Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

[fidstar]

And if you do want to use the number of 50ppg thing, then lets do that (even though it's a fairly pointless exercise). The number of 50 points games have tripled.

So MJ would have 12 50 point games. You can do some basic math to work out that doesn't mean he's averaging 50ppg.

 

[Caesar]

 

[QuietB]

Jordan had a career average of nearly 32ppg before his Wizards years dragged that down to 30ppg. If you think hes getting Harden type number in today's game that's about 5ppg more than his career average.

In a league massively offense orientated and in a league so soft you live at the FT line.

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
LeBron career free throws (1,265 games) = 7,404

So soft

Let's not forget maryjames said Jordan was going to almost double his rebounds and was going to more than double his assists as well. It is fairy land stuff.

There are lots of arguments that Jordan is the GOAT. But you do not need to resort to outright hyperbole to present your argument.

 

[jod23]

I gave you numbers before based on his best season on points per 100 possessions.

You're also not rating in that people play less minutes today (I know you'll say "But MJ will play 40 minutes a night", so I'll jump in now and say "No he wouldn't").

Jordan isn't scoring 1.3-1.5pp minute on the court.

Harden is a unique scorer. Only behind Wilt and Jordan in regular season volume scoring. Averaging 5ppg more than the field is freakish.

Taking Harden out of the equation (as he is so unique) and comparing to the third highest scorer, Jordan typically averaged 5ppg more than the third highest scorer back in his peak scoring days. I imagine it would be about the same now.

In regards to your "number of 50 points per game", that has to do with people getting hot from 3.

You're only moving his statistics and putting it into today's game but not taking into account how the game has changed. You can use his points per 100 possessions which is fine but that's points per 100 possessions in his era. His points per 100 possessions in this era would sky rocket.

You're a massive MJ fan like me so we both know if he played today he wouldn't be Steph from deep but he would be very, very good from downtown. People try to make that a knock on Jordan, that he wasnt a good three point shooter, but history wise Jordan sits right in the middle for 3pt%. He was an average three point shooter, not a good one, not a bad one. Right in the middle. We both know Jordan has impeccable technique and the best jump shot inside the three point line probably ever. So it's just stepping out, he'd perfect it for sure.

Jordan was averaging those PPG numbers on probably 95% two point shots and trip to the line. Over his career he averaged 1.7 attempts from deep per game. Harden attempted 12.4 per game this season just gone. So you bring Jordan forward with a perfected three point shot, jacking up 10 a game, his ability to drive and score, his mid range game, his post game, the super soft league and how many AND1's he would get and trip to the line.

He'd go nuts. I think you're forgetting how good he was offensively. He's not James Harden, he's Michael Jordan.

Oh and you can get 50 points in this league and shoot 28% from the field, Harden did a year or so ago. Jordan doesnt shoot that poorly.

You also said he would by average looking at the numbers manage 12 50 points games and that doesnt equate to averaging 50 but it wouldnt be 12 exact games of 50. He could get 60? 70? Who knows...

50ppg might be a stretch but I could easily see Jordan averaging 45ppg in today's NBA.

 

[jod23]

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
LeBron career free throws (1,265 games) = 7,404

So soft

Let's not forget maryjames said Jordan was going to almost double his rebounds and was going to more than double his assists as well. It is fairy land stuff.

There are lots of arguments that Jordan is the GOAT. But you do not need to resort to outright hyperbole to present your argument.

LeBron isnt the right comparison for FT attempts. He isnt a similar player in terms or play style.

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
Harden career free throws (833 games) = 7,336

In 250 less games Harden has already taken more free throws than Jordan did in his entire career. Jordan would LIVE at the line. Even more than Harden does today.

As for assists and rebounds I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds but they would definitely go up. The pace of the game and the all out offence and the 30 or so three pointers taken every game means rebounds, rebounds, rebounds. Also the way the NBA is now and if you cant shoot the three, you basically dont play, then that means more shooters for Jordan to pass to for assists.

They would go up, they wouldnt double but they would definitely go up!

