Autopsy Late fight back not enough as dogs Bow out of finals

Al dente

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Sep 11, 2019
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I get your point but there are absolutely double standards. English’s stretch in the middle of this year contained 3 of the worst games I’ve ever seen at any level. Not only was a he a non-factor, his inability to play his own position cost us the use of a good midfielder who had to ruck in his absence. Yet English was never dropped, let alone banished
i agree with this. One of the things that disturbs me about the English situation is that there is no motivation for him to bring intensity every week. If you know you wont be dropped no matter what, you will consciously or unconsciously coast from time to time. There's no negative punishment for poor performance and reduced positive reinforcement for good performance (keeping your spot or earning it back). this cant be ideal for development.

He is also the only player in the team (and possibly the AFL) for whom the rules/ consequences of form and effort don't apply.
 
Dec 29, 2009
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Hobart
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I haven’t said we don’t have issues. Doesn’t take a genius to realise that. You’re moving the goal posts though. You said our clearance work around the ground is an issue and not our centre bounce clearance work. That’s factually incorrect as I’ve said a number of times now.

As for your last paragraph, you’ve just explained why direct hitouts aren’t an issue in the current game. There’s so many variables that a team that wins the hitouts doesn’t always win the clearances. And our midfield plays accordingly.
Doesn’t matter how they’re won, as long as you’re team gets on top.
Thanks for clearing that up!!

I haven’t moved the goal posts are clearances around the ground are an issue due the the ability of the opposition ruck to clear congestion and get clean ball out of the stoppage. If we get 20 stoppage clearances but they are all contested and scrambled kicks that end up in turnovers, yet the opposition get 10 clearances that are put on a platter to them with no pressure and hit their forwards lace out which team has been better? Statistically us with 20 but realistically the team with 10 that has generated more scores and cause our clearances to amount in turnovers.

It does matter how they are won there is a huge difference between a pressured clearance and an unpressured clearance and due to Tim not being ready unpressured clearances is what we give up around the ground, when we make it a contest we win the clearance but ours are never easy unpressured ones.

Anyone who had played, coached and technically understood football would understand want I’m saying.
 

Charlie Bucket

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We have one of deepest and best midfields in the league so those stats will hide the how bad the situation has become. Further, across the year we are playing poorer teams. So we will do better.

In finals against quality teams the dozen clean clearances from stoppages we conceded to the saints were decisive. If the stats don’t tell you that then it’s because mere numbers can’t convey the key moments, the momentum shifts or the consequences of any particular stat.

just like a shot at goal from the goal square is different to a shot from the boundary from. 45 meters - but both are statistically shots.

Against quality sides, around all stoppages our mids are forced to be always reactive and in a final that becomes a significant advantage to the opposition.
A good ruck/mid combo is better than every other option isn't it? You put words into other people's mouths. Nobody has said that a good ruck combo means you mostly win the clearances. A good midfield group is more important than a good ruck combo....but having a good midfield and a pretty decent ruck combo trumps a good midfield alone. Surely you must concede that?

This is exactly what people are saying.
A good ruck/mid combo is better than every other option isn't it? You put words into other people's mouths. Nobody has said that a good ruck combo means you mostly win the clearances.

That’s exactly what’s being discussed here. Some posters think that to get on top of the clearances we need a better ruckman.

but having a good midfield and a pretty decent ruck combo trumps a good midfield alone. Surely you must concede that?

Our team of the last 2 years debunks that myth. We’ve been one of the best performing stoppage teams in that time with one of the worst performing rucks.

Why do you and others ignore that?
 

VogonProsthetnic

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Listening to beveridges press conference may take aways were:

he got very defensive when asked about our deficiencies, asking the report to tell him what our deficiencies are, we scrapped into finals and got knocked out first round we clearly have deficiencies not sure why so defensive.

Won’t review the game until next year, all leaving Queensland Tuesday, having exit interviews before then and BnF Monday.

