Coach Buckley to end AFL journey empty handed

[Red Black and Blue]

Another tall big bodied mid to compliment him for sure but we don’t need a clone.

Also find it odd you’d advocate for Treloar to go when he’s out best mid on the spread.

I think every side needs two pure hardball winners in the three man setup, one more defensively minded and one more attacking. Dangerfield/Martin type would be the dream but practically impossible to find. Jack Graham would be a good fit.

Treloar's been pretty bad this year. He used to break lines, post-hammy's he doesn't move fast enough and his kicking isn't up to scratch especially without the burst to catch zones out of position.

 

[mike123]

I think every side needs two pure hardball winners in the three man setup, one more defensively minded and one more attacking. Dangerfield/Martin type would be the dream but practically impossible to find. Jack Graham would be a good fit.

Treloar's been pretty bad this year. He used to break lines, post-hammy's he doesn't move fast enough and his kicking isn't up to scratch especially without the burst to catch zones out of position.

I’m not asking Dangerfield, Martin type just a type bigger than Adams. Would happily recruit another HBF and move Crisp back there to be that type.

Treloar didn’t have his best season but he certainly hasn’t been bad. I think he’ll benefit the most out from adding another ball winner into the mix, he’ll get more space on he outside. He doesn’t have the burst pace to break away from the contest any more but he’s still quick enough when he get the ball in space.

 

[Damon_3388]

I don't agree. You had the best performed team over two seasons and pushed ahead with a transition that may well have cost you the 2011 flag and hasn't delivered any such success since. I said at the time it could prove costly and it certainly has.

I advocated for Bucks to stay in charge a few years ago and be given the opportunity to see his rebuild through, but he's been at the helm nearly a decade now and it's been more fruitless than his predecessor, whom so many were keen to show the door after the same time period. Surely if Bucks doesn't do something significant next season, he doesn't get his contract renewed.

So with where the list was at by the end of 2015 (by which time the majority of the 2011 GF side had either retired, had the remainder of their careers wrecked by injury, or were on life support at other clubs), what would you have done?

 

[Damon_3388]

Treloar's been pretty bad this year. He used to break lines, post-hammy's he doesn't move fast enough and his kicking isn't up to scratch especially without the burst to catch zones out of position.

Treloar didn’t have his best season but he certainly hasn’t been bad. I think he’ll benefit the most out from adding another ball winner into the mix, he’ll get more space on he outside. He doesn’t have the burst pace to break away from the contest any more but he’s still quick enough when he get the ball in space.

Still managed to be 2nd in the league in disposals per game and contested possessions per game this year.

Similar to Chris Judd, because Treloar has or had great pace, and is a very "direct" player, people mistakenly think that he is or is meant to be an outside player. He's not. He's a quality inside ball winner whose vision and decision-making with the handball in traffic is his main and best weapon. Yes, his kicking is iffy, but he's one of the best in the league at creating by hand from stoppages and contested situations.

 

[Monkey King]

So with where the list was at by the end of 2015 (by which time the majority of the 2011 GF side had either retired, had the remainder of their careers wrecked by injury, or were on life support at other clubs), what would you have done?

It's easy to say stuff in hindsight. Not trade out of 2015 first round for Treloar and take a player like Charlie Curnow or Harry Mckay. Go hard at Charlie Dixon. Not traded for Beams and gone hard for the Lions top 5 pick instead to get one of the King's. But hindsight calls like that are useless as I'm not sure I wouldn't made them at the time.

One thing I wouldn't have done at the time was mess with the set up in 2011 when the team was dominant and instead, told Bucks to hang off another year or two for the good of the club. IMO a bad move that hasn't paid off. That said, it was a decision that was made and Buckley needed to be given time for his plan to come to fruition. He'll have been given a decade by the end of his next contract. So I'm curious given the "Mick had a decade" narrative from Pies posters back in 2011, if the same will be said of Buckley.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Still managed to be 2nd in the league in disposals per game and contested possessions per game this year.

Similar to Chris Judd, because Treloar has or had great pace, and is a very "direct" player, people mistakenly think that he is or is meant to be an outside player. He's not. He's a quality inside ball winner whose vision and decision-making with the handball in traffic is his main and best weapon. Yes, his kicking is iffy, but he's one of the best in the league at creating by hand from stoppages and contested situations.