 

[PhatBoy]

Jordan had a career average of nearly 32ppg before his Wizards years dragged that down to 30ppg. If you think hes getting Harden type number in today's game that's about 5ppg more than his career average.

In a league massively offense orientated and in a league so soft you live at the FT line.

Well straight away I could call out something you (I think it was you - apologies if it wasn't) posted - about him averaging 11-11 boards and assists.

to score the sort of numbers you are suggesting, the extra points and shots that his team would score, are ALL going to come through him, no-one else. So where are these extra assists coming from? It's more than double his career number.

if he's taking so many more shots, getting fouled so much more often, and scoring so many more points, where is he going to magically double his per-game assist output?

 

[QuietB]

You're only moving his statistics and putting it into today's game but not taking into account how the game has changed. You can use his points per 100 possessions which is fine but that's points per 100 possessions in his era. His points per 100 possessions in this era would sky rocket.

You're a massive MJ fan like me so we both know if he played today he wouldn't be Steph from deep but he would be very, very good from downtown. People try to make that a knock on Jordan, that he wasnt a good three point shooter, but history wise Jordan sits right in the middle for 3pt%. He was an average three point shooter, not a good one, not a bad one. Right in the middle. We both know Jordan has impeccable technique and the best jump shot inside the three point line probably ever. So it's just stepping out, he'd perfect it for sure.

Jordan was averaging those PPG numbers on probably 95% two point shots and trip to the line. Over his career he averaged 1.7 attempts from deep per game. Harden attempted 12.4 per game this season just gone. So you bring Jordan forward with a perfected three point shot, jacking up 10 a game, his ability to drive and score, his mid range game, his post game, the super soft league and how many AND1's he would get and trip to the line.

He'd go nuts. I think you're forgetting how good he was offensively. He's not James Harden, he's Michael Jordan.

Oh and you can get 50 points in this league and shoot 28% from the field, Harden did a year or so ago. Jordan doesnt shoot that poorly.

You also said he would by average looking at the numbers manage 12 50 points games and that doesnt equate to averaging 50 but it would be 12 exact games of 50. He could get 60? 70? Who knows...

50ppg might be a stretch but I could easily see Jordan averaging 45ppg in today's NBA.

Scoring has increased (except it hasn't).

This means Jordan would increase his scoring average by 50%.

Who could possibly argue with that logic

For the record;

NBA average score 1990/1991 - 106.3
NBA average score 2018/2019 - 106.3

 

[PhatBoy]

LeBron isnt the right comparison for FT attempts. He isnt a similar player in terms or play style.

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
Harden career free throws (833 games) = 7,336

In 250 less games Harden has already taken more free throws than Jordan did in his entire career. Jordan would LIVE at the line. Even more than Harden does today.

As for assists and rebounds I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds but they would definitely go up. The pace of the game and the all out offence and the 30 or so three pointers taken every game means rebounds, rebounds, rebounds. Also the way the NBA is now and if you cant shoot the three, you basically dont play, then that means more shooters for Jordan to pass to for assists.

They would go up, they wouldnt double but they would definitely go up!

I'm not a big enough stats geek to know how to find out overall totals but pre-Wizards Jordan's FG percentage was over .500. Harden's is closer to .400.

Wouldn't that suggest he's taking a lot more shots per game, therefore his chances of getting fouled and going to the line increase?

 

[jod23]

Well straight away I could call out something you (I think it was you - apologies if it wasn't) posted - about him averaging 11-11 boards and assists.

to score the sort of numbers you are suggesting, the extra points and shots that his team would score, are ALL going to come through him, no-one else. So where are these extra assists coming from? It's more than double his career number.

if he's taking so many more shots, getting fouled so much more often, and scoring so many more points, where is he going to magically double his per-game assist output?

Well for starters it wasnt me that said he would double his assist numbers. I've already said above I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds. His numbers across the board would go up though by quite a lot.

 

[QuietB]

LeBron isnt the right comparison for FT attempts. He isnt a similar player in terms or play style.

