose games because of the ruck, but teams with A grade rucks didn’t make finals and we did. I felt bad for Trengove not getting a game this year, but he is a clumsy ruck who lets in a lot of goals.

Heads up Doggies, we have the draft to look forward to, and hopefully we will be back at Marvel next year for a really good year in 2021.

 

[BRWB]

Agree with everything other than Bruce playing back. He has no athleticism and horrible speed. Key forwards would get so much separation from him. Seen a lot of people say he needs a big pre season to get some speed and mobility. He’s 28, those things will continue to get worse, not better.

hope I’m wrong as I agree 100% English should play forward, but just can’t see Bruce working in defence.

Agree in part though the high balls StK were running with were tailor made for a slowish beast like Bruce (or Trengove).

 

[King Harold]

I see it clear as day. You aren’t making sense.
Your original comment was that we struggle with around the ground stoppages because it’s an area of weakness for English.
No argument regarding Engish’s weak point, but the rest is factually incorrect.

You and plenty of others in here make things up in your head ignoring how the games are actually played out.
Go and have a look at the hit out and clearance numbers of the games played this year. There’s no direct link between a dominant ruck and a dominant midfield.
In fact, you only need to look at the games we play in to see that having a dominant ruck doesn’t mean your mids will get on top.

Look at the first 3 games played this week...

Port beaten comfortably in the hit outs, dominated the clearances.

Tigers smacked in the hitouts, broke even in the clearances, even getting on top in the clearances around the ground.

Dogs smashed in the hitouts, won clearances, dominated around the ground clearances.

This has been the trend for a lot of the season.

How many times did the other ruckman take the ball out of the stoppage for a clean clearance ?
( Their last goal from a shallow ball in was typical )
I genuinely don’t know for sure , but I am guessing about 6 times ?
He was smashed again last night.
I really like English , but our mids are being asked to play with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[Al dente]

For me, three players were really disappointing:

Cordy was awful before the injury, missed the ball completely nearly every time when in position to spoil. Been ordinary this year and Bevo gave him a bake in the presser. cant remember the exact phrasing but it wasn't complimentary. Ideally he and Gardner and a couple of other fringe players fight for 1 spot next year, might bring the best out of him.

Lipinski didnt seem to cover the ground and get into dangerous positions, and was soft in a few crucial plays. needs to learn how to take and break a tackle and get a possession away. He has developed a body for it, but doesnt use it. He can get away with a lack of pace, but you cant be slow and soft. I would like to be a fly on the wall for his end of season interview, wont be pretty.

English had one of his more passive games, and those boundary throw in no-contests, wow, i expected him to be better in a final

 

[fronkalicious]

Brisbane - martin and big O
Port - lycett and Ladhams (and Charlie)
Rich - nankervis and chol
Pies - Grundy, cameron and Cox
West coast - Nic Nat and allen
St Kilda - Ryder, Marshall

Us - under developed skinny bloke and plonker key forward that can’t run.

Geelong the other finals team that don’t value the ruck, and lycett dominated them.

When asked about the ruck situation after the game, beveridge:

1. Whinges about the 3rd man up rule coming in.

2. Says why would you bring in a back up ruckman when most of them just leave for lack of opportunity anyway.

I give up. Our mids should string this bloke up. Give them a chance FFS.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

I know a few St Kilda supporters in real life and I’d be absolutely delighted for them if the Saints ever won their second flag.

But seeing St Kilda’s pissant supporters on the main board trolling their asses off makes me hope they never win another game again and end up in triple figures for their wooden spoon count.

I’ve kinda had this experience too. Saints online supporters are horrendous. Saints people I know in real life are great people. Weird.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Yet we win around the ground stoppages most weeks.
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense.

Imagine if we had clean takeaways though Charlie, then we dominate stoppages, clearances and win last night. 12 to 3 hit outs to advantage is a massive win to a team when you lose by 3 points.

 

[Yojimbo]

I really like English , but our mids are being asked to play with one hand tied behind their back.

Don't give Bevo coaching tips KH, if our midfielders have one hand tied behind their backs next year it's on you.

 

[D Mitchell]

Last night’s hitouts and clearances

StK 31 & 24. ‘dogs 9 & 26.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/matchup?gameId=1087749

On clearances, the difference was 2, that’s a bounce of the ball or a decision by the umpire not to stop play etc. Is it

(a) Even though we lost the hitoouts, we still won (?) the clearances; or

(b) imagine what would have happened if we’d also won the hitouts. ?

I’d like to see a stat on the quality of a clearance. A tap to a running mid is a clearance but so is a scramble at the ruckmen’s feet with the winner having to bang the ball forward under pressure. Which is more likely to result in a score ? Our clearances are the latter type. Our gameplan is heavily reliant upon winning clearances, a line ball on clearances, in the circumstances, is a big loss. View (a) is a ridiculous view but it does have something going for it, it appears to be Beveridge’s view.

There was not a lot of differences between the clubs in the stats, we were in front by not much in all but kicks and hitouts. On stats, we should have won, we even had 2 more scoring shots. So why did we lose ? The trouble with watching a game on TV is that you only see what’s happening around the ball. Why was it that St Kilda players always seemed to be in front, that our entries into the forward 50 seemed to pick out St Kilda defenders, that Wallis could slot an almost impossible goal from the boundary on his right foot but miss 2 from dead in front, that Smith missed an absolute sitter when the game was there to be won ? I don’t think it was deficiencies in the playing group that was responsible, it was simply bad kicking, that’s above the shoulders stuff.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Imagine if we had clean takeaways though Charlie, then we dominate stoppages, clearances and win last night. 12 to 3 hit outs to advantage is a massive win to a team when you lose by 3 points.

Ruckman getting their hand to the ball first doesn’t equate to the mids getting first chance at the ball. Ive stated that a number of times.
If every time English got his hand to the ball it resulted in our players getting first use, then what you are saying would make sense. It doesn’t happen that way though.
Teams don’t solely set up to rove their rucks hitouts.