He isn't a bad player by any stretch, but there is a considerable difference between the level he's at now vs previously. He was very ineffective, high for clangers and turnovers, low for score involvements (70th this year opposed to 17th in 2018). Whether or not that's a blip or post injury reality is yet to be seen, but the eye test says he's lost a bit physically. He might still be an above average AFL footballer, but the question is premiership calibre midfielder or not.

 

[Damon_3388]

It's easy to say stuff in hindsight. Not trade out of 2015 first round for Treloar and take a player like Charlie Curnow or Harry Mckay. Go hard at Charlie Dixon. Not traded for Beams and gone hard for the Lions top 5 pick instead to get one of the King's. But hindsight calls like that are useless as I'm not sure I wouldn't made them at the time.

So you would have re-built differently? That's great. You're moving the goalposts now, though, a nd avoiding the argument. What you described is not evidence of poor coaching or "destruction" of a primed, hungry, dominant teamfrom 2012-2015, nor does it refute that a rebuild was necessary by the end of 2015.

The Pies made the finals from 2006-2013, and that group peaked in 2010-2011. By the time the Pies fully committed to getting younger and rebuilding the list through drafting and trading at the end of 2015, it was completely necessary. The group was cooked by a taxing, physical gameplan and training regimen under Malthouse (the "Machine" basically fell over the line in the 2011 Prelim, and literally ran out of gas in the final quarter of the 2011 GF), and the decline (both mentally and physically) and injuries in 2012-2013 were in part a result of this.

Just because some people said something about Malthouse 10 years ago, that doesn't mean all Collingwood fans were in agreeance, nor does it mean that the same logic or thought process must be applied to the current situation. Times changes, things change, thoughts change. What would a coaching change do right now? Who is the candidate to put in place? Why would they necessarily do better right away?

 

[Damon_3388]

He isn't a bad player by any stretch, but there is a considerable difference between the level he's at now vs previously. He was very ineffective, high for clangers and turnovers, low for score involvements (70th this year opposed to 17th in 2018). Whether or not that's a blip or post injury reality is yet to be seen, but the eye test says he's lost a bit physically. He might still be an above average AFL footballer, but the question is premiership calibre midfielder or not.

I think he's got the capability of being a big part of a winning unit.

We've had very few games where Treloar, Adams, Pendlebury, and Sidebottom have all played together over the past 2-3 years. With more continuity, I feel like they'll all play better.

I'll just add too that changers are not turnovers. They're other unforced errors, like frees against, fumbles, OOTF, etc. They're still things you don't want a player doing, but they're separate from turnovers and ineffective disposals. It's a distinction that's often lost on people.

 

[Drought Break]

He didn't "take the team apart". They got old, injured, declined and retired. Have a look at the 2011 GF side, at their ages, and look where each of those players were at by the end of 2013, and tell me that a rebuiId wasn't necessary when it began at the end of 2015.

weren't we the youngest premiership team in history?. every team that wins a flag have a few old players that can easily be replaced

 

[Bungeye]

I seem to remember the Collingwood 2010 premiership side being one of the youngest ever teams!

How can you go from the youngest to a complete clean out a fews years later?

I wonder if getting rid of Mick Malthouse was due to tall poppy, or do we as Aussies not value experienced coaches.

It seems as soon as you turn 60 you're no good anymore.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

weren't we the youngest premiership team in history?. every team that wins a flag have a few old players that can easily be replaced

It was a young premiership side that then went bananas in 2011 until the destabilization by McG/Bucks in the last couple of months of the season wrecked things.

Buckley got himself out of a hole at the end of 2017 by embracing Damien Hardwick's coaching mantras, no reason why he can't re-invent himself and his game plan again.

The law of averages says you win a premiership once every 18 years, give Buck's another decade at the helm I would say he has a good chance to win a flag for the Pies.

 

[Drought Break]

Look at the 2011 GF side, and what happened to those players over the next couple of years. 1 of them retired at the end of 2011, and another 9 were 28 or older by the time the 2012 season started. A number of others had significant injuries and dramatic form drops or off-field issues. Half of that side was either gone from the club (most never to play great footy again, aside from one AA selections for Heath Shaw) or out of the AFL by the end of 2013. The group had peaked under Malthouse, and we're coming down the other side of the mountain in 2012 (where they were one bad quarter from another GF appearance) and 2013. By the end of 2015, what other choice was there but to rebuild?