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
Harden career free throws (833 games) = 7,336

In 250 less games Harden has already taken more free throws than Jordan did in his entire career. Jordan would LIVE at the line. Even more than Harden does today.

As for assists and rebounds I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds but they would definitely go up. The pace of the game and the all out offence and the 30 or so three pointers taken every game means rebounds, rebounds, rebounds. Also the way the NBA is now and if you cant shoot the three, you basically dont play, then that means more shooters for Jordan to pass to for assists.

They would go up, they wouldnt double but they would definitely go up!

So now your argument is Jordan would be a flopper in todays league?

 

[PhatBoy]

Well for starters it wasnt me that said he would double his assist numbers. I've already said above I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds. His numbers across the board would go up though by quite a lot.

yeah i went back and realised it wasn't you - my bad.

 

[jod23]

I'm not a big enough stats geek to know how to find out overall totals but pre-Wizards Jordan's FG percentage was over .500. Harden's is closer to .400.

Wouldn't that suggest he's taking a lot more shots per game, therefore his chances of getting fouled and going to the line increase?

Harden's career FG % is closer to 44% but % dont measure how many shots you take. Harden could take 10 shots and hit 4 and average 40% or he could take 100 shots and hit 40 and still average 40%.

Harden lives at the line is all I'm saying, Jordan would basically buy the free throw line and own it and just rent it out on weekends to people.

 

[jod23]

So now your argument is Jordan would be a flopper in todays league?

 

[QuietB]

Harden's career FG % is closer to 44% but % dont measure how many shots you take. Harden could take 10 shots and hit 4 and average 40% or he could take 100 shots and hit 40 and still average 40%.

Harden lives at the line is all I'm saying, Jordan would basically buy the free throw line and own it and just rent it out on weekends to people.

Close to 50% of Hardens career shoot attempts are from 3.

I feel dirty defending him

 

[PhatBoy]

Harden's career FG % is closer to 44% but % dont measure how many shots you take. Harden could take 10 shots and hit 4 and average 40% or he could take 100 shots and hit 40 and still average 40%.

Harden lives at the line is all I'm saying, Jordan would basically buy the free throw line and own it and just rent it out on weekends to people.

Yes I understand that but if he's posting 30+ PPG over a lengthy career, at that percentage, it would suggest he's taking a lot more shots would it not?

 

[jod23]

Scoring has increased (except it hasn't).

This means Jordan would increase his scoring average by 50%.

Who could possibly argue with that logic

For the record;

NBA average score 1990/1991 - 106.3
NBA average score 2018/2019 - 106.3

You can cherry pick years... look at 97/98 a year Jordan won a chip. League average 95.6.

 

[jod23]

Yes I understand that but if he's posting 30+ PPG over a lengthy career, at that percentage, it would suggest he's taking a lot more shots would it not?

Yeah absolutely, Jordan is FAR more efficient that James Harden, that's part of my argument. Harden, almost a chucker in today's league can average 36ppg. Jordan with his efficiency could easily average 45ppg+ IMO.

 

[jod23]

Close to 50% of Hardens career shoot attempts are from 3.

I feel dirty defending him

It's pretty gross, but thats the state of the league. You drop Jordan into this league and I'm sure he'd be shooting 10 three's a game too.

 

[AngryRanga]

You're a massive MJ fan like me so we both know if he played today he wouldn't be Steph from deep but he would be very, very good from downtown. People try to make that a knock on Jordan, that he wasnt a good three point shooter, but history wise Jordan sits right in the middle for 3pt%. He was an average three point shooter, not a good one, not a bad one. Right in the middle. We both know Jordan has impeccable technique and the best jump shot inside the three point line probably ever. So it's just stepping out, he'd perfect it for sure.

This is just pulling s**t from the sky. He shot low 30% on low volume, including the years they brought the 3 point line in. Two-motion jumpshots aren't "impeccable" for 3 point shooting. Jordan played for 15 seasons and you still have to manufacture things that weren't there.