English is 2-3 years from his peak but we won’t be bringing in a ruck because if you bring in a ruck that isn’t first choice they will just want to leave so why bring them in and develop them - I didn’t really get this ramble from beveridge, you could bring in a mature ruck for a year or two.

Also went on about how well our mids do for scores from centre clearances sitting second in the league. Centre clearances aren’t the issue the around the ground stoppages are.

The team will probably have 6 different players round one next year. Not sure who those would be VDM and JUH are the only ones that spring to my mind.

Our pressure from our forwards and lack of smalls allowed them to transition back out too easily - I agree with that

We will try to be active in the trade period to strengthen our team and depth to put pressure on positions - obviously not the ruck though
I haven’t moved the goal posts are clearances around the ground are an issue due the the ability of the opposition ruck to clear congestion and get clean ball out of the stoppage. If we get 20 stoppage clearances but they are all contested and scrambled kicks that end up in turnovers, yet the opposition get 10 clearances that are put on a platter to them with no pressure and hit their forwards lace out which team has been better? Statistically us with 20 but realistically the team with 10 that has generated more scores and cause our clearances to amount in turnovers.

It does matter how they are won there is a huge difference between a pressured clearance and an unpressured clearance and due to Tim not being ready unpressured clearances is what we give up around the ground, when we make it a contest we win the clearance but ours are never easy unpressured ones.

Anyone who had played, coached and technically understood football would understand want I’m saying.

I think the Saints only final quarter goal (winning them the game) proves your point perfectly.
 

stefcep

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This is exactly what people are saying.


That’s exactly what’s being discussed here. Some posters think that to get on top of the clearances we need a better ruckman.



Our team of the last 2 years debunks that myth. We’ve been one of the best performing stoppage teams in that time with one of the worst performing rucks.

Why do you and others ignore that?

I think when your drill down to it, the problem really is the system of play that others don't like.

In our system, YOU are right, the ruck is not as critical to creating scoring opportunities.

In a DIFFERENT system, you'd be wrong. We'd need the ruck.
 

Charlie Bucket

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I haven’t moved the goal posts are clearances around the ground are an issue due the the ability of the opposition ruck to clear congestion and get clean ball out of the stoppage. If we get 20 stoppage clearances but they are all contested and scrambled kicks that end up in turnovers, yet the opposition get 10 clearances that are put on a platter to them with no pressure and hit their forwards lace out which team has been better? Statistically us with 20 but realistically the team with 10 that has generated more scores and cause our clearances to amount in turnovers.

It does matter how they are won there is a huge difference between a pressured clearance and an unpressured clearance and due to Tim not being ready unpressured clearances is what we give up around the ground, when we make it a contest we win the clearance but ours are never easy unpressured ones.

Anyone who had played, coached and technically understood football would understand want I’m saying.

Haha Im tipping my credentials have yours covered D13.

You’re moving the goal posts again. Where’s your proof that our clearances are ineffective compared to our opposition? Where’s your proof that the opposition walk the ball out of the stoppages? The fact is you don’t know any of that. What you should know though, seeing as you watch our games, is that we are extreme effective at moving the ball away from stoppages. Our inside 50 counts and scores for are some way of proving that. I’m surprised you think otherwise.

You’re trying to use an unknown to prove your argument that our stoppage clearances are lacking.

You were factually incorrect and are now struggling to cop it on the chin.
 
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stefcep

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I think the Saints only final quarter goal (winning them the game) proves your point perfectly.


Yep its how WE play.
I haven’t moved the goal posts are clearances around the ground are an issue due the the ability of the opposition ruck to clear congestion and get clean ball out of the stoppage. If we get 20 stoppage clearances but they are all contested and scrambled kicks that end up in turnovers, yet the opposition get 10 clearances that are put on a platter to them with no pressure and hit their forwards lace out which team has been better? Statistically us with 20 but realistically the team with 10 that has generated more scores and cause our clearances to amount in turnovers.

It does matter how they are won there is a huge difference between a pressured clearance and an unpressured clearance and due to Tim not being ready unpressured clearances is what we give up around the ground, when we make it a contest we win the clearance but ours are never easy unpressured ones.