This idea that some primed squad full of 25 year old peaking All-Australians was thrown away due to ego is not only inaccurate, but farcical and ridiculous.

mate the Core of our premiership team had the following players about to enter there prime. Pendlebury, Swan, Beams, Thomas, Sidebottom, Cloke, reid, n Brown, Dawes, Shaw with some decent role players as depth such as Wellingham, fasolo, Toovey, Mcaffer, Goldsack. Thats a list that should have built sustained success for years.

Fact is nearly all these players did not improve from there 2010, 11 season which is startling considering natural progression. Why could this be the case, surely not coaching?

Injuries to a few of them, yes that has been a constant theme for the last 10 years, what could be the reasons for this, continual bad luck?

Off field issues, once again why and why did many of these players not want to put in?

Surely we could have replaced a few ageing members of a side such as Jolly, Tarrant, Ball etc with some astute drafting. Every side does this, Hawthorn better than most over the same period. Why couldnt we have drafted in Hale, Mcevoy, Frawley, lake etc?

 

[Damon_3388]

weren't we the youngest premiership team in history?. every team that wins a flag have a few old players that can easily be replaced

mate the Core of our premiership team had the following players about to enter there prime. Pendlebury, Swan, Beams, Thomas, Sidebottom, Cloke, reid, n Brown, Dawes, Shaw with some decent role players as depth such as Wellingham, fasolo, Toovey, Mcaffer, Goldsack. Thats a list that should have built sustained success for years.

Fact is nearly all these players did not improve from there 2010, 11 season which is startling considering natural progression. Why could this be the case, surely not coaching?

Injuries to a few of them, yes that has been a constant theme for the last 10 years, what could be the reasons for this, continual bad luck?

Off field issues, once again why and why did many of these players not want to put in?

Surely we could have replaced a few ageing members of a side such as Jolly, Tarrant, Ball etc with some astute drafting. Every side does this, Hawthorn better than most over the same period. Why couldnt we have drafted in Hale, Mcevoy, Frawley, lake etc?

I seem to remember the Collingwood 2010 premiership side being one of the youngest ever teams!

How can you go from the youngest to a complete clean out a fews years later?

I wonder if getting rid of Mick Malthouse was due to tall poppy, or do we as Aussies not value experienced coaches.

It seems as soon as you turn 60 you're no good anymore.

The 2010 GF side was different to the 2011 GF side (which is where Buckley took over), and plenty of the players on the list either aged out, got career-destroying injuries, or declined significantly after 2011.

If anyone thinks there was another 2 premierships to be had right after 2011, then they really don't have an understanding of where the list was at, overrated the level of talent, and weren't really following how each individual player's career progressed.

Leigh Brown and Leon Davis were done at the end of 2011. Another 9 of the 22 players from the 2011 GF side were 28 or older by the start of the 2012 season. Chris Tarrant was done at the end of 2012. Alan Didak, Andrew Krakouer, Ben Johnson and Darren Jolly were done at the end of 2013. Luke Ball and Nick Maxwell were done at the end of 2014. Brent Macaffer, Dane Swan and Alan Toovey were done at the end of 2016. All that played on after 2011 had significant dips in form or significant or ongoing injuries woes before retirement. That's 11 players, half the team, from the 2011 GF side who simply came to the end of their footy life, nothing to do with Buckley. None played elsewhere after Collingwood.

Chris Dawes and Heritier Lumumba got Melbourne'd, Dale Thomas was a shadow of his former self at Carlton (was cooked before he left the Pies), Sharrod Wellingham and Travis Cloke spent half the time at their new clubs injured or battling mental health issues, and didn't really fire a shot when they played. Heath Shaw (one AA) has really been the only great success of players that were supposedly "pushed out in their prime". That makes another 7 players, who the Pies were all well compensated for in return. It could be said that Cloke and Shaw played out their prime years at Collingwood too. Would the side have been any better going forward (considering the players/picks they got in return), if they had clung to them? I doubt it. Alex Fasolo played his best footy at Collingwood, but never really amounted to much, and was eventually traded to Carlton too.

