Autopsy Late fight back not enough as dogs Bow out of finals

[CarnTheScray]

Have St Kilda really “rocketed past us” though? I don’t buy into that all, they’ve recruited heavily for the “now“ over the past 2 years. North also did that over the last decade and made finals but look at them now. We have more upside on our list than the Saints.

Port have struck something pretty special this year no doubt. Not a great list but tough and well coached. Everyone is buying in. Can pinch it this year but could also see them falling off a cliff in 2021 like we did in 2017. The temporary magic disappears at some point though.

Brisbane, yeah fair enough but they’ve been developing for longer with a lot more assistance. Just think we’re at very different stages to be comparing ourselves with them.

Why weren't we looking at Butler, Ryder, Hill? Those players fill the spots that we have been desperately calling for over 2 seasons. I'm telling you now our list recruitment has the intelligence of a bag of rocks. Keath was a good move but the Saints clearly knew more about Bruce than us.

 

[AJARWA]

I do see potential significant growth on the list for next year. It’s possible that from our 22 last night that no one really regresses bar Wood.

I’ll be looking at growth from Naughton, English, Lipinski, Richards & Smith as the ones to push us to a new level.

I agree we're likely to see improvement in performance and consistency from those players. But most teams around us also have a core group of young players who will improve.

My point is that we need a stepped improvement to go to the top four and to achieve that, in my view, we need more than just continued progression from our existing group.

That might come from a revised coaching group, some new proven talent, and/or a rethink of our game plan. Or hopefully all three.

 

[Mojorisin]

I’m not a Lipinski fan either. He’s got a bit of talent but not enough to make up for his slowness & and , er, what they euphemistically call ‘a lack of desire for the contest’

he’s not 3rd effort Pat

Reminds me of Lukas Webb.

 

[Lex22]

Can't "recruiting for the now" be a valid strategy if it results in finals participation and increased membership? Also, apart from Hannebery (29) and Ryder (32) most of the other players recently recruited are in their prime: Howard (24), Butler (24), Hill (27), Jones (25), Kent (26). I'm not convinced "we have more upside" than the Saints either. They have a group of young potential stars who will be showing more improvement in coming years: King, Coffield, Clark, Battle; even Marshall is only a little older than English with plenty of upside. We will need to recruit a few better quality players to match them in coming seasons IMO.

Most definitely, Saints recruiting has been good hence a finals finish wasn’t a total shock. Just saying that it doesn’t always equal sustained success.

We were a goal off beating them in a final though where we were very hot and cold, they outplayed us and we still nearly pinched it.

I just don’t buy that they’ve rocketed past us. Drawn level for now is probably a more accurate statement.

 

[Lex22]

Why weren't we looking at Butler, Ryder, Hill? Those players fill the spots that we have been desperately calling for over 2 seasons. I'm telling you now our list recruitment has the intelligence of a bag of rocks. Keath was a good move but the Saints clearly knew more about Bruce than us.

You’re not wrong. I’m baffled as to why we didn’t go after Ryder. Was the exact player we needed.

We can turn it around though. Saints have won one final in what 9-10 years by a few points? It’s not panic stations yet.

 

[CarnTheScray]

I just don’t buy that they’ve rocketed past us. Drawn level for now is probably a more accurate statement.

Well they jumped from 15th to 6th and have a core of young players, Ryder being their only real ageing worry.

Off-field they've beaten us by 10,000 in membership while we have gone backwards since the flag. I get that revenue is the real indicator though as memberships numbers are fluffed with some clubs.

They're not the only ones beating us off field though. Essendon haven't won a final for 16 years yet have actually risen to 80,000 members, only now this year has that dropped while we have declined after a flag.

There's many reasons for that decline but my pessimism says another 1954 style aftermath is happening. I won't change that view until I actually see improvement, not false hope.

 

[BEaston]

Why did we decide to start playing with any sort of finals intensity in the 4th quarter? Did the players not get the memo we didn't have the 2nd chance?

Annoying.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

In theory. Schache has also played 2 of worst games in terms of effort I’ve ever seen from a Dogs player. One last year when he got dropped for a long time, one this year and the same happened. The issue is so concerning Chris Grant recently gave an interview calling it out publicly.

I get your point but there are absolutely double standards. English’s stretch in the middle of this year contained 3 of the worst games I’ve ever seen at any level. Not only was a he a non-factor, his inability to play his own position cost us the use of a good midfielder who had to ruck in his absence. Yet English was never dropped, let alone banished

 

[Zeno The Great]

Same issues all year exposed us in final.
- poor goal kicking
- smashed in ruck with no support for English who should be our fwd/ruck not ruck/fwd
- bombing high into forward line
- bottom players getting exposed at key moments
- press too high, easy goals over the top for opposition

Also the club moved on the previous party boys to improve the culture only to replace them with others just as bad. Still a massive issue at our club.