Anyone who had played, coached and technically understood football would understand want I’m saying.

But your issue is with HOW we play in general, as opposed to the ruck issue.

We don't play the way you suggest we should- we Do work too hard for our chances, but you know what, we had more than enough chances to win and win well.

In normal quarter lengths we would have-they kicked one last quarter goal, and that's fine, its not realistic to expect to keep the opposition goal less in a quarter.
 

Charlie Bucket

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I think when your drill down to it, the problem really is the system of play that others don't like.

In our system, YOU are right, the ruck is not as critical to creating scoring opportunities.

In a DIFFERENT system, you'd be wrong. We'd need the ruck.

Tigers are another perfect example. They are the 2nd worst clearance team in the comp yet play a style that wins the ball back on turnover pressure.
Thats how they play and I’d be surprised to hear the tiger players complaining that they’re having to play at a disadvantage cause they concede the stoppage advantage.

Too many in here wear blinkers when they watch games. It’s astounding really.
 

Yojimbo

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I'm just amazed at the negativity at English right now.

I'm sure if we don't want him, he'll have a long list of clubs that will be happy to have him, and probs end up a 300 gamer.
Big Sally goes alright, but as most people say he should be a forward/ruck at this early stage of his career that is not negative, it's called development.
 
Dec 29, 2009
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Haha Im tipping my credentials have yours covered D13.

You’re moving the goal posts again. Where’s your proof that our clearances are ineffective compared to our opposition? Where’s your proof that the opposition walk the ball out of the stoppages? The fact is you don’t know any of that. What you should know though, seeing as you watch our games, is that we are extreme effective at moving the ball away from stoppages. I’m surprised you think otherwise.

You’re trying to use an unknown to prove your argument that our stoppage clearances are lacking.

You were factually incorrect and are now struggling to cop it on the chin.

I haven’t moved the goal posts at all, clearances are clearances. I said originally our issue is our stoppages around the ground, I never said we lose clearances around the ground I said that’s where we get exposed by Tim’s lack of strength and ability to compete. How is that so hard to understand???

I see the ability of the opposition to clear the area with a hit out, sit players outside the inner circle of the stoppage as an issue, because they get clean ball use and it allows them to transition without pressure. Majority of our clearances are contested and pressured and it can lead to our turnovers where we get opened up on counter attack.

A competitive ruck would at worst keep clearances contested which our mids thrive in beating their opponents and when we took a more man on man set up at stoppages in the last term we dominated. That’s where we ended up in front in clearances statistically but still cost us a goal that was the match winner.

You have zero idea of my playing and coaching credentials to say you have me easily covered in football knowledge and I never said I had more expertises than you. I said if you played and coached and understood football technically you would understand what I was saying. didn’t say you had to agree just that you would get what I am saying and you might not agree it’s an issue that’s fine but don’t try a pissing contest with me and keep telling me I’m moving the goal posts when I’ve said the same thing the whole time.
 
Dec 29, 2009
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Yep its how WE play.


But your issue is with HOW we play in general, as opposed to the ruck issue.

We don't play the way you suggest we should- we Do work too hard for our chances, but you know what, we had more than enough chances to win and win well.

In normal quarter lengths we would have-they kicked one last quarter goal, and that's fine, its not realistic to expect to keep the opposition goal less in a quarter.

Not really, I think we could structure better at stoppages and we tend to lack players on the outside of the stoppage.

My issue is that around the ground Tim’s inability to compete strength wise allows multiple times for the opposition ruck to clear the ball from our players and they get easy transition as a result and it relieves any pressure we had with field position.

If we had a more physically competitive ruck we could minimise that happening and we may also get some more easy clearance and transition ourselves. We have a dominate midfield that could be clearly best in the league if we could minimise the hit out losses and give our own players some easier ball. That’s doesn’t take a structure change it takes a personel change
 

Charlie Bucket

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I haven’t moved the goal posts at all, clearances are clearances. I said originally our issue is our stoppages around the ground, I never said we lose clearances around the ground I said that’s where we get exposed by Tim’s lack of strength and ability to compete. How is that so hard to understand???