As for 2010 Premiership players who missed the 2011 GF, Dayne Beams had his best year of footy under Buckley in 2013 (B&F and AA, nearly winning the Brownlow too), spent a large part of 2014 injured, then suddenly chose to leave post-season. He had a injury-riddled time at Brisbane, and eventually returned without firing a shot. Brent Macaffer also played some of his best footy under Buckley, between long-term injuries and eventual retirement. Tyson Goldsack battled injuries, but also played some of the best footy of his career under Buckley. Nathan Brown continued to be either injured or rather mediocre, and was traded to St Kilda, and is retiring this year.

Who were we then left with? Injury-riddled Ben Reid, just not very good Jarryd Blair, Scott Pendlebury, and Steele Sidebottom.

The supposed "destruction" of the list had very little to do with Buckley's coaching or personal relationships, and a lot to do with players being ruined by injury or simply reaching their use-by date as quality footballers. I doubt Malthouse's presence would have changed this, and I doubt he would have stayed and seen through the necessary refresh/rebuild post-2013. If we'd hung onto those players and not made any moves whatsover, we'd have been just as mediocre during that 2014-2017 period, and would have had less of a future going forward, too.

 

[Tbonefreo]

The 2010 GF side was different to the 2011 GF side (which is where Buckley took over), and plenty of the players on the list either aged out, got career-destroying injuries, or declined significantly after 2011.

If anyone thinks there was another 2 premierships to be had right after 2011, then they really don't have an understanding of where the list was at, overrated the level of talent, and weren't really following how each individual player's career progressed.

Leigh Brown and Leon Davis were done at the end of 2011. Another 9 of the 22 players from the 2011 GF side were 28 or older by the start of the 2012 season. Chris Tarrant was done at the end of 2012. Alan Didak, Andrew Krakouer, Ben Johnson and Darren Jolly were done at the end of 2013. Luke Ball and Nick Maxwell were done at the end of 2014. Brent Macaffer, Dane Swan and Alan Toovey were done at the end of 2016. All that played on after 2011 had significant dips in form or significant or ongoing injuries woes before retirement. That's 11 players, half the team, from the 2011 GF side who simply came to the end of their footy life, nothing to do with Buckley. None played elsewhere after Collingwood.

Chris Dawes and Heritier Lumumba got Melbourne'd, Dale Thomas was a shadow of his former self at Carlton (was cooked before he left the Pies), Sharrod Wellingham and Travis Cloke spent half the time at their new clubs injured or battling mental health issues, and didn't really fire a shot when they played. Heath Shaw (one AA) has really been the only great success of players that were supposedly "pushed out in their prime". That makes another 7 players, who the Pies were all well compensated for in return. It could be said that Cloke and Shaw played out their prime years at Collingwood too. Would the side have been any better going forward (considering the players/picks they got in return), if they had clung to them? I doubt it.

Alex Fasolo played his best footy at Collingwood,but never really amounted to much, and was eventually traded to Carlton too.

As for 2010 Premiership players who missed the 2011 GF, Dayne Beams had his best year of footy under Buckley in 2013 (B&F and AA, nearly winning the Brownlow too), spent a large part of 2014 injured, then suddenly chose to leave post-season. He had a injury-riddled time at Brisbane, and eventually returned without firing a shot. Brent Macaffer also played some of his best footy under Buckley, between long-term injuries and eventual retirement. Tyson Goldsack battled injuries, but also played some of the best footy of his career under Buckley. Nathan Brown continued to be either injured or rather mediocre, and was traded to St Kilda, and is retiring this year.

Who were we then left with? Injury-riddled Ben Reid, just not very good Jarryd Blair, Scott Pendlebury, and Steele Sidebottom.

The supposed "destruction" of the list had very little to do with Buckley's coaching or personal relationships, and a lot to do with players being ruined by injury or simply reaching their use-by date as quality footballers. I doubt Malthouse's presence would have changed this, and I doubt he would have stayed and seen through the necessary refresh/rebuild post-2013. If we'd hung onto those players and not made any moves whatsover, we'd have been just as mediocre during that 2014-2017 period, and would have had less of a future going forward, too.

That was a quality analysis

 

[Bungeye]

The 2010 GF side was different to the 2011 GF side (which is where Buckley took over), and plenty of the players on the list either aged out, got career-destroying injuries, or declined significantly after 2011.

If anyone thinks there was another 2 premierships to be had right after 2011, then they really don't have an understanding of where the list was at, overrated the level of talent, and weren't really following how each individual player's career progressed.