 

[Lex22]

Well they jumped from 15th to 6th and have a core of young players, Ryder being their only real ageing worry.

Off-field they've beaten us by 10,000 in membership while we have gone backwards since the flag. I get that revenue is the real indicator though as memberships numbers are fluffed with some clubs.

They're not the only ones beating us off field though. Essendon haven't won a final for 16 years yet have actually risen to 80,000 members, only now this year has that dropped while we have declined after a flag.

There's many reasons for that decline but my pessimism says another 1954 style aftermath is happening. I won't change that view until I actually see improvement, not false hope.

We also have a core of young players (for mine that are better) and with a few large holes on our side, were still nailing just one of 3-4 missed sodas off beating them.

If we beat them, then the narrative changes heavily.

 

[yebiga]

I see it clear as day. You aren’t making sense.
Your original comment was that we struggle with around the ground stoppages because it’s an area of weakness for English.
No argument regarding Engish’s weak point, but the rest is factually incorrect.

You and plenty of others in here make things up in your head ignoring how the games are actually played out.
Go and have a look at the hit out and clearance numbers of the games played this year. There’s no direct link between a dominant ruck and a dominant midfield.
In fact, you only need to look at the games we play in to see that having a dominant ruck doesn’t mean your mids will get on top.

Look at the first 3 games played this week...

Port beaten comfortably in the hit outs, dominated the clearances.

Tigers smacked in the hitouts, broke even in the clearances, even getting on top in the clearances around the ground.

Dogs smashed in the hitouts, won clearances, dominated around the ground clearances.

This has been the trend for a lot of the season.

We have one of deepest and best midfields in the league so those stats will hide the how bad the situation has become. Further, across the year we are playing poorer teams. So we will do better.

In finals against quality teams the dozen clean clearances from stoppages we conceded to the saints were decisive. If the stats don’t tell you that then it’s because mere numbers can’t convey the key moments, the momentum shifts or the consequences of any particular stat.

just like a shot at goal from the goal square is different to a shot from the boundary from. 45 meters - but both are statistically shots.

Against quality sides, around all stoppages our mids are forced to be always reactive and in a final that becomes a significant advantage to the opposition.

 

[Leon]

Re: Beveridge whinging about 3rd man up being banned.

I am with him, insofar as I was disgusted with the AFL for banning it and still am.

The AFL constantly craps on about how they want less congestion in the game, yet banned one of the most effective tactics for beating congestion in 3rd man up, all to give the AFL’s stupid Rules Committee a reason to exist and because the side that won the premiership used the tactic effectively.

On the other hand, it’s been banned for four years so Beveridge should simply have dealt with it by now.

His constant refusal to change the ruck tactics and refusal to give English support in the ruck is now irritating me more than the AFL annoyed me by actually banning 3rd man up.

 

[badkicking]

Just watched the replay of the last quarter, 5 times Roarke Smith was outmarked, he looked intimated, he should be one of the 6 changes the coach talks about for next year, simply not up to the standard required at that level

 

[Generation West]

What we need next year is to play Sweet from game 1 and use English as a deep fwd / 2nd ruckman. We also need to play 2 of Weightman, West and Cavarra every week and JUH and Naughton.

Guys like Bruce, Lloyd, Richards, Lipinski etc need to perform or go out of the team and probably only used as depth.

We play Trengrove and Cavarra instead of Bruce and Cordy last night we win.

 

[CarnTheScray]

What we need next year is to play Sweet from game 1 and use English as a deep fwd / 2nd ruckman. We also need to play 2 of Weightman, West and Cavarra every week and JUH and Naughton.

Guys like Bruce, Lloyd, Richards, Lipinski etc need to perform or go out of the team and probably only used as depth.

We play Trengrove and Cavarra instead of Bruce and Cordy last night we win.

Beveridge himself has said that Sweet is not up to AFL standard.

Then why is he on our list? Should not be on it next year.

 

[fred cook]

What we need next year is to play Sweet from game 1 and use English as a deep fwd / 2nd ruckman. We also need to play 2 of Weightman, West and Cavarra every week and JUH and Naughton.

Guys like Bruce, Lloyd, Richards, Lipinski etc need to perform or go out of the team and probably only used as depth.

We play Trengrove and Cavarra instead of Bruce and Cordy last night we win.

Ok so we have English in our forward line Bruce in our forward line and the number 1 draft pick of 2020 Naughtom must go to the backline in 2021 then

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Beveridge himself has said that Sweet is not up to AFL standard.

Then why is he on our list? Should not be on it next year.

He said YET!! Pretty important detail you’ve left out.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I get the feeling you don’t want to see or admit we have any issues but I’m going to try to articulate it better.