I see the ability of the opposition to clear the area with a hit out, sit players outside the inner circle of the stoppage as an issue, because they get clean ball use and it allows them to transition without pressure. Majority of our clearances are contested and pressured and it can lead to our turnovers where we get opened up on counter attack.

A competitive ruck would at worst keep clearances contested which our mids thrive in beating their opponents and when we took a more man on man set up at stoppages in the last term we dominated. That’s where we ended up in front in clearances statistically but still cost us a goal that was the match winner.

You have zero idea of my playing and coaching credentials to say you have me easily covered in football knowledge and I never said I had more expertises than you. I said if you played and coached and understood football technically you would understand what I was saying. didn’t say you had to agree just that you would get what I am saying and you might not agree it’s an issue that’s fine but don’t try a pissing contest with me and keep telling me I’m moving the goal posts when I’ve said the same thing the whole time.

You’re right, clearances are clearances. And currently you don’t actually know how ineffective or effective they are going either way.

What we do know is that we are a pretty good stoppage team and have been for two years. We also know that we have decent inside 50 numbers and scores for.
We also know, for those that pay attention to our games that our costly turnovers are usually uncontested disposal across our half fwd line allowing teams to get out he back.

Turnovers from stoppages aren’t purely
a bulldogs thing and can usually be contributed to teams playing a high pressure game across the field. Not just around the stoppages and certainly not just because the oppo ruck gets a free hit on occasions.

I completely understand what you have been saying but see it as a reach to suggest what you have.

Your original comment was that our stoppage clearances are an issue and our centre clearances are not, statistically that’s far from the truth and unless you disagree on some of the stats I’ve mentioned above or have other stats backing your claims, you’re wrong.
 
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All those examples show is that a dominant clearance/stoppages midfield can overcome some or all of the deficit of a losing tap ruckman. Imaging that same midfield playing with a good tap ruckman though?

English relegates our midfield to having to win a ball that is never hit to their advantage - especially at around the ground stoppages.
Totally agree, our midfield is probably the best clearance midfield in the league. With a competent ruckman we would win
Haha Im tipping my credentials have yours covered D13.

You’re moving the goal posts again. Where’s your proof that our clearances are ineffective compared to our opposition? Where’s your proof that the opposition walk the ball out of the stoppages? The fact is you don’t know any of that. What you should know though, seeing as you watch our games, is that we are extreme effective at moving the ball away from stoppages. Our inside 50 counts and scores for are some way of proving that. I’m surprised you think otherwise.

You’re trying to use an unknown to prove your argument that our stoppage clearances are lacking.

You were factually incorrect and are now struggling to cop it on the chin.

So what are your credentials? If you are going to brag about them let’s see them? Most of us have probably coached at some capacity over the years.

most here appear to support the alternate view to yours. An opinion cannot be factually incorrect it is just an opinion. The only way we would know is we swapped rucks and see how Bont and Co would go with a dominant tap ruckman. I think we would finish top 4 and be a challenger. Of course there would be days the midfield is off and we lose but would far less frequent than now.
 
Dec 29, 2009
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You’re right, clearances are clearances. And currently you don’t actually know how ineffective or effective they are going either way.

What we do know is that we are a pretty good stoppage team and have been for two years. We also know that we have decent inside 50 numbers and scores for.
We also know, for those that pay attention to our games that our costly turnovers are usually uncontested disposal across our half fwd line allowing teams to get out he back.

Turnovers from stoppages aren’t purely
a bulldogs thing and can usually be contributed to teams playing a high pressure game across the field. Not just around the stoppages and certainly not just because the oppo ruck gets a free hit on occasions.

I completely understand what you have been saying but see it as a reach to suggest what you have.

Your original comment was that our stoppage clearances are an issue and our centre clearances are not, statistically that’s far from the truth and unless you disagree on some of the stats I’ve mentioned above or have other stats backing your claims, you’re wrong.