Leigh Brown and Leon Davis were done at the end of 2011. Another 9 of the 22 players from the 2011 GF side were 28 or older by the start of the 2012 season. Chris Tarrant was done at the end of 2012. Alan Didak, Andrew Krakouer, Ben Johnson and Darren Jolly were done at the end of 2013. Luke Ball and Nick Maxwell were done at the end of 2014. Brent Macaffer, Dane Swan and Alan Toovey were done at the end of 2016. All that played on after 2011 had significant dips in form or significant or ongoing injuries woes before retirement. That's 11 players, half the team, from the 2011 GF side who simply came to the end of their footy life, nothing to do with Buckley. None played elsewhere after Collingwood.

Chris Dawes and Heritier Lumumba got Melbourne'd, Dale Thomas was a shadow of his former self at Carlton (was cooked before he left the Pies), Sharrod Wellingham and Travis Cloke spent half the time at their new clubs injured or battling mental health issues, and didn't really fire a shot when they played. Heath Shaw (one AA) has really been the only great success of players that were supposedly "pushed out in their prime". That makes another 7 players, who the Pies were all well compensated for in return. It could be said that Cloke and Shaw played out their prime years at Collingwood too. Would the side have been any better going forward (considering the players/picks they got in return), if they had clung to them? I doubt it.

Alex Fasolo played his best footy at Collingwood,but never really amounted to much, and was eventually traded to Carlton too.

As for 2010 Premiership players who missed the 2011 GF, Dayne Beams had his best year of footy under Buckley in 2013 (B&F and AA, nearly winning the Brownlow too), spent a large part of 2014 injured, then suddenly chose to leave post-season. He had a injury-riddled time at Brisbane, and eventually returned without firing a shot. Brent Macaffer also played some of his best footy under Buckley, between long-term injuries and eventual retirement. Tyson Goldsack battled injuries, but also played some of the best footy of his career under Buckley. Nathan Brown continued to be either injured or rather mediocre, and was traded to St Kilda, and is retiring this year.

Who were we then left with? Injury-riddled Ben Reid, just not very good Jarryd Blair, Scott Pendlebury, and Steele Sidebottom.

The supposed "destruction" of the list had very little to do with Buckley's coaching or personal relationships, and a lot to do with players being ruined by injury or simply reaching their use-by date as quality footballers. I doubt Malthouse's presence would have changed this, and I doubt he would have stayed and seen through the necessary refresh/rebuild post-2013. If we'd hung onto those players and not made any moves whatsover, we'd have been just as mediocre during that 2014-2017 period, and would have had less of a future going forward, too.

Leon davis had his best ever season in 2011!

Why weren't Buckley, Shaw and O'Brien on the same page? Surely, that's a player management problem!

Malthouse had no problems in delegating and keeping a cohesive team, despite the "big personalities".

 

[Damon_3388]

Leon davis had his best ever season in 2011!

And then never played at AFL level again, for any club.

Why weren't Buckley, Shaw and O'Brien on the same page? Surely, that's a player management problem!

Malthouse had no problems in delegating and keeping a cohesive team, despite the "big personalities".

Shaw and Lumumba's football also declined with their behaviour before leaving Collingwood. Their personality was beginning to affect their performance. It was "tolerated" under Malthouse, because it wasn't affecting their individual performance and the team.

You're clutching at straws if you think their decline/departures were the difference between some "missing dynasty", and what we eventually got.[/QUOTE]

 

[PieLebo87]

When Geelong bow out next week I'd totally be up for a no-questions-asked straight swap of Chris Scott and Mitch Duncan for Nathan Buckley and Steele Sidebottom.

Don’t be silly... We need Tomahawk more than we need Mitch Duncan.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Don’t be silly... We need Tomahawk more than we need Mitch Duncan.

that wasn't part of the deal!

 

[Bungeye]

And then never played at AFL level again, for any club.



Shaw and Lumumba's football also declined with their behaviour before leaving Collingwood. Their personality was beginning to affect their performance. It was "tolerated" under Malthouse, because it wasn't affecting their individual performance and the team.

You're clutching at straws if you think their decline/departures were the difference between some "missing dynasty", and what we eventually got.

[/QUOTE]
Well in that case Leon Cameron is obviously the superior player manager who got the best out of Heath Shaw and turned him into a leader, a general down back winning multiple All Australians.