You are right hit outs don’t totally equal clearances, but you can lose hit outs around the ground but be able to body and compete enough that the hit out is a discriminate one that drops the ball in close.

The ability to compete and match strength means the force the opposition ruck can get on the hit out is minimal. The thing with English is he gets easily pushed aside so whilst we won the stoppages around the ground yesterday 18-12 how many of the saints 12 were hit clear of the stoppage to grant them an easy clearance and ability to use the ball under No pressure? I would say a lot.

Last time we played the saints Tim gave up 20 hit outs to advantage not sure what it was this time, I think he did better than last time but he still can’t compete at around the ground stoppages.

Our midfielders are in the top echelon in the AFL and do a mighty job sharking opposition taps each week. But we don’t get the clean and clear easy clearances that the opposition do due to Tim’s inability to physically compete yet.

We are a 7-12 team, with a more competitive ruck we could be a top 6 team because we would limit the oppositions hit outs to advantage and clean clearances at around the ground stoppages and gain more clearances and probably some easier clearances. It would also allow us to set up more aggressively at stoppages and force the opposition to be more defensive.

Yesterday we dominated the clearances in the last quarter when our players went man on man, it took away the ability of the opposition to get the ball clear as it was always to a contest and we won it because in a contest between one of our mids and one of theirs we are winning that contest 9/10 times.

It’s an issue because our midfield cannot dominate as they are capable of and with that dominance comes field position dominance, more time to set a defensive zone up and places more pressure on the opposition at stoppages. The games you suggested show that teams win the hit outs and lose clearance is true but the were the clearances clean or pressured? What was the hit out to advantage difference? How many times did the hit out team get the ball clear or take it out of the ruck?

I haven’t said we don’t have issues. Doesn’t take a genius to realise that. You’re moving the goal posts though. You said our clearance work around the ground is an issue and not our centre bounce clearance work. That’s factually incorrect as I’ve said a number of times now.

As for your last paragraph, you’ve just explained why direct hitouts aren’t an issue in the current game. There’s so many variables that a team that wins the hitouts doesn’t always win the clearances. And our midfield plays accordingly.
Doesn’t matter how they’re won, as long as you’re team gets on top.
Thanks for clearing that up!!

 

[Charlie Bucket]

You are completely ignoring my point. Answer this - would we be a better team and would our very good midfield be even more dominant if NicNat or Grundy, Gawn or Goldstein was our ruckman? Now what if we had one of those and English as well?

Im not ignoring your point. It’s that it loses validity because some of those teams mentioned have strong ruckman and strong midfields yet they don’t consistently win the clearance rate. As I mentioned.
You want it to be black and white, where a good ruck/mid combo win out every game, but unfortunately it’s not always the case.

 

[stefcep]

Do you really think Bevo is that dumb? He’ll know it was more than a 3 point loss.

He's not dumb, but for all we know it might have been the plan to stay in touch and come home with a wet sail. Hell, he could easily argue that the gettable misses cost the game. Its not lilke he can kick the goal for Hunter, Smith and others

 

[Yojimbo]

He said YET!! Pretty important detail you’ve left out.

I would not know what it's like to have an AFL standard ruck, YET!! 15 all, and i have a wicked first serve.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Just watched the replay of the last quarter, 5 times Roarke Smith was outmarked, he looked intimated, he should be one of the 6 changes the coach talks about for next year, simply not up to the standard required at that level

Or he’s another that’s not a forward asked to play forward.

 

[stefcep]

Im not ignoring your point. It’s that it loses validity because some of those teams mentioned have strong ruckman and strong midfields yet they don’t consistently win the clearance rate. As I mentioned.
You want it to be black and white, where a good ruck/mid combo win out every game, but unfortunately it’s not always the case.

I agree with this. In the olden days perhaps it was true but fact is West Coast last night lost with Nic Nat and a quality midfield. The game is so different now to the past.

 

[Generation West]

Ok so we have English in our forward line Bruce in our forward line and the number 1 draft pick of 2020 Naughtom must go to the backline in 2021 then

Personally I would go with this fwd line r1 2021
Wallis English Weightman
JUH Naughton West

 

[Mutt]

Im not ignoring your point. It’s that it loses validity because some of those teams mentioned have strong ruckman and strong midfields yet they don’t consistently win the clearance rate. As I mentioned.
You want it to be black and white, where a good ruck/mid combo win out every game, but unfortunately, it’s not always the case.

A good ruck/mid combo is better than every other option isn't it? You put words into other people's mouths. Nobody has said that a good ruck combo means you mostly win the clearances. A good midfield group is more important than a good ruck combo....but having a good midfield and a pretty decent ruck combo trumps a good midfield alone. Surely you must concede that?