We are second in the league for scoring differential from centre clearances according to beveridge last night in the press conference that suggests centre clearances aren’t an issue, also English can not get our muscled in a centre clearance. Therefore I do not see it as an issue.

There are no states on effective clearances and ineffective clearances, so all you can do is judge by eye whether they are effective or ineffective?

We do win stoppages but I believe they are mostly contested with lots of handballs to get out of congestion, which our players are good at but we rarely seem to get the easy clearance where one handball and we are clear to kick, oppositions do get that type of clearance and it hurts us because unpressured disposals cut our zone to pieces. We work our backside off for goals but cough up easy ones through transition, a fair few of those transitions start at stoppages.

Turnovers aren’t limited to us but when your constantly under pressure at stoppages the likelihood of a turnover increases. Our lack of pressure forwards also hurt us in our turnovers and giving up easy transition because we lack applying pressure.

The easy transition of the opposition are generally as you say a turnover at half forward through and entry or the stoppages when the ball gets hit outside the inner circle of the stoppage because English can’t stop it happening because he lacks the strength to compete
 

Charlie Bucket

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Totally agree, our midfield is probably the best clearance midfield in the league. With a competent ruckman we would win


So what are your credentials? If you are going to brag about them let’s see them? Most of us have probably coached at some capacity over the years.

most here appear to support the alternate view to yours. An opinion cannot be factually incorrect it is just an opinion. The only way we would know is we swapped rucks and see how Bont and Co would go with a dominant tap ruckman. I think we would finish top 4 and be a challenger. Of course there would be days the midfield is off and we lose but would far less frequent than now.

You’re confused Maverick. If someone states they prefer an advantage in the centre clearance over the stoppage clearance, that’s an opinion. If someone states that a statistical kpi reads a certain way when in fact it reads the complete opposite, they are factually incorrect.
 

Mattdougie

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We have a lot of YETS on our list don't we?

it’s like people who try to compare a team that is poor at centre clearance even with an adequate ruck to a team that is good at clearances with an average ruck.

The tigers are poor at clearances because their players aren’t great at it even with a handy ruckman. Our mids are elite at clearances but have no ruck help at all most weeks.
The utter lack of footy knowledge by a couple in here that belittle anyone that differs to them is laughable.

oh and then accusing EVERYONE ELSE that they change the goal posts constantly without having a clue they flip flop all over the joint and then can’t admit it.

Our list after the tenth player is very average and below 20 is garbage
 

hutchy31

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Very deflated today, so disappointing to be beaten in a completely predictable way. Many others have articulated the main issues - the ruck is absolutely one imo, as is team selection and positioning - but the worst part about this is my waning confidence in the leadership at the club.

Bevo and the footy department are not putting the team in the best position to succeed. That’s my opinion but there are glaring issues with performance in big games and consistency in others that are way off the better clubs in the comp.

I’ll buy our three memberships next year, but if there is no movement on the ruck situation, Gowers/Gardner/others are selected when others on the list are treated more harshly or not given the same opportunity, and players are consistently played out of position (at small forward in particular) then I’ll lose all belief in the people running the club.

We have an obviously talented coach but he is underperforming. Maybe he needs more support, critique or something else but there are some talented footballers whose primes are being wasted.

This is all a bit morose and probably needs some perspective that time will provide. But if we start next year poorly, then grind out some wins, then finish well to squeak into finals and get bundled out again (or miss the eight completely) that’ll be enough evidence that the club is stagnating.
 

Optimistic Dog

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Should have, would have, could have. Yes saints did look the better side for 2 quarters. We broke even in the first and had the most dominant quarter of the game in last. I am sure we win in a full length game even with our problems. Not rocket science the majority of big footy bulldogs posters the unofficial selection committee got it right.

Gardner not up to it
Lipinski to soft
Richards does not get enough of it
Roarke Smith was not worst found wanting we needed
Bruce played the way he has done all season


Selections that could won us the game

Trengove for Gardner to play on Rhyder/Marshall when forward and help on the ruck
VDM for Lipinski
 
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