With lumumba, there was obviously some racial tension going on that was bubbling beneath the surface and Buckley was not proactive at all to do anything about it.

By the way, it was Collingwoods unwillingness to offer the money they weren't prepared to give! For Leon Davis it was being a one club player or an early retirement at home in WA.

Buckley has alot of questions unanswered and I doubt we will never know, due to his inherent stubbornness

 

[Drought Break]

The 2010 GF side was different to the 2011 GF side (which is where Buckley took over), and plenty of the players on the list either aged out, got career-destroying injuries, or declined significantly after 2011.

If anyone thinks there was another 2 premierships to be had right after 2011, then they really don't have an understanding of where the list was at, overrated the level of talent, and weren't really following how each individual player's career progressed.

Leigh Brown and Leon Davis were done at the end of 2011. Another 9 of the 22 players from the 2011 GF side were 28 or older by the start of the 2012 season. Chris Tarrant was done at the end of 2012. Alan Didak, Andrew Krakouer, Ben Johnson and Darren Jolly were done at the end of 2013. Luke Ball and Nick Maxwell were done at the end of 2014. Brent Macaffer, Dane Swan and Alan Toovey were done at the end of 2016. All that played on after 2011 had significant dips in form or significant or ongoing injuries woes before retirement. That's 11 players, half the team, from the 2011 GF side who simply came to the end of their footy life, nothing to do with Buckley. None played elsewhere after Collingwood.

Chris Dawes and Heritier Lumumba got Melbourne'd, Dale Thomas was a shadow of his former self at Carlton (was cooked before he left the Pies), Sharrod Wellingham and Travis Cloke spent half the time at their new clubs injured or battling mental health issues, and didn't really fire a shot when they played. Heath Shaw (one AA) has really been the only great success of players that were supposedly "pushed out in their prime". That makes another 7 players, who the Pies were all well compensated for in return. It could be said that Cloke and Shaw played out their prime years at Collingwood too. Would the side have been any better going forward (considering the players/picks they got in return), if they had clung to them? I doubt it. Alex Fasolo played his best footy at Collingwood, but never really amounted to much, and was eventually traded to Carlton too.

As for 2010 Premiership players who missed the 2011 GF, Dayne Beams had his best year of footy under Buckley in 2013 (B&F and AA, nearly winning the Brownlow too), spent a large part of 2014 injured, then suddenly chose to leave post-season. He had a injury-riddled time at Brisbane, and eventually returned without firing a shot. Brent Macaffer also played some of his best footy under Buckley, between long-term injuries and eventual retirement. Tyson Goldsack battled injuries, but also played some of the best footy of his career under Buckley. Nathan Brown continued to be either injured or rather mediocre, and was traded to St Kilda, and is retiring this year.

Who were we then left with? Injury-riddled Ben Reid, just not very good Jarryd Blair, Scott Pendlebury, and Steele Sidebottom.

The supposed "destruction" of the list had very little to do with Buckley's coaching or personal relationships, and a lot to do with players being ruined by injury or simply reaching their use-by date as quality footballers. I doubt Malthouse's presence would have changed this, and I doubt he would have stayed and seen through the necessary refresh/rebuild post-2013. If we'd hung onto those players and not made any moves whatsover, we'd have been just as mediocre during that 2014-2017 period, and would have had less of a future going forward, too.

So have just checked our GF team from 2011 and there ages at the time.



These "old" players include
L Brown 29
n Maxwell 28
D Swan 27
B Johnson 30
A Didak 28
L Ball 27
D Jolly 30
A Krakour 28
L Davis 30
Chris tarrant, turned 31 a week before the GF

hardly career finishing ages. Ablett who played last night is actually the same age as Luke Ball and Dane swan.

I guess the big question is why did most of those players want to pull the pin so early and why did a number of our young guns want to leave (beams, Thomas, Shaw)

 

[Damon_3388]

Well in that case Leon Cameron is obviously the superior player manager who got the best out of Heath Shaw and turned him into a leader, a general down back winning multiple All Australians.

Shaw was well off the boil, on and off the field at age 28 in 2013. Credit to him and those around him for getting things on track, and playing good footy afterwards, but it wasn't looking like that would happen at the time he was traded. We got a young former first round draft pick and future All-Australian (and next captain of the club) in Taylor Adams in return, so I think we did alright out of the deal.