LeBron isnt the right comparison for FT attempts. He isnt a similar player in terms or play style.

Jordan career free throws (1,072 games) = 7,327
Harden career free throws (833 games) = 7,336

In 250 less games Harden has already taken more free throws than Jordan did in his entire career. Jordan would LIVE at the line. Even more than Harden does today.

As for assists and rebounds I dont think he would double his assists and rebounds but they would definitely go up. The pace of the game and the all out offence and the 30 or so three pointers taken every game means rebounds, rebounds, rebounds. Also the way the NBA is now and if you cant shoot the three, you basically dont play, then that means more shooters for Jordan to pass to for assists.

They would go up, they wouldnt double but they would definitely go up!

Harden is a better scorer than Jordan ever was, if you'd like to ignore era-relative style analysis, as you have been. Therefore it seems a stretch that Jordan would suddenly top him in one of his elite skills, drawing fouls.

 

[QuietB]

You can cherry pick years... look at 97/98 a year Jordan won a chip. League average 95.6.

And 1980/81 was 108.1. Everything was around that mark for the next handful of years. I don't think scoring has actually changed all that much. How teams score has changed.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah absolutely, Jordan is FAR more efficient that James Harden, that's part of my argument. Harden, almost a chucker in today's league can average 36ppg. Jordan with his efficiency could easily average 45ppg+ IMO.

I think from the field he probably could but your argument about his PPG output increasing relates largely to the notion that fouls get called more often now - your supporting evidence for this being the fact that Harden has been to the stripe more often than Jorden in about 2.5 seasons' less games.

But the numbers suggest that fouls aren't getting called necessarily more harshly for Harden, merely that he takes more shots so he is naturally going to go to the line more.

 

[jod23]

This is just pulling sh*t from the sky. He shot low 30% on low volume, including the years they brought the 3 point line in. Two-motion jumpshots aren't "impeccable" for 3 point shooting. Jordan played for 15 seasons and you still have to manufacture things that weren't there.



Harden is a better scorer than Jordan ever was, if you'd like to ignore era-relative style analysis, as you have been. Therefore it seems a stretch that Jordan would suddenly top him in one of his elite skills, drawing fouls.

I've already argued the 3PT% which he shot for his career at 33% which again is average. Right down the middle. He wasnt a poor a three point shooter. Jordan has elite mentality. Everyone recognises how the game is played today with the three point shot so you think Jordan wouldnt work on it all summer, come back and suddenly be a pretty deadly shooter from deep. You're crazy if you think otherwise.

He never made his three point shot a weapon as it just wasnt a shot that was important when he played. It was almost a novelty, teams had like that one guy on their team that could shoot three's. It's a completely different game today and Jordan would no doubt adapt, he's absolutely a good enough shooter and technique wise to be very good from deep.

You second sentence is... I dont know... hilarious. I cant even reply to it properly because you started by saying Harden is a better scorer than Jordan ever was. ******* lol.

 

[jod23]

I think from the field he probably could but your argument about his PPG output increasing relates largely to the notion that fouls get called more often now - your supporting evidence for this being the fact that Harden has been to the stripe more often than Jorden in about 2.5 seasons' less games.

But the numbers suggest that fouls aren't getting called necessarily more harshly for Harden, merely that he takes more shots so he is naturally going to go to the line more.

You make a fair point but unfortunately the numbers dont back it up.

Jordan over his career averaged 22.9 shot attempts per game.

Harden's numbers are obscured because he was 6th man and bench player his first three years in the league but let's take his last three years in Houston when he has really risen to superstar status and right on the money... 22 shot attempts per game for Harden too.

So it's not about how many shots with Harden's ability to get to the line. That's more about how soft the league is and how much easier it is to get to the line, to get AND1 opportunities etc. Jordan would feast on how soft the league has become.

 

[QuietB]

 

[jod23]

******* hell that was awful! Haha

Nick Wright is an idiot though. You could tell how ridiculous everything he was saying was by how much everyone else is laughing at him haha.