With lumumba, there was obviously some racial tension going on that was bubbling beneath the surface and Buckley was not proactive at all to do anything about it.

Well none of us really know what was truly going on behind the scenes. I don't think anyone can really cover themselves in glory, but if Lumumba was playing his best football at the time, I'm sure it would have been able to be worked through better too. It's not like he did anything at Melbourne to make anyone at Collingwood really rue his departure, either.

By the way, it was Collingwoods unwillingness to offer the money they weren't prepared to give! For Leon Davis it was being a one club player or an early retirement at home in WA.

Did any other clubs even make an offer? Seems like he was just as happy to retire and go back to WA as he was to continue his AFL career.

Buckley has alot of questions unanswered and I doubt we will never know, due to his inherent stubbornness

Know him personally, do you?

 

[Damon_3388]

So have just checked our GF team from 2011 and there ages at the time.

View attachment 982687

These "old" players include
L Brown 29
n Maxwell 28
D Swan 27
B Johnson 30
A Didak 28
L Ball 27
D Jolly 30
A Krakour 28
L Davis 30
Chris tarrant, turned 31 a week before the GF

hardly career finishing ages. Ablett who played last night is actually the same age as Luke Ball and Dane swan.

I guess the big question is why did most of those players want to pull the pin so early and why did a number of our young guns want to leave (beams, Thomas, Shaw)

As I've already outlined, most of those older players played out their careers at Collingwood, and just faded out due to age and injury.

Beams had been mentally and physically questionable since he won the B&F in 2013. Thomas was cooked with injury before he left Collingwood. Shaw was mentally cooked and was declining on field at age 28 when he left (and we got good value in return).

Not that complicated, but it's easier to just assume incompetence of one person caused it all, I guess.

 

[Ron The Bear]

2010 premiership team is the youngest in the last 41 years, although 2010 Collingwood wasn't particularly young by that year's standard. Collingwood went from 4th oldest in 2011 to 13th oldest in Buckley's first year. 2012 was definitely a watershed.

Year	Avg Age	Diff to other 17 clubs	Age Rank	Ladder
2010	24.78	+0.22	6th	1st
2011	25.06	+0.66	4th	2nd
2012	24.28	-0.32	13th	4th
2013	25.19	+0.46	8th	8th
2014	24.73	-0.25	13th	11th
2015	24.18	-0.92	15th	12th
2016	24.32	-0.91	15th	12th
2017	24.91	-0.20	13th	13th
2018	24.91	-0.16	11th	2nd
2019	26.20	+0.97	4th	4th
2020	26.15	+0.60	5th	6th

At face value the top four finish in 2012 was a great effort. People will question however whether it was a legacy of the Malthouse culture, as they do with Geelong/Thompson/Scott in 2011.

 

[Drought Break]

As I've already outlined, most of those older players played out their careers at Collingwood, and just faded out due to age and injury.

Beams had been mentally and physically questionable since he won the B&F in 2013. Thomas was cooked with injury before he left Collingwood. Shaw was mentally cooked and was declining on field at age 28 when he left (and we got good value in return).

Not that complicated, but it's easier to just assume incompetence of one person caused it all, I guess.

I guess your right, the fact that half of the list were not Buckley fans and retired early or left the club barely played a role. Shaw and Beams the 2 you just mentioned played some very good footy for other clubs. mate i wish things worked out different and have a lot of time for Buckley but to hand over a premiership list to a coach with zero experience who was not popular with the majority of the players was a diabolical error.

 

[Damon_3388]

I guess your right, the fact that half of the list were not Buckley fans and retired early or left the club barely played a role. Shaw and Beams the 2 you just mentioned played some very good footy for other clubs. mate i wish things worked out different and have a lot of time for Buckley but to hand over a premiership list to a coach with zero experience who was not popular with the majority of the players was a diabolical error.

The narrative that the majority retired early or left the club because of Buckley is flat out incorrect.

As I've already detailed, many of them finished up as Collingwood players, and had injury-affected final years in the AFL. Those that didn't, either didn't come back to hurt us (because they didn't play good footy for other clubs), or we were handsomely compensated for in trades (Taylor Adams, Jack Crisp, the pick that eventually became De Goey).

I'm not sure it would have turned out any better if we'd just clung to Malthouse forever and a day.